Thinking about it, it would make a kind of sense if Ebby's fetich was somehow sealed outside Malfeas rather than within it; like how Oramus' wings had to be used to keep him bound, you'd need something a bit extra to keep Ebby contained given that freedom from constraints is an essential part of his nature. Therefore, by the concept "Be That Which I Am Not", his fetich would by being free from Hell and forever bound outside of it more thoroughly define the Ebon Dragon as trapped in Hell and forever bound within it.
 
Which makes the Fetich Soul as a thing of virtue and sunlight make even more sense, because what would be more forbidden to the Souls of the Ebon Dragon than his nemesis. (It would also probably be a lie, a false guise created by the Dragon's heart to mask it's true self.)
Nah. The fetich soul defines the Yozi - I've seen a lot of "sunlight fetiches", but it really just doesn't work all that well - the Ebon Dragon opposes sunlight, it's not going to be his innermost heart. He's not opposed to himself; that's more 2e "backstab and betray everything even me ahahaha" stuff. Malfeas is defined by his self-hatred, but Ligier is still fundamentally akin to him, and if he hates Malfeas too then that's an expression of how they are identical in that respect. Freedom from constraints isn't in Ebby's nature, struggle against them is - hell, he wanted the Unconquered Sun to exist so that he'd have a thing to oppose and reject him.

No, the Dragon's fetich is more likely to be thematically dark and cold and feminine and passive - a yin demon, after all - who's very, very hard to find. After all, if you're looking for her, then wherever you want to find her is - almost by definition - where she won't want to be.
 
I'm reminded of that time @MJ12 Commando proposed an Exalted system in which the 'core' of combat was about groups and armies, with war having the most complexity and personal-scale combat being resolved quickly and simply, possibly with a single-roll system. The rationale was, as I recall, that Exalted was a game about the bigger picture, about the scale of kings and nations.

And that struck me as completely out of touch with all Exalted fans I knew outside here? Not just the OPP boards where I sometimes hang out, not just my players, just... everyone else. I'm not saying there wouldn't be an audience for this game - there certainly would - but that audience wouldn't be the people who have been playing Exalted so far.

This is actually a condemnation of Exalted, not a defense. Exalted, as a setting, has been a conscious deliberate rejection of D&D-style murderhoboing and just getting into endless personal fights. The fact that none of its players are doing that means that it's failed to get those themes and points across very well, and people are largely playing it for contrarian interpretations suggests issues. It'd be like putting me in charge of Mage the Ascension Third Edition and then whispering into my ear to put my pro-Technocracy view into the Traditions-default corebook. :V

But worse, actually-bias can easily be rewritten, fluff can be ignored, discarded, or changed more easily than rules for the vast majority of STs.

And the funny thing is that Exalted's focus on being large-scale combat is actually correct. Exalted is deliberately designed so peer-level opponents have classically been rare and nearly eternally unavailable (slow travel and a large, uncivilized map). You literally represent, as a player group, something like a half-percent of the peer-level opponents (celestials in general, not just solaroids) in the entirety of all Creation and everything else. The default combat resolution engine should make it easy to smash 1000 guys rather than single duels, because the vast majority of threats you'll actually face will be more akin to '1000 guys in a blob' rather than 'one invincible sword princess.' Even against peer opponents because of Solar superiority your 'peer opponent' is more likely '1 guy about 90% as badass as you and 500 guys in a blob.'

The point of the suggestion was to make the battle group the default, with individual characters being exceptions to the battlegroup, rather than vice versa-and with the suggested 'perfect circle' likely having one combatant and four guys who are not nearly as good, this would actually be better by allowing the circle to form up into voltron versus four guys contributing little and 1 guy doing all the fite.
 
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No, the Dragon's fetich is more likely to be thematically dark and cold and feminine and passive - a yin demon, after all - who's very, very hard to find. After all, if you're looking for her, then wherever you want to find her is - almost by definition - where she won't want to be.

Hmm....

Right now, I'm picturing TED's Fetich to have a likeness to the Unconquered Sun in appearance, including the four arms, but also has something of a barring akin to Luna's.

