General Exalted Thread

[Cosar]

I know, right? It's astonishing.

But seriously, Werewolves did not go "raargh raargh we have gifts because we are associated with animals and shapeshift" (the problem with 1E Lunars and 2E ones as well) it was more "raaargh raargh we are the chosen guardians of this world, half spirit and half flesh, and this gives us a huge arsenal of hilarious bullshit." Last I checked, inciting riots isn't something you can do by being SO FURRY (and that is an actual Werewolf Gift), nor is "turning another supernatural's power used against you into another Gift (again, another Werewolf Gift)."

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Regarding Lunars/Werewolves, I think I remember someone on the old WW forums saying that the issue with Lunars isn't that it takes to much from the werewolf line, but that it restricts itself to a lot of the pop-culture view of werewolves rather than the other property.

One of the weird things is that he hasn't the Infernal in the party with any nerfsticks, and We have both Slave Spawn Summons, and What lurks beneath.

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Sounds like you really need to talk to your ST about both the type of game he wants to have and what kinds of effects he wants to have be availible.

 

[Tahu1809]

So as some you may know I am going to try an Exalted game in a short while. Do any of you have any suggestions for a first time GM?

 

[Cosar]

So as some you may know I am going to try an Exalted game in a short while. Do any of you have any suggestions for a first time GM?

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Know if you're going to use the 2.5 errata or not.
Note that there's no such thing as a level one character: I assume you mean a 0xp character?
Also, due to it's nature, you're going to want to be a bit more hands on regarding character creation: backgrounds especially can be problematic.
If you don't have a resource, I would suggest being extremely strict with allowing anything from said resource.
You probably want to let the players know the general area that the game is starting in: travel in creation can be pretty difficult and time consuming, and some things are tied to areas.

 

[azoicennead]

So as some you may know I am going to try an Exalted game in a short while. Do any of you have any suggestions for a first time GM?

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Simplified NPCs are super useful. Even if you don't use that exact system, just having set dice pools cuts the time needed to build NPCs massively.

If you're going to pit your players against hordes of one kind of enemy, make a mound of health out of them with boosted dice pools that mechanically represents a significant portion. This speeds up gameplay and allows large groups of non-threatening enemies to actually be relevant. I've posted about it previously, and so far it seems to be working out pretty well. Having 5 NPCs to handle instead of 23 is way easier on me.

Make it clear if you have a part of the game you want to focus on; I told my players before they made their characters that I wanted to focus on combat, so they should keep that in mind while making their characters.
Also, make it clear if you want really serious roleplaying, or if you'll let them indulge in shenanigans (like the PC in my game whose motivation is combating shame and has taken an oath of nudity [as in, the Oath flaw, meaning he'll face divine retribution if he breaks it] simply because he never mentioned wearing clothes when he was introduced and none of us noticed, so he rolled with it*).

* No, I don't run serious games. Fucker got a boosted stunt for doing the helicopter dick.

 

[Aaron Peori]

Simplified NPCs are super useful. Even if you don't use that exact system, just having set dice pools cuts the time needed to build NPCs massively.

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Yay! I'm useful!

 

[Wi'se]

Regarding Lunars/Werewolves, I think I remember someone on the old WW forums saying that the issue with Lunars isn't that it takes to much from the werewolf line, but that it restricts itself to a lot of the pop-culture view of werewolves rather than the other property.

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More or less agreed, in addition to a flawed portrayal overall in both editions. I'll leave it at that since I don't wish to start a digital knife fight.

As for oWOD, Exalted being the prequel or even the future of that world (this was dropped a few times as an option) never bothered me. I can understand how some see it as sort of implying that this was Creation's ultimate fate so any plans you had were irrelevant. Still, it's easy to ignore. It's not like it was ever set in stone as, "In ten years, after the Empress returns, it's now the WOD". I always looked at it just like the Hyborian Age and Middle Earth being "our past".

Also, due to it's nature, you're going to want to be a bit more hands on regarding character creation: backgrounds especially can be problematic.
If you don't have a resource, I would suggest being extremely strict with allowing anything from said resource.
You probably want to let the players know the general area that the game is starting in: travel in creation can be pretty difficult and time consuming, and some things are tied to areas.

