You are ignoring content by this member.
You gotta relay this stuff to me in Dragonball Z terms, I am totally unfamiliar with Bleach and I feel like a deer caught in the headlights of a truck when people talk about it.
 
Fighting Sidereals is a moral hazard. Here you are just trying to punch someone with magic kung fu, as one does? And then on the other side of Creation some baker dies of a heart attack because the Sidereal bought a croissant from them that morning and decided to offload the effects of your attack on them. Fucked up.
 
Fighting Sidereals is a moral hazard. Here you are just trying to punch someone with magic kung fu, as one does? And then on the other side of Creation some baker dies of a heart attack because the Sidereal bought a croissant from them that morning and decided to offload the effects of your attack on them. Fucked up.

It was probably your favourite baker too smh
 
This argument is strange enough it got me to drag myself out of my long posting torpor, just to make a post. I need to clarify something first: I do not find 2e Thaumaturgy particularly interesting and I think it's mostly lauded so much because it is remembered better in contrast to 3e Thaumaturgy. I don't think either are particularly interesting, but the former has more than like, two pages dedicated to itself. I am solely here to defend ancient and historical magicians against the charge of "frauds", not out of some interest in defending the efficacy of folk magic—for every functional rite, one might find something non-functional or harmful—but out of an interest in defending the systems of thought and understanding that the ancients put immense amounts of work into. I must emphasize that I find, "But is it like, real magic?" the least interesting possible question to ask, and by the same token find this discussion of how real or fraud-like ancient magic was totally uninteresting. My sources for this discussion will be A. Azafar Moin's The Millennial Sovereign: Sacred Kingship & Sainthood in Islam and Tara Nummendal's Alchemy and Authority in the Holy Roman Empire.

Astrology is an oft-cited example of the influence of historical magic, and alchemy an oft-cited example of its uses (and lacks of uses), so I figured that these two would serve as useful points to begin a discussion about this. So let's start by discussing Mughal kingship. At the height of his reign, Akbar I of the Mughal Empire was accused of turning against Islam itself, and of fashioning himself as a prophet. Fashioning himself a spiritual guide to all his subjects across the Indian subcontinent, regardless of caste or creed, he unveiled a spiritual order in which all his nobles and officers were encouraged to enroll as disciples. The consequences of his Din-e Elahi (the Divine Religion) institution of imperial discipleship were global in proportion and reports of the Padeshah's turn against Islam were followed with interest from Iran to Spain. Akbar's experiment was assumed by modern scholars to have had no comparison all across the Islamic world.

This does not hold up to scrutiny.

In fact, Akbar's experiment was deeply rooted in Sufi conceptions of sainthood and mysticism, ideas which three centuries earlier had taken root in Iran in the form of a new kind of mass-based Sufism structured around hereditary spiritual leadership of cults to popular saints. These practices were immensely successful in shaping the experience of lived Islam, and the worldviews of ordinary Muslims. And it's this tradition we need to see Akbar's experiment in. What is an Emperor—a Padeshah—if not a hereditary spiritual leader on a very large scale? And what is his favoured subjects, if not his disciples? What I am saying is that to the average Iranian or Indian Muslim, the idea of sacred authority was in no way abstract or textual, it was concrete, real and experienced. Mediated through the intercession of holy men—and women—and the graves of saints, apparent in dreams, rituals that emphasized holiness and set-apart-ness and theological innovations, this new Islam was in every sense very, very real. We might say that by certain modern and overly limiting empirical categories, it was not "truly" real, because we cannot be sure if these holy figures truly did perform miracles, and that Shah Esmail was most certainly not Ali reincarnated as he claimed to be. But I think that's near-useless. For all practical purposes, the holy kingship of Akbar I was very real.

So how does this relate to astrology?

As anyone who has ever studied Christianity might know, the term "millenarianism" refers to the incoming total change—or apocalypse—of society and the world. The term comes from the Latin millenarius with the greek suffix ismos, referring to something "containing a thousand" of something. The idea, of course, is the impending societal change at the turn of the millennium, and Islam is in no sense a stranger to this idea. To put it as clearly as possible, the idea was that the saviour was expected to appear at the end of a thousand-year cycle, or at the beginning of another one. Sometimes, this cycle would be linked to the end of the world, other times as the penultimate time before the aforementioned. Key to it all was that time was perceived, to some degree, as fundamentally cyclical. And the keys to that cycle lie in the regular rotation of the heavenly bodies, and as a result was informed by the sciences of astronomy and astrology. These sciences were part of the everyday lives of all classes of people, and also served the useful function that they allowed the adjustment of the beginning and end of what exactly this cycle was. The thousand could be subdivided into auspicious subsets and fractions as needed. This was not just the result of superstition or people "knowing less", but the result of a lively and engaged dialogue stretching all across Eurasia between philosophers and astrologers, nor was it in any sense a result of hucksters and frauds setting increasingly ridiculous dates for the apocalypse where this time it will surely happen (5th attempt).

