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General Exalted Thread

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Kenainath said:
He's good at making the story interesting, but at points he gets...irritating. I challenge them when I think it will do any good, and I've won more than a few arguments in the past. But in this case, having that argument would be...counterproductive. He can be reasonable, but sometimes he digs his heels in hard, and this is one of those times. Considering that I've run out of patience with Sidereal-supported Wyld Hunts where I actually need something of an SMA tier capability to meet the enemy on terms that don't see me in deep trouble, which my character has been lucky enough to survive twice, once by luring Leviathan into the fight and letting the elder Lunar deal with the Sidereal, I'm not going to the trouble of dealing with this bit of insanity.
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I honestly think it would be less trouble for you to do so.

If I've learned anything as a homebrewer, it's that what you're being asked to do here is not simple. Making a well-balanced martial art at any level is non-trivial effort, and SMA's are the most demanding of the bunch. Your Storyteller is demanding that you make one that's even bigger than usual, with multiple expansion trees, Shintai's and thematic elements, or else they won't let you buy your own Native Charms. We're talking about hours, maybe days of work for something that you don't even particularly want to do, it seems.

Like, I hesitate to insult them, you've said he's good at making an interesting story and I lack wider context of what their sessions are like, but bluntly, the above is completely unreasonable. It would be unreasonable even if you were the groups most prolific and skilled homebrewer. I urge you to discuss this with your Storyteller, make plain how much work they're demanding that you do, and that this isn't a direction you're interested in taking your character, because the picture you've painted so far is that of an over-controlling arsehole.

Like, if I were in your shoes, I honestly wouldn't care that he's dug his heels in hard. This is the kind of thing that would make me dig my heels in hard, to the level of "No. I flat refuse to do this much design work. I'm buying Native Charms and if you say I can't I'm ignoring you, because that's lunacy."
 
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Kenainath said:
Yes, it's annoying as all hell. And yes, he is trampling over privileges that my group agreed to allow, but he's usually fairly good about arguments like this. Interventions have been pulled before. However, I've known him for long enough that I know when he's dug his heels in hard. This is such a case, and I'll make it extraordinarily clear to him that this wasn't something he can ever pull again after I deal with the insanity of having to formulate something like this. Once that's done, he's going to come to his senses enough that I can come down hard in response, but before I get work done on this pet project, he'll just push harder, and this is not something that I care to start a massive fight over when I see him enough that I have to live with the shockwaves.
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"This is bullshit, man. People get paid to do this, they're the Magic the Gathering RnD team. Do I look like I'm on the Magic the Gathering RnD team? Do it yourself."
 
Jon Chung said:
Your GM is crazy. You are presumably not a competent game developer, or you would have told him that he is crazy. He is not a competent game developer, or he would have either built this himself or not bothered with this madness beyond the "Hey I had an idea" to "No, that's insane" filtering stage.

Leave the game, dude.
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He is...reasonably competent, but he doesn't always have a "No, that's insane" stage on his mental filters. Instead, he gets a spark, and then it either gets snuffed or he gets ideas. He's good with the story, good with the mechanics, and he will develop it himself if I don't. However, in that case, I'm stuck with whatever he develops, and that is something I balk at even harder than the idea of being required to do this. In the case of putting in at least portions of the work myself, I'm making sure my character's themes aren't messed up by someone else. If he does this with his ideas that he came up with, I'd be working on restructuring my Slayer to work around his ideas for at least the next ten sessions. No. Leaving isn't in the cards for me right now, but I refuse to be forced to restructure my character that drastically to get to my desired end goal for my Slayer's development.
 
I'm gonna agree with ES and Chung here.

I remember trying to write a Sidereal Martial Art.

I finished the first three Charms, realized that they were so broken that they'd make the entire Solar Melee irrelevant, laughed at my stupidity for even trying, and then stopped caring.

I can do homebrew, I did it for First, I do it for Second and I do it for Third. I do it for CWoD, for NWoD, for DnD 3rd, 4th and 5th, and many other things.

But I'm never gonna write a Sidereal Martial Art again.

EDIT: But if you absolutely must do this, there is a balanced Sidereal style that you can look to for comparison: Sapphire Veils of Passion should be okay.
 
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Kenainath said:
If he does this with his ideas that he came up with, I'd be working on restructuring my Slayer to work around his ideas for at least the next ten sessions.
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Wait, you're saying that if you don't put in the work of designing an SMA that you don't want, your storyteller will force you to learn their homebrew in a significant enough chunk that it'd mean restructuring your character?! This is bullshit. Please do not let him do this to you.
 
Kenainath said:
He is...reasonably competent
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If he's using Obsidian Shards of Infinity, no, he's not, he's a raving lunatic.