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This reminds me of one of my groups aborted attempts to play Exalted. We had one player who refused to comply with the storyteller's decision of no followers. Each character was suppose to be largely on their own and in "wandering about mode" after their exaltation. The stubborn player was mad because he wanted a mercenary army since he was a mercenary. The stories would not work if we had like 50 mercs following us everywhere. And he would not stop grumbling about it even though he was assured he'd have plenty of opportunity to get an army later on.

 

[Gnarker]

So, some time back I promised some more Abyssal Charms. Thing is, as I know not much at all about Exalted's numerical rulings and balancing, I've kind of run into a brick wall. Here's what I managed to get out anyway, but any kind of comment on this (and All-is-Weaponry Approach a few pages back too!), especially in the way of aformementioned numbers and balancing would be very much appreciated;

Unraveling the Sorcerous Threads

Sorcery and Necromancy always have difficulties affecting each other, the Raw Force of Creation entirely incompatible with the Power of Death. But Necromancers are masters at unmaking, and Abyssal Necromancers especially so.

This Charm permanently upgrades the Abyssals Necromantic Countermagic and Banishment so that it affects Sorcery up to an equal Circle, instead of one below; Emerald with Iron, Sapphire with Onyx, Adamant with Obsidian.


House of Eternity

The Abyssals are the Exalted of the Underworld, regularly communing and dealing with Ghosts. But sometimes, their business may take them to Creation, where their businesspartners may not be able to follow them.

This Charm allows the Abyssal to act as a safe refuge for up to (Essence x 5) ghosts and similar immaterial beings potentially capable of possession, sheltering them from detection and hazards as an object posessed by relevant Arcanoi would. The Abyssal can freely communicate with his passengers (potentially allowing him to employ their expertise, if they are inclined to give it), may allow them access to his senses if he wants to, and can normally eject any ghosts he wants as a miscellaneous action.

Beware Nemissaries however, for a particularly shameless (and stupid, considering the nature of the landlord) Stringless Pupeteer may rudely exploit such an invitation to try and take control of the body.
A Nemissary inside the shelter of this Charm counts as possessing the Abyssal, and may use his Arcanoi accordingly. If the passenger could possess someone by himself, the cost to bar him from the ferryman's senses or evict him for one scene each rises to one Willpower, subject to modification by relevant Arcanoi.

The Abyssal may also forcefully invite unwilling guests. To do so, he has to first win a grappling contest or otherwise force the issue. Thereafter, the cost to prevent a ghost from leaving for a scene is always one willpower, though there are of course ways around that.


Soul-Crushing Grip

The Abyssal's grasp may shatter muscle, bone, life, and even the very soul.

This is a grappling charm - it is activated when the Abyssal initiates or sustains a grappling attack, and automatically ends when said grapple does. It has several effects;
First, it lets the Abyssal's grappling affect immaterial beings such as ghosts.
Second, the Abyssal's hands reach through armor, skin, and flesh, to tear at the target's very soul instead. His grappling inflicts Aggravated Damage.
Third, should the target die while this charm is active, his screaming soul is torn free of his body, and immediately becomes a ghost. Said ghost is caught in the Abyssal's grasp as if nothing had happened - both the grapple and this charm continue, seamlessly switching target to the new ghost instead of his now-discarded body which slumps to the ground a dead empty husk.

If the Abyssal also knows House of Eternity, he may also make grappling attacks on any ghostly resident of himself should he deem them getting too unruly, using nothing but his will (and this charm) alone. This application substitutes attributes like Mind-Hand Manipulation.


Chains like Ghostly Fetters

From the Abyssals Aura up to (Essence x 2) ghostly chains emerge, misty and fainly translucent, but as cold and solid as any steel. These act as extra limbs without fine manipulators, can stretch up to (Essence x 10) yards, and with the shackles at the end can make grappling attacks. They can always affect incorporeal beings. The chains may substitute attributes like Mind-Hand Manipulation does, if desired.

If the Abyssal also knows House of Eternity, he may freely attack and tie down any of his residents with these same chains. This does not count against the number of chains he can manifest externally, but does require a charm activation. It also always uses the Attribute Substitution.


Screaming Mealstrom Maw

The Abyssal sucks in a great and long breath of air, and gravewind rushes into his mouth with with a shrieking noise, never to be seen again. Around him forms a Vortex (Essence x 5) yards across, dragging everyone within towards him by (Essence) yards every turn as a Knockback effect. Immaterial Beings such as Ghosts are particularly susceptible and double the Knockback.
If an Immaterial Being would normally touch the Abyssal while this Charm is active, it has to either evade, brace itself somehow, or otherwise defend. It rolls (Essence + appropriate attribute and ability), with the Abyssal's Essence as target. If it fails, it is dragged into his mouth by the howling air, likely howling alongside it, and ends up in the Abyssal's House of Eternity-provided space.

