For me, 2e-style thaumaturgy* does one really key thing: it makes it obvious for players that Creation is a world filled with magic everywhere, even if they never read any of the setting material.

* Not necessarily the specifics of it, but the idea that anyone can learn everyday magic with some skill investment and only a little extra training.

3e-style thaumaturgy implies exactly the opposite from its mechanics and brief writeup (e.g. "most village shamans are just powerless weirdos who are objectively wrong"), and that's why I deeply dislike it.
This I guess goes with what I was saying earlier and somewhat down to taste. I don't think the issue is that every single thing they do is worng. That's silly. See what I mentioned about asprin earlier. And there could be other weird things like the aformentioned tree ritual that probably is a regional thing. It owrks locally due to the circumstances of the local environment, is magical as it's not how it works on Earth, and could have rituals put on it that are unrealted to its working or not because people do a lot of things miscorrelationg things.

I just think that like, willowbark works anywhere, while tree-warming talismans might not, is fine to me? This is again an issue wiht the way 2e did it and I think 3e failed to communciate. 2e made it pretty much the case that everything worked and so there was not actually any room for mistaken correlation, frauds, or honest mistakes. If you couldn't do the thing, you were just bad at it. 3e I think does half of what it hsould do: Have some weird stuff indeed be weird magic that most folks can't replicate. It just that in saying all this bucket of stuff is one thing (thauamturgy) cut-off a lot.

I think "thaumaturgy" being the singular category for how to interact with the world is the mistake, and a lot of this stuff comes down to that I think.
 
I been itching to make a set of custom charms for DB's that lets them take on the draconic aspects of the five elemtanl dragons in a more physical way. I remember reading a quest on here where DB's could go full scalie when drawing on their powers and that was super cool. It would be a really simple Essence 1, 2, 3 charm set.

Or it just could be something DB's do straight up. Which is also nice.
 
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The best way to do thaumaturgy, imo, would be to take notes from Ventures in Essence and actually go through the entire, multi-step process and/or ritual in order to achieve the thaumaturgical effect or product.

Take the repeatedly mentioned blacksmith and their historical mystical position and prowess. I see no reason why you couldn't do a Craft Venture to blacksmith something, and then introduce obstacles and advantages that leverage occult knowledge, skill, and resources in order to blacksmith something, but with magic. Mechanically it wouldn't be all that different, but the trappings, the feel, the flavor of the overall process, would achieve an outcome I at least would find satisfactory for representing non-Sorcery magic.
THis is kind of my feeling. A lot of what was thaumaturgy in 2e could just be the Ability in 3e. And some of the things that were like, mechancial widget things are just how you do the venture. Talking to spirits, some prayer to a god or another, using special materials. That's just Craft with things different from how we would do it to implement.

Thaumatrugy in 3e's sense is not that. It's more often like, overtly magic stuff not all blacksmiths can do. And I think that's the rub for a lot of folks is that they want a lot of the things that should just be the way you Craft be some mechancial widget you futz wtih. Extend that to a bunch of the other stuff 2e thaumaturgy mission-creeper into.

To me thaumaturgy was trying to cover three things:

Shit that the Abiltiy could do anyways, just made a widget to enable it weirdly. Like using the right ingredients, doing salt line wards right, or the entire Animal Husbandry Art and a lot of the low end Alchemys tuff.

Stuff that the Abiltiy can do, but probalby not everyone who uses the Ability should be able to do. Wards, distilling magical materials from base elements, summoning a demon based on its weird occult habits. These are things that probably are beyond the basic rules, but should be something you could learn to do. These honestly are I think the liminal area where I think that there's a palce for folks to be able to do these...but also for a lot of folks to be able to think or make people think they're doing them but not. Again I refer to the materail from Flat Earth, but you had a few instances of prophets, savants, and even sorcerers who thought they knew what they were doing but didn't. Or characters like Reigan in Mob Psycho 100 who are honestly cool characters, but who are still mostly normals who know about the supernaturla but can't like, acutally do it.