Alternatively, hey, I'll just do this for you.

FUCK YOU PUNCH
Cost: -; Mins: MA 6, Essence 6
Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Duration: Instant
Preqs: None
Keywords: Combo-OK

Pick a target in line of sight. Skip steps 2 through 9. Don't even bother rolling anything. In Step 10, the target takes infinite damage. This Charm may be activated as an Innate Ability and need not obey Charm-per-action restrictions.

GAME BREAKER FORM
Cost: -; Mins: MA 6, Essence 6
Type: Permanent
Duration: Permanent
Preqs: Fuck You Punch
Keywords: Form-type, Combo-OK

You are invincible. Yes, to everything. No, nothing can get past this. No, nothing can deny this Charm a UFIO roll. It's always applicable. Lawl. This Charm may be activated as an Innate Ability and need not obey Charm-per-action restrictions.

CAMPAIGN ENDING STRIKE
Cost: -; Mins: MA 6, Essence 6
Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Duration: Instant
Preqs: Game Breaker Form
Keywords: None

You win the game. Throw dice at the GM.

There, now you can fight Obsidian Shards of Infinity.
 
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Jon Chung said:
"This is bullshit, man. People get paid to do this, they're the Magic the Gathering RnD team. Do I look like I'm on the Magic the Gathering RnD team? Do it yourself."
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Again, as I mentioned in my previous response, if he does it himself, my desired end goal for my Infernal needs a lot of work to become viable all over again. He knows the goal, but fully understanding precisely what I'm getting at isn't something he's managed yet. Essentially, I'm trying to create a Primordial who in the long run is very much a general who leads from the front, with a powerful, well-trained and equipped army backing him. Craft, Occult, and the Slayer Caste favored Abilities feature heavily in that. His work would skew my current working, as he's including certain mental alterations that are endemic to Primordials but would be devastating to my abilities to function on the levels I need to right now to get what I need in the end.
 
Imrix said:
Wait, you're saying that if you don't put in the work of designing an SMA that you don't want, your storyteller will force you to learn their homebrew in a significant enough chunk that it'd mean restructuring your character?! This is bullshit. Please do not let him do this to you.
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I know. I am not happy. I just plan to let him get off his current insanity by indulging it, then come down on him hard for pulling this. And as I might have said, he doesn't consider it 'force,' at the moment. He considers it 'look at the free Charms I gave you,' and isn't currently thinking about the inconvenience to my long-term plans. He can be a live in the moment kind of person, while I am very much a long-term planner. Usually, we get along well, but if he latches onto a momentary idea, he hangs onto it.

I am pissed off, and my temper burns cold. He is going to regret ever pulling this kind of thing off, and I get a lot more of the free hand that I desperately need right now to fine-tune my forming Third Circle devas, my Charm tree, and my themes. But I can wait for that. I'm patient enough to let him get his satisfaction, ride his high, hit the low, and hit him very, very hard while he's down so he can understand that if he ever tries this again, he won't get any satisfaction out of it. He needs to learn to think a little more, and this should be a decent lesson in considering others.
 
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Jon Chung said:
*snip*
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Ah yes, the well-known Yellow Punches of a Bald Man Style. Only one individual on record is ever recorded as having learnt it - a mortal, who somehow learned this most potent martial art and broke through all limits that the Primordials imposed on the nature of man through the power of a hundred sit ups, a hundred push ups, a hundred squats and then a ten kilometre run every day. And not using any air conditioning, of course.

He was last seen punching the Mask of Winters in the face, shortly after killing Juggernaut with a single blow.

Mask of Winters: "Oh no! How did you know my secret weakness? Brute force! Curse you!"
 
Kenainath said:
He is...reasonably competent, but he doesn't always have a "No, that's insane" stage on his mental filters. Instead, he gets a spark, and then it either gets snuffed or he gets ideas. He's good with the story,
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So, pretty standard WW employee prerequisites/traits?

Kenainath said:
good with the mechanics, and he will develop it himself if I don't.
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I'll join the chorus about any benchmarks based on Infinite Shards of Obscenity being a clear indication that the person in question is not good with mechanics.
 
Kenainath said:
I am pissed off, and my temper burns cold. He is going to regret ever pulling this kind of thing off, and I get a lot more of the free hand that I desperately need right now to fine-tune my forming Third Circle devas, my Charm tree, and my themes. But I can wait for that. I'm patient enough to let him get his satisfaction, ride his high, hit the low, and hit him very, very hard while he's down so he can understand that if he ever tries this again, he won't get any satisfaction out of it. He needs to learn to think a little more, and this should be a decent lesson in considering others.
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Or, alternatively, you could can the passive-aggressiveness and just lay it out for him that while you're sure his idea is very cool, it's not where you want to take your character, it's asking a lot of you, and it doesn't mesh with your long-term plans, so it is a non-starter.
 
vicky_molokh said:
So, pretty standard WW employee prerequisites/traits?