In the words of A. Azafar Moin, "for the people of that era the future was as important as the past, divination as important as genealogy, and astrology as valuable as history. Indeed as far as practices of sacred kingship were concerned, history and astrology were sister disciplines. Astrologers worked as annalists, and historians served as oracles." Astrology was, just like history remains today, a deeply and fundamentally political science. Astrology was used to ascertain the health of realms and to determine remaining lifespans; it is certainly no accident that monarchs often issued new calendars with their accessions. In other words, what we saw as Akbar's "experiment" was in fact the newest and most radical move in a long tradition of millennial sovereignty (title drop, vine boom, explosion effect) that was hardly bound to any given religious tradition but stretched all across Western and Southern Eurasia with roots in the sciences of preislamic Iran, India, Mesopotiamia and Greece.

Of course, today, astrology is a joke. Discussion of ancient astrology is more likely to lead to anecdotes about Nancy Reagan's penchant for the divinatory arts, or references to strange, Christian hucksters in the States and their absurd attempts to divine the apocalypse, something medieval Islamic astrologers themselves regarded as a pointless exercise. What I am discussing here, of course, is as much a science as a tool to legitimize certain regimes, so it is no surprise that it is deeply formalized and systematized; legitimacy and monarchy are bound to discover what works and what does not, and astrology served an important role in that.

So let's talk about alchemy.

Alchemy today gets a sad reputation. It is relegated to the historical equivalent of those bowling halls your family takes you to when they don't really want to shell out, but the occasion is a celebration after all; denuded of people except strange characters you don't really want to talk to, the bowling screens full of low-quality and surreal effects and having little purpose except serving as a precursor to eating together later. Alchemy is permitted to be the ancestor of chemistry; a time of would-be geniuses united in the dream of spinning gold from air at best and a long litany of fraudsters at worst. It is far from the imagination of modern man that the hollowed out and empty husk that we call by the name of alchemy was once a lively field of its own, respected in its own right. Such understanding usually comes with assurances that people did not know better in those times. They couldn't help it.

So let's talk about a historical anecdote; an alchemist and his associates that would be right at home in Creation.

Phillip Sömmering arrived at the north German court of Duke Julius of Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel in 1571. Like many other alchemists at his time, he claimed to know how to transmute base metals into noble silver and royal gold. However, that was hardly all Phillip had to offer. To the Duke, he offered suggestions on how to improve productivity in the local mines, and his designs for a gun barrel that would shoot bullets absolutely straight intrigued the military minds at the court. He could claim a heady intellectual lineage too; as a former pastor, he had been trained by the close friend of Martin Luther, Melanchthon, and offered to help guide the Duke's court through the winds of the Reformation. He was promptly accepted as an advisor at the court at Wolfenbüttel. He and his associates had come to Wolfenbüttel from Gotha where they had experienced the chaos of the Reformation firsthand, but found that their stay at Wolfenbüttel was more fragile than they had first understood. Duke Julius' consort, the Duchess Hedwig, was suspicious of the alchemists, and especially opposed to the female alchemist Anna Maria Zieglerin, who seemed threatening to the dominant women of the court. The duke's sister, Margravess Katharina of Brandenburg, also came to dislike the alchemists when she visited in November. In the fall of 1573, the advisor Jobst Kettwig moved against the alchemists. He himself had obtained his powerful position as Military and Chamber Counselor through his connections to Phillip Sömmering, but his criminal past as a bandit and disturber of the peace in the territories of the Dano-Norwegian Crown caught up with him when Sömmering had him imprisoned in response to a warrant issued against him. Kettwig responded by alleging that the alchemists had presented themselves under false names, that they were frauds and that they "knew nothing of alchemy's secrets". Sömmering made a mistake that proved fatal. He assisted Kettwig in escaping from the prison, just as Julius received a letter from the elector of Brandenburg that further impugned the honesty of the alchemists. They were locked in the palace dungeons and interrogated over a year. The alchemists were executed in 1575. And all this because they hate to see an alchemist girlboss winning.

Alchemists in the 16th century Holy Roman Empire were far from figments of literary imagination, but "very real purveyors of practical techniques, inventions and cures". The alchemist was almost a central European constant and he could be found everywhere in princely laboratories, mining towns, urban centres, advising on mining projects, experimenting with medicines, making pearls or gemstones, selling recipes and writing books. Some practiced their art successfully and made their living and careers off it, others like Sömmering and Zieglerin found themselves meeting grisly ends at the accusation of being Betrüger: frauds, imposters, liars.