The final is things that are honestly most misc. supernatural Merit tricks. Things like starting fire due to having a weird abiltiy to cause sparks, genuine abiltiy to see the future, or having some god on tap due to your bloodline. I'm not sure these needed to be thaumaturgy myself. These honestly are more like low-end supernatural beings. And there's a blurry line on what goes into this and what goes into the previous category. Exorcism is an example.

An example of this is to loop again to blacksmithing. Making steel is probably the first category. And they might use means that we consider supernatural ritual to do this, but that's fine by me. That isn't something I would charge folks to use thaumaturgy for, it's a tool used for a venture-style way to crafft weapons.

Making a weapon that needs to be sharpened, can hit immaterial spirits, or which scares off fairies is something I am sure folks claim they have done, but whether they actually did is something that is context-based. Some people probably can do this. Some peole think they could, but turns out they were wrong. ANd some folks sell these things to foreigners who they know aren't coming back and wil probably die if htey tried anyhow.

The issue is whether the latter is more common than the former. I tend to like it so that it's possible (again better than Earth), enough folks might buy it, but not so common that it's expected everywhere. And whether it's something you could teach people or is it something you have for those legendary swordsmen or bloodlines of blacksmiths people don't trust who seem to make magical swords that never need sharpening? Or could it be both? Dunno. But I think there again, should be room for it to be less-than-assumedt-to-be-always.
 
I been itching to make a set of custom charms for DB's that lets them take on the draconic aspects of the five elemtanl dragons in a more physical way. I remember reading a quest on here where DB's could go full scalie when drawing on their powers and that was super cool. It would be a really simple Essence 1, 2, 3 charm set.

Or it just could be something DB's do straight up. Which is also nice.

Both would be my preference.

There's a certain degree of draconic aspects that you get access to simply by virtue of being a DB. Then there's a charm set that builds upon and enhances those aspects, representing a Dragonblood that's spent time and effort to hone those innate abilities.
 
One thing that I don't think 2e Thaum gets enough credit for is how it defined a certain baseline of technology for creation. Dif wrote a much more indepth post about this, but just knowing that there are actions you can take which let you punch ghosts really helps shape the interactions between mortals and ghosts.

And obviously not everywhere or everyone is going to know all the Thaum stuff and there is going to be Thaum stuff which wasn't captured by the books but it's still useful to have that baseline. Much more so than a blank canvas of "people can do all the stuff peasents could always do but the reasoning is different".
 
Conjuring demons without binding them alone is like, that's rife with all sorts of plothooks. But the 2e system overall- nah. I like the ideas in it, the execution is more than a bit clunky.

This, at least, survived into Ex3 in the form of Workings, which are noted to be able "invite an unbound demon" of the appropriate circle at ambition 1 of each tier. This has the added benefit that you can even have mortal demon cult plots to beckon second-circle demons that you can disrupt in dramatic fashion. You have the mortal cult take the extra time Means, and then you have the signs and evidence of the working pile up over the course of months or years.
 
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I been itching to make a set of custom charms for DB's that lets them take on the draconic aspects of the five elemtanl dragons in a more physical way. I remember reading a quest on here where DB's could go full scalie when drawing on their powers and that was super cool. It would be a really simple Essence 1, 2, 3 charm set.

Or it just could be something DB's do straight up. Which is also nice.
A Dragon-Blooded version of Ascended Battle Visage? Something like "Dream-Champion Trance" from the Dream-Souled.
 
One thing that I don't think 2e Thaum gets enough credit for is how it defined a certain baseline of technology for creation. Dif wrote a much more indepth post about this, but just knowing that there are actions you can take which let you punch ghosts really helps shape the interactions between mortals and ghosts.

And obviously not everywhere or everyone is going to know all the Thaum stuff and there is going to be Thaum stuff which wasn't captured by the books but it's still useful to have that baseline. Much more so than a blank canvas of "people can do all the stuff peasents could always do but the reasoning is different".
Mind, sitting down and saying what is there is also soemthing that could be done. Like how we know Creation mostly has steel or bronze.