This Charm also rips free any fresh ghosts from corpses in the area of effect, should any have yet to rise.

Obviously, for the duration of this Charm the Abyssal may not use his mouth for anything else.


Cold Soul Furnace

The Abyssal devours a ghost and burns it's Essence for sustenance. He may now regain motes by eating a ghost in the much same way that drinking someone's blood allows.

If the Abyssal also knows House of Eternity, he can also attempt to devour one of the ghosts within, provided he can stop the ghost from resisting and fleeing from his soul post-haste.


Borrowed Memories

The Abyssal may fall back on the skills of any Ghosts he houses with House of Eternity. If the ghost in question spends a willpower, the Abyssal may for the rest of the scene use the Ghost's skills in place of his own. The ghost, obviously, has to cooperate or at least not resist for this to work.
Multiple ghosts may contribute to this charm at the same time, in that case simply take the highest value in each skill.

As long as this Charm is active, the Abyssal also counts as having a teacher in the skills in question.


Champion of the Dead

The Abyssal Exalted are, among other things, mediators between the World of the Living and the Underworld, and champions of the dead. How fitting then, that they should channel a vengeful ghost's righteous wrath while helping him get even.

This Charm allows ghosts housed in the House of Eternity to channel Virtues and Intimacies on behalf of the Abyssal; The ghosts expend the channel and willpower, the Abyssal gains the bonus. Obviously this is only applicable towards actions the ghost could use the channel on were he to do them himself.

Cooperation in this Charm cannot be forced; The ghost in question has to contribute actively, and the action has to resonate with his intimacies appropriately.


Gaze of the Silent Mien (also known as Overlord's Helmet Prana)​

For the duration of this Charm, the Abyssal loses the ability to speak. In exchange he can generally make himself understood with a mere stare, and gains (Essence) bonus dice to any intimidation attempts (and any other task that would be aided by silently staring at someone. But mostly Intimidation).

This Charm can be bought as permanent mutation. This Charm is Obvious.



AN: So. A Charm to upgrade Nercromancy which resonates thematically and, I feel, is not overpowered, given that it merely ups Necromancy Countermagic to equal that of Sorcery, a social buff with a cost, not a huge one, but it does impede disguising your nature by a lot, and a Charm-cascade revolving around possessing yourself with ghosts and then, either work together to accomplish mutual goals, or simply chain them down and burn them for essence with which to make more ghosts to devour in one giant, self-sustaining slaughterfest. Or hey, with the right incentive, such as avenging their deaths, perhaps they'll sacrifice themselves even willingly.
Thoughts?

The big reason this took so long was that I got pretty sidetracked by various homebrew, especially for Sorcery and Necromancy, and inevitably came up with my own ideas, that I then couldn't work out the particulars. Namely:

Corrosive Flames of Entropy
A fire that, instead of (only) burning physical matter, burns attributes, skills, memories, intimacies, sickness and poison, mutations, etc. I think the best option would be to refund XP so lost skills can be relearned (versus losing those skills for good which would propably be OP or lost skills simply regenerating over time which runs counter the spell's theme) to avoid massive imbalance, but fundamentally what was lost is lost for good, including memories and intimacies, though they may of course be replaced if possible. The latter would need some kind of protection though; Not until temporary will is depleted? Shaping?
Applications would involve supplementing training by freeing up XP, removing negative traits, hollowing a person out so you can remold the empty husk in your image, or simply a nasty area-denial-effect.

Wall of Fog
Mirroring 'Impenetrable Frost Barrier', this was originally intended as a shield against ranged attacks that works by corroding projectiles to dust and even weakening essence attacks.
Then, to make it more distinct, I wanted to add in that it also decays people and other objects, but got stuck on balancing. Because IFB is mobile, I ended up discovering that that would make this pretty much a creeping gas attack, and then I got to thinking that I could make lower-circle upgrades expand on causing damage, and then I discovered that what was originally a defensive/area-denial spell had become a grey-goo-nanite style WMD. And of course I still don't know how to balance that.
Help me sort this out, please?

 

[SerGregness]

What's his reasoning? Otherwise, well, it looks like your dm has odd but very firm ideas about balance.