But where Luna is the mingling of light and dark, TED's Fetich is simply darkness.

One of my first instincts is that she is a Black Moon that hides in the night sky, but I'm not entirely sure of that.

For some reason, I'm seeing her looking at The Unconquered Sun as a son of her's(and maybe Ligier, even though I normally see him more as Sol's older brother). Something like Nyx in Greek Mythology who gave birth to Aether (Brightness) and Hemera (Day), maybe.

Probably fits fairly well on the "passive" bits. Nyx, despite being powerful enough that even Zeus wouldn't challenge her, didn't really do anything of note in myth AFAIK.
 
No, the Dragon's fetich is more likely to be thematically dark and cold and feminine and passive - a yin demon, after all - who's very, very hard to find. After all, if you're looking for her, then wherever you want to find her is - almost by definition - where she won't want to be.
I'm honestly not entirely sure why, but this makes me think his fetich looks like Homura.
 
This is actually a condemnation of Exalted, not a defense. Exalted, as a setting, has been a conscious deliberate rejection of D&D-style murderhoboing and just getting into endless personal fights. The fact that none of its players are doing that means that it's failed to get those themes and points across very well, and people are largely playing it for contrarian interpretations suggests issues. It'd be like putting me in charge of Mage the Ascension Third Edition and then whispering into my ear to put my pro-Technocracy view into the Traditions-default corebook. :V

But worse, actually-bias can easily be rewritten, fluff can be ignored, discarded, or changed more easily than rules for the vast majority of STs.

And the funny thing is that Exalted's focus on being large-scale combat is actually correct. Exalted is deliberately designed so peer-level opponents have classically been rare and nearly eternally unavailable (slow travel and a large, uncivilized map). You literally represent, as a player group, something like a half-percent of the peer-level opponents (celestials in general, not just solaroids) in the entirety of all Creation and everything else. The default combat resolution engine should make it easy to smash 1000 guys rather than single duels, because the vast majority of threats you'll actually face will be more akin to '1000 guys in a blob' rather than 'one invincible sword princess.' Even against peer opponents because of Solar superiority your 'peer opponent' is more likely '1 guy about 90% as badass as you and 500 guys in a blob.'

The point of the suggestion was to make the battle group the default, with individual characters being exceptions to the battlegroup, rather than vice versa-and with the suggested 'perfect circle' likely having one combatant and four guys who are not nearly as good, this would actually be better by allowing the circle to form up into voltron versus four guys contributing little and 1 guy doing all the fite.
That is completely backwards, man.

Exalted has always been a deliberate rejection of D&D-style murderhoboing - by emphasizing the consequences of your actions, the difficulties of toppling massive empires with lone individualism, sure.

It's also always, always, always been a magical kung fu game depicting pitched battles between small group of magical super-warriors and epic duels of peers.

Hell, one of its setting conceit is that if you get too obvious with your powers, magical kung fu masters will come to fight you. Said magical kung fu masters (which are playable) also frequently go around beating up gods and demons in magical kung fu battles. The masters of Heaven who want you dead prefer to act as manipulators behind the scenes, but once you unveil their plans and confront them, they also the best at magical kung fu. The 'default' splat is designed as 'the best fighters in whatever combat style you choose,' and the three default antagonist splats for them are quirky elemental miniboss squads that aren't a match for you one on one, your literal evil twin with darkness power, and magical werewolves.

And that's without getting into the thousand kind of huge monsters from outside the world for your group to tackle in epic Shadow of the Colossus battles.

Your vision of Exalted has just never been what the game intended to be. You are right that the game deliberately rejects some traditional RPG elements, but you're utterly wrong about how it rejects them. Namely, you are trying to make it a game about how kung fu peer battles don't shape the world, so you don't have those battles and instead act on the scale of armies and nations. Rather, Exalted has always been a game about how kung fu peer battles don't shape the world, and yet you have them anyway.