Apparently Across the Eight Directions has an appendix that covers this very sorta broad scale meta stuff. All the more reason I wish it would get out of the Art Direction bottleneck arleady.
 
This, at least, survived into Ex3 in the form of Workings, which are noted to be able "invite an unbound demon" of the appropriate circle at ambition 1 of each tier. This has the added benefit that you can even have mortal demon cult plots to beckon second-circle demons that you can disrupt in dramatic fashion. You have the mortal cult take the extra time Means, and then you have the signs and evidence of the working pile up over the course of months or years.
Assuming the cult has a Sorceror, that is, which puts a bit of a lower bound on the power scales capable of this, and thus the stories you can tell with it.
 
This discussion on Thaumaturgy and real life 'magic' is in my view at the core of the divide on what Creation is. One camp views it as Bronze Age Earth with magic, gods and Exalts on top. The other views it as a world where magic is baked into the setting to the point that there's a degree of things that we on Earth would consider magical, but the people of Creation just don't. In my view, sure there are hucksters, but the village shaman actually does make talismans that are meaningfully useful to a mortal frame of reference. He doesn't need Charms or Sorcery to do that, he just grabs a bunch of symbolically meaningful components, makes the thing and maybe does a small rite invoking a protector god/ghost/etc. The talisman has an effect, but it does not come from the shaman. He has no 'magic', just as a smith does not have 'smelt'.
 
Assuming the cult has a Sorceror, that is, which puts a bit of a lower bound on the power scales capable of this, and thus the stories you can tell with it.

Sure, but at bottom I'm entirely fine just saying 'ayup, they have a sorcerer alright', and even if you need more justification than that, several demons (Mara, just off the top of my head) would provide their own justification for how the cult got one.
 
This discussion on Thaumaturgy and real life 'magic' is in my view at the core of the divide on what Creation is. One camp views it as Bronze Age Earth with magic, gods and Exalts on top. The other views it as a world where magic is baked into the setting to the point that there's a degree of things that we on Earth would consider magical, but the people of Creation just don't. In my view, sure there are hucksters, but the village shaman actually does make talismans that are meaningfully useful to a mortal frame of reference. He doesn't need Charms or Sorcery to do that, he just grabs a bunch of symbolically meaningful components, makes the thing and maybe does a small rite invoking a protector god/ghost/etc. The talisman has an effect, but it does not come from the shaman. He has no 'magic', just as a smith does not have 'smelt'.
Honestly yeah, you put it better than I could have
 
My brain latches onto the concept of 'Heretical' Charms too much and I was thinking about what Heretical Charms for Sidereals would look like and where would they learn them? Why, they'd learn them from the deepest crime of the First Age, and the reason the Maidens allowed the Usurpation; bottom tier waifu-based anime featuring the Maidens but boiled down to anime tropes. A Charm for Serenity Sidereals that enhances acting like a horny ditz, Journey ones get 'forgetful hyperactive manic pixie dream girl', Battles get 'tomboy tsundere', Secrets get 'smug ohohohoh lady' and Endings gets 'ice queen kuudere'.

Access would of course require a grand quest to recover the final extant copies of this anime from the libraries of Orabilis or learning the sutras from interpreting a collection of bodypillows entombed in the grave of a First Age Solar NEET.

This is mostly me shitposting because I find it funny.
 
Sure, but at bottom I'm entirely fine just saying 'ayup, they have a sorcerer alright', and even if you need more justification than that, several demons (Mara, just off the top of my head) would provide their own justification for how the cult got one.
Yeah, but it means it's difficult to have those stories of, for example, 'somebody got in over their head and the situation's out of control', like a desperate shaman conjuring up demons to defend their village and now the countryside is threatened by a pack of blood apes, or a cocky alchemist deciding he's going to Show Them All with this tome of esoterica he picked up and now there's a Teodozjia ransacking temples and promoting Yozi worship, or a bunch of Spiral Academy students call up an old ghost of the faculty on a dumb teenage dare and whoops, now there's blood on the walls and we've got a horror story on our hands. Requiring there to be a sorceror involved means dealing with the edge of grandeur and rarity and significance that sorcery carries in Exalted, which changes the tenor of the narrative possibility-space.
 