The 16th century was truly a golden age of alchemy. Such figures could be found everywhere, and as a result, there was a truly new interest not just in the practice, but in its discussion. Defining alchemy, defining the alchemist, defining goals and setting expectations through innumerable discussions, was a key interest of the time, and as a result the category of the fraudulent alchemist, the Betrüger was born. Of course, to us modern people, the idea of a fraudulent alchemist probably seems laughable at best; by definition, alchemy is a fraud that simply does not work. So are all alchemists not frauds? Not in the sixteenth century Holy Roman Empire. There was little doubt then, that fraudulent alchemists existed, and that they prospered by beguiling those ignorant of the true secrets of the alchemical art. There was a clear distinction between the art's true practitioners, proper alchemists, and those who merely lied, and maintaining this border was a matter of serious import. Let's devote a bit more time to thinking about this; is it not significant that at the time of their execution, not only did most of Sömmering's associates credit Zieglerin as the source of most of their ideas, likely to make her a scapegoat, but the authorities in question found it perfectly believable that a woman could be an alchemist, and an accomplished one at that?

For princes like Duke Julius, or Landgrave Moritz of Hessen-Kassel or Emperor Rudolf II of the Holy Roman Empire, the patronage of alchemy was an avenue, not just to alchemical secrets, but to gaining a certain image. Such men were seen as religiously tolerant, learned men who sought to master and hold dominion over the natural world in accordance with divine design, or as clever investors who hedged their bets on inventions and ingenuity. Alchemists, to the average urban inhabitant of the Holy Roman Empire, were not men like Newton and Boyle, but men like Sömmering and women like Zieglerin; self-taught entrepeneurs and workaday practitioners who studied not for the intellectual satisfaction but for the practical and material benefits that alchemy could provide. They were apothecaries, pastors, urban consumers of vernacular books, court ladies and gentlemen. Only rarely were they literate, Latinate scholars who could see their works into print. By numbers alone, such figures had a significant enough presence in German cities that it was notable. Alchemists did not exist at the margins of society, rather they lived at its very centre. Indeed, the practice of alchemy could be a very lucrative career, and a way to climb the social hierarchy and cross boundaries thought previously unthinkable. We might say, as Nummendal does, that the alchemist forms a recognizably modern figure; the self-taught entrepeneur whose social status depended on skill and talent. While noble courts formed important centres of the accumulation of knowledge, they were never sources for it. Alchemists found their skills elsewhere.

Alchemy, it seems, was always a secretive art. As a mid-sixteenth century alchemist put it, alchemy is "well-hidden because the old masters who found the art did not want to teach it to either their children or their friends; therefore he who finds this art is lucky, because it is not easily found." Despite this, and despite alchemical texts describing it as "the great gemstone and most noble pearl", alchemy seems to have been everywhere. Alchemists were never organized into guilds, as other professions were, and it was not present at universities or at the scholastic curriculum. The alchemist was warned to be "secretive and silent and should reveal his secret to no one." But nonetheless, in 1617, a cynical observer commented "Look and you will find the alchemist's primary transmutation to be of himself: A goldsmith becomes a goldmaker, an apothecary a chemical physician, a barber a Paracelsian, one who wastes his own patrimony turns into one who spends the gold and goods of others". Despite the secrecy of alchemy, the art was readily available to many. We find natural philosophers, Paracelsian physicians, court ladies, pastors, apothecaries, Jews and many others listed as alchemists when we look.

If we look at this sixteenth century alchemy, we find multiple distinct traditions. Alchemia medica aimed at medicines, alchemia transmutatoria took pride of place with its goal of turning metals into gold, alchemia technica aimed at achieving certain practical effects and alchemia mysticae encompassed a more mystical-christological understanding of the world, aiming to understand God through His creation. And to the practitioners and observers at the time, transmuting metals into gold through alchemia transmutatoria was indeed possible. Perhaps they lied, perhaps they misidentified events, perhaps they really could create gold, we don't really know and I'm not interested in the answer regardless of how impossible it probably is. History is full of anecdotes such as a Fugger banking record that the alchemist Marco Bragandino "changed a pound of quicksilver into gold some days ago". In their eyes, he did indeed transform quicksilver into gold.

Of course, we know (do we?) in modern terms that astrology does not work, and neither does alchemy. But I think the sheer intellectual effort and interest applied to either in the past justifies that they deserve a bit more of a treatment in Creation than a split between frauds who ultimately pretend for their own enrichment and a few who are gifted with a natural ability they have no control over. I do not think genetic, or accidental, thaumaturgy is more magical. This post turned into a bit, by which I mean a few two thousand words, more than I had initially planned, so I suppose coming after the entire discussion I reacted to had already ended has the advantage you can pretend that it is an inspirational post for various magical traditions found in Creation. I spent the entire morning writing this. I am going to be late for university and it is all your fault.
 