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So. Update: Had a long talk with the ST tonight and tried hashing some things out. Didn't really get a solution, but did elucidate some of his feelings on the matter. Here are what I saw as the most relevant bits (with minor notes and edits bracketed):

Not Tiger Warrior - any experience debt charm (of which there are many). It's fine to train fast - but there must be some point where the experience debt becomes too much - they make heroic mortals look like total crap and it's extremely unbelieveable (when given no limits). [Verisimilitude] is import - as much so as a good story. The two go hand in hand.

Ok - no experience debt limits. But that means the npc's will follow the lack of limits as well. [NATURE-REINFORCING ALLOCATION (Gregness' note: Some sort of Lunar equivalent to Beastial Traits Technique, not all that familiar with it)]
[imagine] Tyrant Lizards and Ice Weasels that have no limits with this charm. No image truly scary familiars like Animal Avatars and Godblooded Beasts?
[No limits] on mutations and the skills are open to the PC's level.

[note: this actually came later in the conversation, but it's on this earlier topic so I'm putting it here]
Why are the Lunars not sending 50 soak eagles that blot out the sun and breath lighting out into Creation at a cruise speed of 200 mph every few months to destroy the Realms assets?
The mechanics support that ^
The fluff does not.


Mutations, also, they have like what 12 HL's? Mutate Stamina for more, giant for more - double all at the end.
Imbue Amalgam. With no caps - I could make a critter that could take out the whole group. Would that be believable? Nope. I want things to be believable.
Infinite exp - bad. From any source, spent on anything, its all bad.

[Gregness' note: I called him on basically invoking the Exalted equivalent of Godwin's Law by bringing up Imbue Amalgam]

Yurgan is a Dawn. He has 1000 Tiger Warriors. They are not maxed in everything and he's had 6 years.

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At this point, there was a small digression with one of the other players about whether Tiger Warriors should even be extras anymore since they'd be amongst the best warriors in creation, alongside the Brides of Ahlat.

I took us back on topic eventually

[A bunch of the sample Solars, (Dace, Panther, Etc) and their DV's of ~5. I made a comment about them not being optimized]
Optimized...I said I wanted an unoptimized game. I straight said min/maxers could find the door. People starting the game with 15 acc. and 10 D.V. is total bs. I don't kill people for nothing - I just want the Exalted PC's to reflect as the same thing, in the same ball park, as the other Exalts. They are supposed to be equal.
Not saying that's the case here.
Just, fuck, 5 DV is the norm.

Optimized characters is why this game is broken under so many ST's. Why people say Dragon Bloods suck and are worthless.

People bend and stretch the mechanics rather than playing towards the fluff.
Exalted was a WhiteWolf game. Storyteller system. Story is what its all about.
I don't know where so many got lost.

I've seen a lot of games where Infernals become Devil Tigers and then become Immortal Primordial things in like 1 year. Its stupid Gurren Lagann'esk stuff. I'm telling a Conan/Romance of the Three Kingdoms game. It's deeply sunk into Sword and Sandals style of play, grity and mysterious. The game is more like World of Darkness. A vampire is stronger than a man, most see them as beneith notice. Yet, the vampire still hides and knows several could slay them and have killed their kind. Exalted are far above men, but still have so many of mens weaknesses. It's more Vampire level than Superhero level (bullets plinking off the chest - immune to all harm...as many play Exalted. There are no stories like that in cannon)

Turning farmers, people with ribs showing, feet broken and bleeding from a thosand mile march where half their number died...their spirits strained to the limit. Turning them into the greatest warriors in Creation in a couple months is...insane. Immaculate Monks train decades of their lives using very developed systems with an impressive support structure.

[My reaction to being told that trying to turn these people into the greatest army in creation was insane: "Worthy of a Solar ]

[another player chimed in here]
I think the point is that it doesn't thematically make sense for near-new Solars to roll up and stomp the forces of two great houses within a handful of months with their super army
If it was that easy, it'd have been done already

[GM again]
The satus quo is being upset. Big names are moving, refuges have hope, but even Jesus did not destroy Rome. Even god in the freaking Bible did not destroy Egypt. I mean there are limits.

PC's get none. [referring to XP debt]
Debt is stupid
Its a childish thing of wanting your cake now - it must be earned.

Pretty much everything in the book has been on the block for bs. BP's are one of the big ones. Causes 60+ expereince swings and locks people into one true builds.
That is why the ST must lead the group through all the bs that breaks the game.
Lend some realism to it all.