I'll join the chorus about any benchmarks based on Infinite Shards of Obscenity being a clear indication that the person in question is not good with mechanics.
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He isn't basing the benchmarks on Obsidian Shards of Infinity. At best, the pinnacle Charms will let me fight them, under extremely specific circumstances where I have time to prepare at length. The kind of once a year circumstances that still result in me being bloody, but they're bloody too. The benchmarks are closer to Sapphire Veil of Passion, with the pinnacle Charms having other uses and only falling under that one specific category at only one time, in one environment, where I have put everything into dealing with this one enemy, period.

And yes, pretty standard WW employee prerequisites/traits.
 
.... Guys, I don't think this is the place for an impromptu "Manip + Socialize 101" lesson. This isn't Mage and none of us have Mind anyway.

Anyone else want to give him some productive advice not related to his very unfortunate social situation? I can't actually help much, my mechanics base is pretty much nonexistent.
 
Imrix said:
Or, alternatively, you could can the passive-aggressiveness and just lay it out for him that while you're sure his idea is very cool, it's not where you want to take your character, it's asking a lot of you, and it doesn't mesh with your long-term plans, so it is a non-starter.
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I tried. Repeatedly. I also failed repeatedly. This is an issue that's built over a few sessions, and now it's at a head. Either I do it, and I get five free Charms that advance what I want in some manner. Or, he does it, and I still get those five free Charms, plus whatever else he develops to continue the tree, and his ideas start making me work to set up a method to circumvent what he's doing. I do not feel like starting a massive fight now when I can have a victory for a minimal price later.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
.... Guys, I don't think this is the place for an impromptu "Manip + Socialize 101" lesson. This isn't Mage and none of us have Mind anyway.

Anyone else want to give him some productive advice not related to his very unfortunate social situation? I can't actually help much, my mechanics base is pretty much nonexistent.
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There is no mechanical advice for this. He might as well ask us to design a 3rd edition Fighter using core books only that can out perform a Wizard.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
.... Guys, I don't think this is the place for an impromptu "Manip + Socialize 101" lesson. This isn't Mage and none of us have Mind anyway.

Anyone else want to give him some productive advice not related to his very unfortunate social situation? I can't actually help much, my mechanics base is pretty much nonexistent.
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Yes please. Mechanics advice would be welcome, but right now, this situation, while as linkhyrule5 says, is very unfortunate, I do need the mechanics advice more than social advice right now. Thank you for this comment.
 
Kenainath said:
I tried. Repeatedly. I also failed repeatedly. This is an issue that's built over a few sessions, and now it's at a head. Either I do it, and I get five free Charms that advance what I want in some manner. Or, he does it, and I still get those five free Charms, plus whatever else he develops to continue the tree, and his ideas start making me work to set up a method to circumvent what he's doing. I do not feel like starting a massive fight now when I can have a victory for a minimal price later.
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Or... you leave the game and download something off Steam to pass the time instead. Seriously, have you read Obsidian Shards of Infinity? My joke style up there is arguably less stupid.
 
Kenainath said:
Again, as I mentioned in my previous response, if he does it himself, my desired end goal for my Infernal needs a lot of work to become viable all over again. He knows the goal, but fully understanding precisely what I'm getting at isn't something he's managed yet. Essentially, I'm trying to create a Primordial who in the long run is very much a general who leads from the front, with a powerful, well-trained and equipped army backing him. Craft, Occult, and the Slayer Caste favored Abilities feature heavily in that. His work would skew my current working, as he's including certain mental alterations that are endemic to Primordials but would be devastating to my abilities to function on the levels I need to right now to get what I need in the end.
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Is it a 1on1 campaign, or do you have a group?

Because if you have a group, I'd suggest you talk with the rest of them, especially if you all know the GM well. I've found that peer pressure can help with people realizing 'no, that's not cool' and going back on dumb decisions.

Otherwise....

Well, 'Primordials in general' sounds a little TOO broad for a Charmset. Any Charmset.


Since you mentioned you were heavy Cecelyne, I'd suggest making a Style based off her specifically, with a lot of Sand Bending and Imposing laws on people.

(Sands of Azure Justice Style?)

The First Charm in the style would be Sandstrike Blast, just with a higher mote cost, and allow Infernals to use their Native Charm as Counting for this.