Yeah, but it means it's difficult to have those stories of, for example, 'somebody got in over their head and the situation's out of control', like a desperate shaman conjuring up demons to defend their village and now the countryside is threatened by a pack of blood apes, or a cocky alchemist deciding he's going to Show Them All with this tome of esoterica he picked up and now there's a Teodozjia ransacking temples and promoting Yozi worship, or a bunch of Spiral Academy students call up an old ghost of the faculty on a dumb teenage dare and whoops, now there's blood on the walls and we've got a horror story on our hands. Requiring there to be a sorceror involved means dealing with the edge of grandeur and rarity and significance that sorcery carries in Exalted, which changes the tenor of the narrative possibility-space.
Yeah, Sorcerers are necessarily 'experts', and you don't really get the design space of 'someone with just enough knowledge to be dangerous did a very stupid thing'.
 
Both would be my preference.

There's a certain degree of draconic aspects that you get access to simply by virtue of being a DB. Then there's a charm set that builds upon and enhances those aspects, representing a Dragonblood that's spent time and effort to hone those innate abilities.
Honestly the best idea. Could frame it as being able to pick up a few draconian themed mutations off at the start if you feel like it. Going down the charm route lets you do wacky stuff like full scalie with special mutations like wings. Maybe enhance specific mutations with special properties. So people can go down the same charm path and go full scalie, or just pick out specific things with the same benefits

Honestly shouldn't be to hard to put together. This also would apply to beastmen DBs, so you can be a dragon wolf dude. Cause why the hell not?
 
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This discussion on Thaumaturgy and real life 'magic' is in my view at the core of the divide on what Creation is. One camp views it as Bronze Age Earth with magic, gods and Exalts on top. The other views it as a world where magic is baked into the setting to the point that there's a degree of things that we on Earth would consider magical, but the people of Creation just don't. In my view, sure there are hucksters, but the village shaman actually does make talismans that are meaningfully useful to a mortal frame of reference. He doesn't need Charms or Sorcery to do that, he just grabs a bunch of symbolically meaningful components, makes the thing and maybe does a small rite invoking a protector god/ghost/etc. The talisman has an effect, but it does not come from the shaman. He has no 'magic', just as a smith does not have 'smelt'.
Precisely.

By the by, someone calling Exalted low fantasy higher up in the thread kinda made me go "I mean yeah, I can see it, but I feel like we're operating on very different definitions here."
 
Honestly the best idea. Could frame it as being able to pick up a few draconian themed mutations off at the start if you feel like it. Going down the charm route lets you do wacky stuff like full scalie with special mutations like wings. Maybe enhance specific mutations with special properties. So people can go down the same charm path and go full scalie, or just pick out specific things with the same benefits

Honestly shouldn't be to hard to put together. This also would apply to beastmen DBs, so you can be a dragon wolf dude. Cause why the hell not?

I suppose it generally depends on how you want it to work.

If you want it to be something ubiquitous, that every Dragonblood can turn into a dragon to some extent, it could be just a thing. Maybe it's a set few mutations, like scales and claws or what not, maybe you get a certain number of aspects that you pick at character creation. Either way Dragonblood just have it like they do Anima Flux, with Charm sets building off the basic mutations.

Another possibility is that it's simply a Merit or two with note on it that however prevalent it actually is in setting, a lot of people/societies tend to believe that every Dragonblood can just go full scalie. It's not the truth, but it is the kind of thing that makes an impression. In any event, the Merit may also come packaged with some Social influence, depending on how it's seen. If, say, the Realm considers it an obvious sign of particularly potent Dragon's Blood, well that probably helps in certain situations. On the other hand, maybe it's considered some base for a Dragonblood to focus on the gross material aspects of their existence instead of the rarefied feats of Essence they could instead wield.

Lot of room for a lot of approaches, maybe even more than one! It would be totally reasonable for some people to think Dragonbloods going full scalie is rad as fuck and for others to turn their noses up at the concept.
 