You gotta relay this stuff to me in Dragonball Z terms, I am totally unfamiliar with Bleach and I feel like a deer caught in the headlights of a truck when people talk about it.
Uh, hm. Bleach is just so much more accurate. Solars are Goku. They're just always gonna be better. Lunars and Sidereals are more like Vegeta and the current arc villain, where they can be even but have different tricks, I guess? DBZ just doesn't really have the granularity Bleach's powers do that actually sort of kind of map to Exalts.

Sidereals hit harder, they hit more accurately, they have amazing utility, but Lunars are way more durable and have more motes, especially when the Sidereal is young (they hit even, motewise at E5), and they get Mastery for Martial Arts, giving them the best combos around outside a couple of really nasty possibly broken ones Lunars can get via Attribute Charms.

Shapeshifting also provides a minimum combat investment that can be extremely potent, for fewer overall Charm picks than Sidereals usually need to be comparably powerful.
...

Of course, we know (do we?) in modern terms that astrology does not work, and neither does alchemy. But I think the sheer intellectual effort and interest applied to either in the past justifies that they deserve a bit more of a treatment in Creation than a split between frauds who ultimately pretend for their own enrichment and a few who are gifted with a natural ability they have no control over. I do not think genetic, or accidental, thaumaturgy is more magical. This post turned into a bit, by which I mean a few two thousand words, more than I had initially planned, so I suppose coming after the entire discussion I reacted to had already ended has the advantage you can pretend that it is an inspirational post for various magical traditions found in Creation. I spent the entire morning writing this. I am going to be late for university and it is all your fault.
Um, sorry. I really wasn't trying to say "those IRL people were all frauds or deluded, either assholes or idiots" (I don't know shit about chemistry, and I know alchemists would do neat chemistry stuff that isn't even possible in Creation due to physics differences, and I know they were generally pretty smart and educated people who were doing this sort of thing) so much as "if I'm running this in Creation and they're not using magic, they're probably a fraud or deluded or something really weird happened with fate".

Like, I won't argue that it deserves more of a treatment than how I tend to run it, but I, as a GM and homebrewer, would need to take, like, three or four classes or shell out for a bunch of books I probably wouldn't be able to understand to even begin to attempt to do that, so I'm just plain not going to. It's not an area I'm educated in, and it isn't an area I'm capable of pushing through my ADD to focus on. So what I care about is Creation's vibe re: small magics and stuff, rather than any sort of historical accuracy beyond the broadest "this is how humans who believed in this sort of thing behaved".
 
Solar Brawl can hit like a truck but has little defence, while Sidereal Brawl focuses on survival by taking other people hostage, with the target having to choose whether they suffer or someone else suffers.

Solar Archery is damage focused and Decisive attack focused, while Sidereal Archery is Gambit focused, with an eye towards having an answer to everything and hindering foes to let allies act.

Solar Melee has strong offence and defence, while Sidereal Melee works well with others, delays attacks until the last moment, and makes the Sidereal's presence something no one can ignore.

Solar Thrown is very sneaky, with tricks to act quickly once noticed, while Sidereal Thrown is open about its presence and forces enemies to maintain positioning that the Sidereal chooses.

In general I'd say that Solar or Lunar combat charmsets make the individual more powerful than a Sidereal as an individual, but Sidereal combat charmsets give more of a role on a team. Thrown handles positioning, Archery introduces weaknesses, Brawl maintains pressure, and Melee strikes at a moment of weakness. Sidereals work well together, and can slot into teams easily.
 
I mean, predicting the future with augury is something many societies did, and the people doing it certainly believed they were doing things. That's probably the core of the disagreement: the people who think Thaumaturgy should be more common have the opinion that these kinds of things are absolutely going on in Creation and that the people doing it shouldn't be largely be frauds. You're just taking the position that they should. Personally, I think having all of that be fraudulent when people can more easily converse with the gods or have greater magics investigate things greatly weakens the setting as a whole, as would somehow saying that it just doesn't happen in Creation for some unexplained reason.
Thinking you are doing something and it not being the case isn't fraudulant. It's just being misinformed. This is notable for Earth too. I'm kind of with them on this. Folks do plenty of things that we know, for a fact, did not work, never did work, and never will work. That doens't mean folks didn't genuinely believe htey would, put effort into it, and it was important to them.

Creation just happnes to have better-than-zero odds that some of it does. BUt I don't see a need to make it so common we assume it usually does. This is actually closer to what thaumaturgy actually is in a scholarship sense (again, rather htan the "magic as science" sense in pop culture), and even closer to what it is in a lot of the fiction Exalted drew on origianlly (Dying Earth fatnasy name, as well as Tanith Lee.)
 