Everything - the rules, the fiction, the fluff, the setting material - has always been angled towards making Exalted a game in which your Solars have pitched personal-scale battles - not only battles of arms, but also battles of the mind, social confrontations, individual crafting projects - and these are the main focus of the narrative. Yes, you're supposed to care about the grand scheme of things. Fighting a single deathknight will not make your kingdom prosperous, it will not restore righteousness to Creation. You still have to do it, because the world comes after you, constantly engaging you in its kung fu logic (again, 'kung fu logic' expands beyond strictly combat, although it puts a heavy focus on it).

The original edition of the game had no War skill.


The game you talk about just never existed.
 
This is actually a condemnation of Exalted, not a defense. Exalted, as a setting, has been a conscious deliberate rejection of D&D-style murderhoboing and just getting into endless personal fights. The fact that none of its players are doing that means that it's failed to get those themes and points across very well, and people are largely playing it for contrarian interpretations suggests issues.
Exalted has also historically striven to be about epic wuxia kung fu fights between shounen heroes, though. Like, I don't precisely disagree with your assessment, but I do think you're taking it too far. It is an absolute embarrassment that Exalted has historically failed to implement effective grand-scale systems when that level of play is clearly intended to be a core part of the stories the game is geared towards telling, but to say the game should do so at the expense of personal systems seems just as wrong-headed to me.
 
It's embarrassing that Exalted does not include tools to effectively portray the strategic pressure and tactical sallies of the Trojan War.

This does not, in any way, suggest that Exalted's in-game focus isn't intended to be Achilles and Hector duking it out before the gods.
 
Your vision of Exalted has just never been what the game intended to be. You are right that the game deliberately rejects some traditional RPG elements, but you're utterly wrong about how it rejects them. Namely, you are trying to make it a game about how kung fu peer battles don't shape the world, so you don't have those battles and instead act on the scale of armies and nations. Rather, Exalted has always been a game about how kung fu peer battles don't shape the world, and yet you have them anyway.

Everything - the rules, the fiction, the fluff, the setting material - has always been angled towards making Exalted a game in which your Solars have pitched personal-scale battles - not only battles of arms, but also battles of the mind, social confrontations, individual crafting projects - and these are the main focus of the narrative. Yes, you're supposed to care about the grand scheme of things. Fighting a single deathknight will not make your kingdom prosperous, it will not restore righteousness to Creation. You still have to do it, because the world comes after you, constantly engaging you in its kung fu logic (again, 'kung fu logic' expands beyond strictly combat, although it puts a heavy focus on it).

The original edition of the game had no War skill.


The game you talk about just never existed.

I'm not talking about some big change between 2E and 3E. I'm talking about the line as a whole. The line as a whole from the start emphasized that you were the greatest of heroes, that nobody could match your individual might-and yet, because of design decisions which were basically WoD cargo culting writ large, made it so that the only kinds of satisfying fights you would ever get were against other big badasses, when if you look at the sources Exalted uses, and the inspirations, this really isn't the case. In wuxia, armies still generally matter. The biggest badass in Romance of the Three Kingdoms lost because he wasn't a great leader of men.

Exalted 1E, flat-out, stated both:
1. You were the most puissant person to ever puissant,
2. You can't singlehandedly fix things via punching them and can only be in one place at one time.

The obvious solution is to get a large bunch of other people together to fix things on your behalf. The thing is, there was basically no mechanical support, period, for doing this, either in peace or in war, which means it falls to the wayside as something you handwave ("oh, you get some resource dots/you don't need to worry about this thing/etc"). I concede that reducing personal scale fights to one-roll resolution would be bad (although I'd leave in one-roll resolution simply for fights which have minor consequence because sometimes you want to know who wins in a quick and easy way for a fight of minor import) but Exalted has always been in dire need of a combat system which makes fighting with large groups of mans satisfying and painless. Exalted 3E manages the latter but not really the former.
 
I'm not talking about some big change between 2E and 3E. I'm talking about the line as a whole.
So are the rest of us, though?
The thing is, there was basically no mechanical support, period, for doing this, either in peace or in war, which means it falls to the wayside as something you handwave ("oh, you get some resource dots/you don't need to worry about this thing/etc"). I concede that reducing personal scale fights to one-roll resolution would be bad (although I'd leave in one-roll resolution simply for fights which have minor consequence because sometimes you want to know who wins in a quick and easy way for a fight of minor import) but Exalted has always been in dire need of a combat system which makes fighting with large groups of mans satisfying and painless. Exalted 3E manages the latter but not really the former.
This much I will cheerfully agree with.
 