THis is kind of my feeling. A lot of what was thaumaturgy in 2e could just be the Ability in 3e. And some of the things that were like, mechancial widget things are just how you do the venture. Talking to spirits, some prayer to a god or another, using special materials. That's just Craft with things different from how we would do it to implement.

Backing this up:

A couple weeks ago, I dived into 2e's Thaumaturgy and compared it to 3e stuff for Reasons (tm), and honestly, I feel like this is 100% the intent, it's just not conveyed to older players because it's not in the Thaumaturgy section.

Like, you can still ward off ghosts and undead without needing magic - you just put down a line of salt, because that's just How Undead Work according to the core book, you don't need to spend a bunch of XP on learning how to do that. You can make a silvered weapon that can hit ghosts - the sample deadspeaker is running around with one entirely separate from her basically-the-Thaumaturgy merit Banishment or her sorcerously-created talisman that breaks possessions that she holds as well. You can craft a tea that allows you to see dematerialized dead - it's called Ghost Flower Tea and hangs out in the Everyday Wonders section. You can make a paste capable of curing any disease short of leprosy - it's Seven Bounties Paste in Arms of the Chosen, and back in 2e, it was under the Art of Alchemy, alongside things like the Age-Staving Cordial (also in 3e in Everyday Wonders in Core). Talismans still exist - turning a random piece of junk into a talisman needs you to be a 3e Thaumaturge (and possibly have some sort of ritual for it that never got printed?) but you can also just... find them naturally and they give you bonuses vs disease and infection or protect you from botches or ward against fair folk, spirits, the dead, etc. You can beg spirits for blessings - Champoor's filled with spirits that are offering people blessings and petty magics to engage in petty thievery in.

So, like, 2.5e Thaumaturgy, where you couldn't expend essence instead of Resources and had to actually obtain the magically efficous materials is still there, it's just... something you do with the relevant ability. You find a perfectly round rock that's had a hole drilled into it by the waters in a Shadowland and you stunt that this serves as the core for an eyepiece that lets you see ghosts, or you use the social system to beg a blessing off a spirit who knows an appropriate spirit charm and he helps you bless a talisman against the fey, or whatever else.

3e Thaumaturgy is for when you're banishing a demon by chanting at it and whacking it with the power of your inborn magics, if you want the stuff that 2e Thaumaturgy could do, that's mostly just... "use the appropriate ability that allows this thing."

(That being said, 2e Thaumaturgical rituals being off on their own was super useful because it mean that, as a player, you knew that you could enter a Shadowland border with a intense concentration, a ritual, and a drop of blood, while in 3e, it's basically "Introduce a Fact with Lore that this is a thing you can do" and unless both you and your ST have read 1e or 2e and know this is a reasonable thing, no one's going to think to allow that).
 
All this talk about thaumaturgy is cool and all, but I feel compelled to note that Martial Arts, Sidereal Martial Arts, and sorcery are dropping in like 8 hours. Prepare!
 
See, I'd like to see Thaumaturgy be a lot cheaper and have it where you can connect it to some ability to mark that you're employing small magic when you use that ability.
 
All this talk about thaumaturgy is cool and all, but I feel compelled to note that Martial Arts, Sidereal Martial Arts, and sorcery are dropping in like 8 hours. Prepare!
Yeah, but I'll be asleep then.

This is an interesting conversation that's happening now, unless you want to push the release forward...
 
The best way to do thaumaturgy, imo, would be to take notes from Ventures in Essence and actually go through the entire, multi-step process and/or ritual in order to achieve the thaumaturgical effect or product.

Seems like the worst of both worlds; a mechanically heavy system with a lot of stuff you need to learn, but no way to represent the guy who knows a rain dance.

My brain latches onto the concept of 'Heretical' Charms too much and I was thinking about what Heretical Charms for Sidereals would look like and where would they learn them?

Jokes aside, 2e's Greater Astrology Charms were basically that. They were in Glories of the Most High.
 
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