Thinking you are doing something and it not being the case isn't fraudulant. It's just being misinformed. This is notable for Earth too. I'm kind of with them on this. Folks do plenty of things that we know, for a fact, did not work, never did work, and never will work. That doens't mean folks didn't genuinely believe htey would, put effort into it, and it was important to them.
Real astrologers and alchemists discovered immense amounts of facts about how our world works and created many practical things, such as various medical compounds or the practical components of alchemia practica, so I don't see why thaumaturgists in Creation could not discover similar small magics in Creation, even if we accept that their overall methodology does not work. As mentioned, Sömmering delivered a way to improve mine production and an improved gun barrel (as well as theological learning, but that is separate from his alchemical skills), in addition to his contract in which he promised the transmutation of base materials into gold, so why should an alchemist in Creation not discover similar natural sciences as well as magical tricks here and there? Those are not neatly separable in Creation. The purpose of the insistence that things work in Creation as they do in our world unless otherwise stated is not to actually make it as our world, it's to avoid people thinking themselves into corners about magical minutiae.
 
Last edited:
The only point was the gesture, basically. I realized it'd be trivial to rephrase it so more games could slot it in, but didn't have the wherewithal to do something more complicated.

Effective use of magical ingredients is a thing, but IMO that's just craft plus magic ingredients? Do a Major project, make a slave that gives some healing bonus, that sort of thing.

Rain dances that work by an ancient compact would equally just be like, they do a performance roll? You gotta be in that area or of that people, but yeah, Creation is full of that sort of thing, IMO. It's just not thaumaturgy, and isn't something you can just make happen however. It's a magical plant, or a rain deity that you routinely bribe with prayer and adoration who makes it rain if you do the dance right.

I dunno, maybe we're just intensely disagreeing on specific wording? What I don't want to happen is for blacksmiths to be actually talking to small gods of specific forges, for individual plants to have their own spirits, or for just anyone to be able to do augury and get accurate fortune telling out of it just by studying it because that's just how reality works and it's Creation's version of science.

I am 100% in favor of a bunch of pacts with E1 and E2 spirits of this river or that area of sky leading to effective rain dances that exist in different varieties and under different conditions depending on where you go. I am equally in favor of the god of the fruit grove near your village being able to hear specific prayers and if someone asks sweetly, be willing to provide fresh fruit of fine quality, even if the season isn't quite right, or for a wise woman to be able to lay her hands on someone and cure their cholera because she brings fruit and cream to the local disease spirit, and he's blessed her with this power. I wouldn't systemize this into a thing, but those are all examples of stuff I'd include in the background of a game I ran, or an NPC a PC could chat with stopping in on some small town, to give it some local magic.

I just don't want rain dances to be this reliable thing that anyone can do if they follow the steps right, no spirits needed, or for just anyone to be able to learn to cure cholera with tea and chakra manipulation, as a reproducible thing literally anyone can learn.
...
Kind of going over this, this somewhat hits some of what I said earlier. What thaumaturgy was in 2e was too much stuff. What it is in 3e is assuming 2e's too much stuff, but instead of trying ot adress that, neglected the "Shit you just do with existing Abilities" sorta stuff. Some things 2e mechanized didn't need to be anything but just how you use things. Performance, Occult, Craft (various osrts), Survival, Medicine, and Lore do a lot of things thaumaturgy was doing in 2e. What they don't do is captured by as you note, weirdos who do things beyond the baseline interacitons raw matter in Creation does. For most folks an almanac is better for weather prediciton than prophecy...but sometimes you got the girl hwo can tea leave her way to predicting things. Most walkaway charms are feel goods....but sometimes osmeon makes one that works.

And again, the big thing to me is that I don't think things need to be mechanically reified for them to like, be things folks in Creation practice. I think the whole "No one is really incentivized to do this' kind of comes form a take that the settin'gs mechanics are trying to replicate realistic presenation of what is or is not supernatural, rather than just the sort of thing that cna just be ambiguous a lot and something folks do since people do rituals.
 
Real astrologers and alchemists discovered immense amounts of facts about how our world works and created many practical things, such as various medical compounds or the practical components of alchemia practica, so I don't see why thaumaturgists in Creation could not discover similar small magics in Creation, even if we accept that their overall methodology does not work. As mentioned, Sömmering delivered a way to improve mine production and an improved gun barrel (as well as theological learning, but that is separate from his alchemical skills), in addition to his contract in which he promised the transmutation of base materials into gold, so why should an alchemist in Creation not discover similar natural sciences as well as magical tricks here and there? Those are not neatly separable in Creation. The purpose of the insistence that things work in Creation as they do in our world unless otherwise stated is not to actually make it as our world, it's to avoid people thinking themselves into corners about magical minutiae.
The main thing is that while alchemists figured out good chemcials, Ethiopian blacksmiths made steel, and astrologers could forecase eclipses via math, they also never transformed lead to gold, turned into hyenas, or actually predicted the rise and fall of kings.