[At this point I took a page from the first round of responses and asked why we weren't playing a Terrestrial game or something]

Players have to check themselves or most of the charms can break the game, yes. I've seen plenty of games, at the solar level, run well. It just takes self policing.

I've never seen a game run well that allowed the PC's to face roll Creation. The Realm has a grip on all of Creation. They are, fluff wise, supposed to be able to deal with young Solars forever (up to several years old in the past). Lunars often get into the hundreds, they still swat them down without the Realm missing a beat, the world blinking.

[On the subject of demons, since at this point I brought up the sorcerer in the party]
Demons are ok because they chafe at their collar. They have their own desires that will cause problems for the summoner. They have limit breaks. The world often turns on those that use them.

[sometime later in the conversation]
Defeating 2 dragon blooded houses - heralds the end of the realm. Their power is forever crushed.

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So, uh, sorry for the wall of text, but you asked for context so I gave as much as I could without just copy-pasting my entire Skype log.

@Matsci feel free to thwap me if I took anything too far out of context here.

 

[Kaiya]

So, some time back I promised some more Abyssal Charms. Thing is, as I know not much at all about Exalted's numerical rulings and balancing, I've kind of run into a brick wall. Here's what I managed to get out anyway, but any kind of comment on this (and All-is-Weaponry Approach a few pages back too!), especially in the way of aformementioned numbers and balancing would be very much appreciated;

Click to shrink...

Okay.

Unraveling the Sorcerous Threads

Sorcery and Necromancy always have difficulties affecting each other, the Raw Force of Creation entirely incompatible with the Power of Death. But Necromancers are masters at unmaking, and Abyssal Necromancers especially so.

This Charm permanently upgrades the Abyssals Necromantic Countermagic and Banishment so that it affects Sorcery up to an equal Circle, instead of one below; Emerald with Iron, Sapphire with Onyx, Adamant with Obsidian.

Click to shrink...

Okay. Charms upgrading Sorcery/Necromancy...not sure I'd allow this. But I lack experience in this area, soooo I'll let someone else deal with this one.

House of Eternity

The Abyssals are the Exalted of the Underworld, regularly communing and dealing with Ghosts. But sometimes, their business may take them to Creation, where their businesspartners may not be able to follow them.

This Charm allows the Abyssal to act as a safe refuge for up to (Essence x 5) ghosts and similar immaterial beings potentially capable of possession, sheltering them from detection and hazards as an object posessed by relevant Arcanoi would. The Abyssal can freely communicate with his passengers (potentially allowing him to employ their expertise, if they are inclined to give it), may allow them access to his senses if he wants to, and can normally eject any ghosts he wants as a miscellaneous action.

Beware Nemissaries however, for a particularly shameless (and stupid, considering the nature of the landlord) Stringless Pupeteer may rudely exploit such an invitation to try and take control of the body.
A Nemissary inside the shelter of this Charm counts as possessing the Abyssal, and may use his Arcanoi accordingly. If the passenger could possess someone by himself, the cost to bar him from the ferryman's senses or evict him for one scene each rises to one Willpower, subject to modification by relevant Arcanoi.

The Abyssal may also forcefully invite unwilling guests. To do so, he has to first win a grappling contest or otherwise force the issue. Thereafter, the cost to prevent a ghost from leaving for a scene is always one willpower, though there are of course ways around that.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, I have no clue how to deal with this one. I don't like the Nemissary getting a shot at possession just by being present, though. Someone else can deal with this.

Soul-Crushing Grip

The Abyssal's grasp may shatter muscle, bone, life, and even the very soul.

This is a grappling charm - it is activated when the Abyssal initiates or sustains a grappling attack, and automatically ends when said grapple does. It has several effects;
First, it lets the Abyssal's grappling affect immaterial beings such as ghosts.
Second, the Abyssal's hands reach through armor, skin, and flesh, to tear at the target's very soul instead. His grappling inflicts Aggravated Damage.
Third, should the target die while this charm is active, his screaming soul is torn free of his body, and immediately becomes a ghost. Said ghost is caught in the Abyssal's grasp as if nothing had happened - both the grapple and this charm continue, seamlessly switching target to the new ghost instead of his now-discarded body which slumps to the ground a dead empty husk.