So are the rest of us, though?

I'm conceding that 'one roll personal fights' as the default is not a great idea anymore.

Tbh resolving war as a different thing from independent duels to the death and explicitly disassociating them, pointing out a guy good at Large Scale Fite is probably not the same as a duelist, and having the primary function of charms being 'fite armies led by supermen and/or made of supermen' while having a secondary dueling function is still something I will defend as preferable when one of your inspirations is explicitly Dynasty Warriors. :V
 
Hence, yes, @The Sandman is probably right to bring up the idea of a PMMM witch. Elloge's fetich is probably going to be something that hides in a fantasy world, and which snatches up other demons and strips them down to narrative simplicity, so it knows everything about them and uses them to populate its world. The other souls are the tools for interacting with the outside world - the "Take ideas from everyone else and make them your own" and "Twist other beings into being a lesser part of your existence". They're her scrabbling attempts to handle a world that hurts and terrifies her. Elloge's fetich is the core of that cluster, a terrified thing that hides in fantasy and denies that the outside world even exists.

Or maybe not. I can hardly speak authoritatively here. Just really throwing ideas out at this point.

No, that's a great way to look at it and I don't think the example used should be Madoka.

No, I think I know exactly what character/series should be the basis for Elloge's fetich:



I'm honestly not entirely sure why, but this makes me think his fetich looks like Homura.

No:

 
No, that's a great way to look at it and I don't think the example used should be Madoka.

No, I think I know exactly what character/series should be the basis for Elloge's fetich:


I have no idea who this character is. I think it might be from Sailor Moon (art style reminds me of screenshots I've seen), but I don't know anything about that series.
 
How does this look as a style?

Devoted Bureaucrat Style

Practitioners of Devoted Bureaucrat Style use their out-of-the-box thinking to promote synergy and envision a proactive paradigm shift that pushes the envolope while empowering diversity through organic growth by streamlining sustainability in a way that maintains a win-win exit strategy in alignment with the big picture.

+1 to avoid getting caught slacking off by a superior when working on a deadline
+1 to push blame over your own failures onto a competent and threatening subordinate
+1 difficulty of subordinates' attempts to air greivances against you using pre determined procedures
 
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How does this look as a style?

Devoted Beurocrat Style
Practitioners of Devoted Beurocrat Style use their out-of-the-box thinking to promote synergy and envision a proactive paradigm shift that pushes the envolope while empowering diversity through organic growth by streamlining sustainability in a way that maintains a win-win exit strategy in alignment with the big picture.

+1 to avoid getting caught slacking off by a superior when working on a deadline
+1 to push blame over your own failures onto a competent and threatening subordinate
+1 difficulty of subordinates' attempts to air greivances about you using pre determined procedures
Truly, one of Creation's most wide-spread styles.

But can we get a translation on what the "Beurocrat" is saying?
 
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Well, taking OC and Blando seriously for a moment in terms of what they say about Elloge, I'd imagine her fetich soul (whatever its name) is the embodiment of anyone who has ever desperately wanted to create, but who knows that they are incapable of creating anything worthwhile.

I'd almost go so far as to say that this version Elloge might have been born from He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word not through fetich death, but by killing all of his other Third Circle souls and very deliberately leaving his fetich alone. Essentially, his fetich originally was (and her fetich still is, really) the desire to create, but all of his ability to do so was in the souls that were murdered; his transformation happened when he tried to make new art, then gave in to despair upon realizing that he could never again create anything that wasn't forgettable and mediocre.

...huh, that would kind of make Elloge the Yozi equivalent of a PMMM Witch, wouldn't it?
I would dial it back a notch to have Elloge unable to create anything original. She can blend and remix and plagiarize, but she can never again recapture the raw creativity that belonged to He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word.
 
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