This is a bit what I mean on how thaumaturgy did too much in 2e. 1e had it where things in the former category were different from things in the latter. Some things are just applications of Abilities that skilled people using ritual pratice to do can and did do. Other things are things they thought they could do but again, never could, and never did. The thing Creaiton has different is in the second gorup, soem folks can. But as 2e presented it, basically it always could.

To my feel and I think what Kaiya is trying to present is that some things are perfectly fine to replicatable and even explainable via magic. The issue is that not all of it needs to be, and to an extent, should be. Since as much as some folks liek the "everything is magical", some folks do appreciate the "Some folks are innocently wrong or scammers" being something that can be out htere.

The medicine woman knowing how to use willow bark as a pain-killer is agian, something fine for Survival, Medicine, Lore, or Craft (AlchemY) to do. It doesn't need a special widget. Creation works like Earth until it odesn't. The doesn't is something fuzzy, but I think whether she can make any folk medicine work, or just that a subset is basic chemsitry and some of it is placebo, is osmething that should be possible.

And in all of this, what thaumaturgy the player-facing thing probably is going to more often be representations of you being someone who can do the acutally supernatural stuff, which is not something anyone can do. WHich is how Exalted 1e did present stuff in the PG somewhat (not everyoen could do everything and some things were just magical like how some Merits worked) and how 3e is going (where things worth pointing out as byeond just baic uses of the Abilits are the mechanical widgets....it jusst so happnes a lot of the sample ones fucking suck to actually buy.)
 
I must again emphasize, as I did as the very first thing in my big post, that I do not care for defending 2e Thaumaturgy. I think it is wholly uninteresting and a tiresome object of discussion, which I can only pray that our community frees itself from with time. Nor do I care to defend, or even engage with 1e Thaumaturgy either, despite having the whole ruleset in a book not even a meter away from my right arm. I am here, in defence of small magics and magical scholarship in all its forms, not in defence of any model of Thaumaturgy as it has been characterized in any edition of Exalted. If it was the position of the third edition of Exalted that any mortal skilled in say, Medicine or Lore or Melee or whatever could perform certain small magics then I would be interested though still somewhat skeptical since this is not how any system of magical scholarship has functioned circa ever, but that is not the position of Exalted 3e.
 
Last edited:
Like to add I guess to your longer post @Chehrazad , and also that I'm replying as I find things and the way replies work on this forum are weird, and I missed your longer post. I agree with your first part there on systems. And I'm also one to not call folks in the past frauds. That's the big thing too I think you highlight. Folks today who think astrology is real are worng. Folks in thepast were working with a worldview that worked with observations and evidence they had and the level of scrutiny they accepted. Modern people are actually fucking weird with how much we delve deep on soem stuff like that.

And in general in all of this, Exalted has kind of just beeen shitty at trying to capture this, as I think it either swings too hard into the "It's all real, actually" like 2e thaumaturgy did or it makes being a person genuinely able to do beyond-baseline-system stuff sof ucking arudous (Merit + expensive sub Merits) that it kind of isn't worth it.
 
Last edited:
Also will note fully agree on needing more small magical traditions, whether or not they do "actual magic". Again, I think there's kind of a view by some that unless it's reflected in something a PC can do, why even include it? Or that if it is not actually supernatural, why would folks do it? And I think there's honeslty a need for just ambiguity on stuff. Like the folk magics in The Realm honestly were some of the coolest way for me to present stuff like that. SHow what folks do. Be neutral on whether it actually does anything or not.

The game I'm running right now has an alchemist guild as one of the major organizaitons around. They have their history, religious bleiefs in relation to the Abhadi Creed, a major university, and beliefs about how everything is related to themes of crucibles, admixture, and such which doesn't align 1:1 to Creaiton's usual five elements. It's a shallow take on a bit of what I know from European stuff, but it gets the aestheitc accrosss.

I don't need them to have mechanical widgets to be something people in the setting believe in or find interesting. They can operate on their understnading of Creation, its laws, and its rules and stuff do things we on Earth often associate with alchemy. ANd some fo the things they do would probably still be supernatural to us, like I dunno, artifical firedsut, or sleep pots ala soemthing from Elden Ring, materials we can't make on Earth, or soemthing that some partcular species of water elemental finds fucking delicious and so happens to attract them. But they probably will find it futile to turn lead to gold, even if they probably have some sort of Magnum Opus thing going on.
 
<Anya>

So here is a neat Thaumaturgy I just thought of:
people having a tradition of hanging up paper charms on a central tree in their village so that it radiates enough warmth that they are comfortably warm enough in the winter to stay around it outdoors during the night, for religious reasons.