The second charm would be probably a Counter Attack Charm that lets you use sand to impose Crippling effects on the arm or leg that hit you.

The third charm would be a Supplemental Shaping Charm that, if you hit them, impose an arbitrary law on them that gives them penalties (internal or external?) when they go against that law, and equivalent bonuses when they follow it

The Form Charm would reduce the cost of Sandstrike Blast to 0m, and increase the range so you can reasonably hit everyone on the battlefield. It should also make it so that the longer you spend on a battlefield, the more it becomes a Place of Desolation (Every action, reflexive costless casting of Holy Land Infliction upon the ground you are standing and anywhere you've attacked with Sandstrike?)

After that, you don't really need to develop the Style anymore, since he said just up to the Form Charm.
 
Everything that can be said about your Storyteller's attitude and the appropriate response has already been said. They sound unreasonable, they sound deranged, they sound like they are breaking the social contract of a gaming group over their knee for a whim. They also sound like they don't understand or don't care about the amount of work that they're asking of you, or about the restrictions and themes laid down right there in the Infernal Manual.

So instead I'll offer you a tentative suggestion for reducing the work on your plate, instead of simply recommending you throw it in the sink. Namely, just steal as much decent or non-decent Yozi (or vaguely-esoteric and easily-refluffed) homebrew as you can and repackage it as a Sidereal Martial Art. If you need it to be broken, then fold multiple Yozi Charms into modules of a single purchase, or just remove caps and add multipliers.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
.... Guys, I don't think this is the place for an impromptu "Manip + Socialize 101" lesson. This isn't Mage and none of us have Mind anyway.
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I disagree. We're all roleplayers here, we know the dangers of what happens when group dynamics or player/storyteller relationships turn toxic, and we know how important it is to resolve them socially.

Basically Kenainath, I'm sorry, but what you're being asked to do is fucking nuts, and the people who have been around the block enough times to give you worthwhile mechanical advice are also the ones who have been around the block enough times to know that this situation is better resolved by sitting your ST down and just telling him that he's asking too much work for something you don't want to do and a direction you don't want to take you character, you're not doing it, and you're not letting it happen to your character.
 
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I've read Obsidian Shards of Infinity. I also have downloads off Steam. I also don't intend to deal with Obsidian Shards, except for the very, very, very minor interactions I'll have styling its pinnacle Charms to deal with that idiocy. Overall, developing the style here means focusing more on creating a martial art that's actually meant for Elder Exalts who happen to be Green Sun Princes, and which happens to be a Sidereal tier martial art. I've considered leaving the game. I thought about it at length. I then considered the irritations that would result, and how I would be impacted. I decided against leaving the game, for the moment. Right now, I can put up with this idiocy, because it gets me something that's useful later. But this is the last time I put up with something like this.
 
Walker of the Yellow Path said:
Is it a 1on1 campaign, or do you have a group?

Because if you have a group, I'd suggest you talk with the rest of them, especially if you all know the GM well. I've found that peer pressure can help with people realizing 'no, that's not cool' and going back on dumb decisions.

Otherwise....

Well, 'Primordials in general' sounds a little TOO broad for a Charmset. Any Charmset.


Since you mentioned you were heavy Cecelyne, I'd suggest making a Style based off her specifically, with a lot of Sand Bending and Imposing laws on people.

(Sands of Azure Justice Style?)

The First Charm in the style would be Sandstrike Blast, just with a higher mote cost, and allow Infernals to use their Native Charm as Counting for this.

The second charm would be probably a Counter Attack Charm that lets you use sand to impose Crippling effects on the arm or leg that hit you.

The third charm would be a Supplemental Shaping Charm that, if you hit them, impose an arbitrary law on them that gives them penalties (internal or external?) when they go against that law, and equivalent bonuses when they follow it

The Form Charm would reduce the cost of Sandstrike Blast to 0m, and increase the range so you can reasonably hit everyone on the battlefield. It should also make it so that the longer you spend on a battlefield, the more it becomes a Place of Desolation (Every action, reflexive costless casting of Holy Land Infliction upon the ground you are standing and anywhere you've attacked with Sandstrike?)

After that, you don't really need to develop the Style anymore, since he said just up to the Form Charm.
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Thank you for the advice. As for the group bit, I have a group. I brought it up with them. They agreed with him on the issue. Damned patronizing Solars who get SMA without this kind of work...

As for your suggestions, they give me a starting point to work from. The initial Charms up to the Form are meant to grow from the themes of the Yozi applied to war on a mass scale, plus developing the world-body. Then from the Form it branches out into expansions, each themed to a separate Yozi. Those I have solid ideas for. It's the opening that I'm having trouble with.
 
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