And I don't care why this works, cause that's not important! Could be that this just makes fire elementals happy, or that it's minor geomancy, or something, not important! What I do care about is that there's parents teaching their kiddos how to craft those charms, and putting the finishing touches on the important ones, and the rest of the village does the decorating, so that it is done in time for the an important winter festival.

And for that it needs to be something that people can learn without it being super special, but it is of course okay if everyone gets taught and only a few people are good at it!

And this would be something really nice to just run into during a game, or also to introduce during a game to make a celebration at another village faancy, or maybe just to have a nice shelter while it's cold somewhere.

So rules where Thaumaturgy is not something you need to spend XP on for each Ritual would be good for something like this, because if you need to spend XP on it you probably would not do it, but if you can just do a nice thing, you can do nice things that make the world more interesting! And it'd be similar to introducing Introducing Facts, which you can already do and which is a mutual agreement thingy where things need to fit into the world.



If we were to write rules for this in Exalted 3E we'd probably keep Thaumaturgist a Merit so that not everyone does Thaumaturgy, but it'd be something you can learn and it'd be more common. And then make it so that Rituals are tied to various skills (Craft, Medicine, Occult, Survival etc.) and are (similar to?) Lore Specialities for those skills. So e.g. you have Occult (Astrology) and that lets you use the Rituals your character reasonably knows, and if you want to come up with a new ritual, it's like Introducing a Fact. And Charms that give you Thaumaturgy and free Rituals get changed to be like one's that give you free Lore Specialities, and maybe add bonuses on introducing new ones.

This does not neatly work with what I talked about above unless the village has a thaumaturgist or three but for that, you could make it so that a specific Speciality could unlock specific Rituals too. So there could be people with Craft (Winter Tree Decorating Technique) that could just do the one thing.
 
Last edited:
Personally, I just like Exalted being a world suffused with magic and so having all the little superstitious and rituals and small magics we practice in *this* world being real magic in Exalted makes the setting feel more rich to me.

But I'm also of the camp that lots of stuff that would be mundane in our world should be magic in Exalted. The proper season to grow crops should differ throughout the world not because of different climates but because of ancient pacts between the people and the local gods (big and small). The Nile should make the land extra fertile because the waters there are literally blessed. Salt should prevent food from spoiling because it is high in earth essence and thus inherently resistant to change. Etc.
Adding on to this, @Kaiya, I'll just point to one of my old posts here.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

General Exalted Thread

fwiw, the Baron was enormous, but not very bright. Which is why a spider totem changing moon could trick him into basically bug zapping himself. "the other fey lords think you're too dim to do this. maybe if you ate something that would brighten you up..."
 
Like, I won't argue that it deserves more of a treatment than how I tend to run it, but I, as a GM and homebrewer, would need to take, like, three or four classes or shell out for a bunch of books I probably wouldn't be able to understand to even begin to attempt to do that, so I'm just plain not going to. It's not an area I'm educated in, and it isn't an area I'm capable of pushing through my ADD to focus on. So what I care about is Creation's vibe re: small magics and stuff, rather than any sort of historical accuracy beyond the broadest "this is how humans who believed in this sort of thing behaved".
For me, it's probably because of my executive dysfunction and autism and other diagnoses that I'm so invested in historical data. When I was in elementary school, I read reference books more than anything; there are still dusty, faded memories of the rough carpeting against my legs as I sat in front of the school library's reference section, poring over books on gemstones and plants and prehistoric life. As I got older and started getting into both tabletop gaming and creative work, a lot of that trivia I'd soaked up got incorporated into those pursuits.

My brain is very well-disposed toward vanishing down tangled rabbit holes of "did you know X?", to the point where I have an easier time now reading through PDFs of a 60s-era academic manuscript on the role of snakes in Mesopotamian culture than I did fording through this week's chapter of my middle school history textbook. For me, the historical is almost universally useful for creative work, because it gives you structures and ideas and technologies and traditions that you can steal, remix, and use to help flesh out an idea or inspire an entirely new one.

Even the history of bunkum - animal magnetism, shem stones, mudfossils, internal alchemy, cryptids - can be turned into fuel for fiction, or at worst help you get a rough grasp on what strikes the average reader as silly versus intriguing.

Which, as you can tell from me reverting to "you" in the last few paragraphs, is where my diagnoses become a hassle. It's extremely hard for me to remember that these are things I myself experience, rather than universal phenomena. My mind is often too deeply ensnared within the webs of dysfunction, personal tastes, and ingrained habits that generally drive my actions to spare effort and time on working out how someone else might perceive something.
 
Unrelatedly to the previous conversation: finally (finally) finished the first part of the pdf. So much of the actual landscape of Yu-Shan is wonderfully realized but the Jade Pleasure Dome (and it's weird in a good way to see it get so much like- exterior study and attention, the shadow it casts on Heaven and the impression it makes instead of it's role as a mystery box), the notes on the weather and climate and how weird it gets, and the sense of life in this enormous city are genuinely fantastic.

The Last Clutch of the Wood Dragon is probably one of my personal favorites of the set. I'm a sucker for vast urban sprawl being subsumed by overgrowth and choked with vegetation. And the situation of the Cherished Reapers is compelling, the Reapers themselves have a cool aesthetic and dynamic, and you can work them into a lot of plots or have them henching for a Sidereal PC pretty easily.
 
Last edited:
These minor spirits are often weak and dull-witted, representative of some disease or emotional malaise, and dependent on the practitioner to sustain it on the plights and fears of her community. Stronger spirits formalize this partnership better, demanding an equal share of recognition by the way of regular sacrifices, integration as a medium into her various performances and skimming prayers from those in need. But one simply cannot go bringing a spirit around everyday people's homes without causing a stir, so the standard practice is for the spirit to take up semi-permanent residence inhabiting a domestic animal the cunning man or woman may have on-hand. Barn cats, stray dogs and pets are common subjects for spirit possession as a makeshift spy, though enterprising souls may get away with substituting a chicken or goat if it would be more inconspicuous. More intelligent, proud spirits may insist on a more noble vessel, like a monkey, horse or even a hawk to move publicly as her eyes and ears, though this can make for a great deal more inconvenience when she must employ a highly distinctive animal as part of her practice, and claim no prior knowledge of its errant wanderings through town.
This whole set of thread marks is good, and I really appreciate the effort you've gone to in order to make the magical practiced of creation resemble those of our earth, even if the mechanisms are different. This is a good illustrative example as it gives excuse for the witch and her familiar trope you see so often.
 
For me, 2e-style thaumaturgy* does one really key thing: it makes it obvious for players that Creation is a world filled with magic everywhere, even if they never read any of the setting material.

* Not necessarily the specifics of it, but the idea that anyone can learn everyday magic with some skill investment and only a little extra training.

3e-style thaumaturgy implies exactly the opposite from its mechanics and brief writeup (e.g. "most village shamans are just powerless weirdos who are objectively wrong"), and that's why I deeply dislike it.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I don't think many people talking about having more common access to thaumaturgy actually want 2e's implementation.
 
There are like, specific effects and details I'd want to carry over from the 2e implementation, to maintain within the possibility space of what a hypothetical Good 3e Thaumaturgy would do? Things like the explosives, poisons, healing, conjuring-without-binding demons, the ease of magic appraisal and blood magic, the unguents for seeing ghosts and other spirits, etc, and how the system establishes that these are things that you don't have to be exceptional to pull off, yeah, that I'd want to keep. Conjuring demons without binding them alone is like, that's rife with all sorts of plothooks. But the 2e system overall- nah. I like the ideas in it, the execution is more than a bit clunky.
 
Honestly, the big change I would make if porting 2e Thaum over to a new edition would to decouple it from Occult and instead tie it to examples of things you can do with a successful skill roll.

So if you wanted to preserve food that could be Occult, Survival or Craft
 
Like most of my arguments about 3e Thaumaturgy have been mechanical in nature. 'How can something give me 9 merit dots and I still don't want it'. Though that's because in the type of player who wants most systems to be at least partially useful for some kind of PC, even if it's not Solar tier.

I'd like to be able to 'dip' into Thaumaturgy without it feeling like a complete and utter waste of resources. Every exalted sorcerer gets the merit for 'free' but I suspect the number that have actually used it are a single digital %. Which is a shame because there is a lot of fun out there from playing a sorcerer who pretends to be a Thaumaturge and can back it up at times. Then when you get to have your 'playing with the big boys now' moment, you show why people shouldn't mistake you for a conjurer of cheap tricks.

Dunno, I like the idea that a wandering exalted sorcerer might occasionally decide to apprentice with a seemingly unworthy mortal for a season or two to learn their wisdom.
 
The best way to do thaumaturgy, imo, would be to take notes from Ventures in Essence and actually go through the entire, multi-step process and/or ritual in order to achieve the thaumaturgical effect or product.

Take the repeatedly mentioned blacksmith and their historical mystical position and prowess. I see no reason why you couldn't do a Craft Venture to blacksmith something, and then introduce obstacles and advantages that leverage occult knowledge, skill, and resources in order to blacksmith something, but with magic. Mechanically it wouldn't be all that different, but the trappings, the feel, the flavor of the overall process, would achieve an outcome I at least would find satisfactory for representing non-Sorcery magic.
 
Back
Top