If the Abyssal also knows House of Eternity, he may also make grappling attacks on any ghostly resident of himself should he deem them getting too unruly, using nothing but his will (and this charm) alone. This application substitutes attributes like Mind-Hand Manipulation.

Click to shrink...

Grappling is hella broken in Exalted, and dealing agg damage with a grapple seems incredibly suspect. I don't think it should be able to do that. Also? This charm is four Charms in one. Spirit-Cutting, damage enhancer to deal Agg damage, force the target to be a ghost and bringing the ghost right there, and enhancing a different Charm. Too much for one Charm.

Chains like Ghostly Fetters

From the Abyssals Aura up to (Essence x 2) ghostly chains emerge, misty and fainly translucent, but as cold and solid as any steel. These act as extra limbs without fine manipulators, can stretch up to (Essence x 10) yards, and with the shackles at the end can make grappling attacks. They can always affect incorporeal beings. The chains may substitute attributes like Mind-Hand Manipulation does, if desired.

If the Abyssal also knows House of Eternity, he may freely attack and tie down any of his residents with these same chains. This does not count against the number of chains he can manifest externally, but does require a charm activation. It also always uses the Attribute Substitution.

Click to shrink...

This is very similiar to an Abyssal martial arts Charm, as I recall. It also gives bonuses beyond what that one. Do these have a damage rating, or do they use the Abyssal's basic damage for punches? Also, in general, stealing a Charm directly from another splat is iffy territory. Mind-Hand Manipulation is sort of SWLiHN's thing. I don't know if I like the idea of just refluffing it and giving it to Abyssals.

Screaming Mealstrom Maw

The Abyssal sucks in a great and long breath of air, and gravewind rushes into his mouth with with a shrieking noise, never to be seen again. Around him forms a Vortex (Essence x 5) yards across, dragging everyone within towards him by (Essence) yards every turn as a Knockback effect. Immaterial Beings such as Ghosts are particularly susceptible and double the Knockback.
If an Immaterial Being would normally touch the Abyssal while this Charm is active, it has to either evade, brace itself somehow, or otherwise defend. It rolls (Essence + appropriate attribute and ability), with the Abyssal's Essence as target. If it fails, it is dragged into his mouth by the howling air, likely howling alongside it, and ends up in the Abyssal's House of Eternity-provided space.

This Charm also rips free any fresh ghosts from corpses in the area of effect, should any have yet to rise.

Obviously, for the duration of this Charm the Abyssal may not use his mouth for anything else.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure what this Charm is meant to do. I'm also tired though, so it might not be your fault. Moving on.

Cold Soul Furnace

The Abyssal devours a ghost and burns it's Essence for sustenance. He may now regain motes by eating a ghost in the much same way that drinking someone's blood allows.

If the Abyssal also knows House of Eternity, he can also attempt to devour one of the ghosts within, provided he can stop the ghost from resisting and fleeing from his soul post-haste.

Click to shrink...

Seems fair enough. Honestly, a bit weak for a whole Charm. Otherwise fine.

Borrowed Memories

The Abyssal may fall back on the skills of any Ghosts he houses with House of Eternity. If the ghost in question spends a willpower, the Abyssal may for the rest of the scene use the Ghost's skills in place of his own. The ghost, obviously, has to cooperate or at least not resist for this to work.
Multiple ghosts may contribute to this charm at the same time, in that case simply take the highest value in each skill.

As long as this Charm is active, the Abyssal also counts as having a teacher in the skills in question.

Click to shrink...

Eeeeeeeh. You can just carry around ghostly allies and just have maximum skills in all areas. It interacts scarily with Black Candle Visiage, which can buff ghosts. This one is way too exploitable. Also, NPCs should not be the one doing the spending for the Exalt, just no.

Champion of the Dead

The Abyssal Exalted are, among other things, mediators between the World of the Living and the Underworld, and champions of the dead. How fitting then, that they should channel a vengeful ghost's righteous wrath while helping him get even.

This Charm allows ghosts housed in the House of Eternity to channel Virtues and Intimacies on behalf of the Abyssal; The ghosts expend the channel and willpower, the Abyssal gains the bonus. Obviously this is only applicable towards actions the ghost could use the channel on were he to do them himself.

Cooperation in this Charm cannot be forced; The ghost in question has to contribute actively, and the action has to resonate with his intimacies appropriately.

Click to shrink...

No. NPCs should not be spending things to give the Abyssal bonuses. It's basically infinity free Channels. Too much. Too much.

Gaze of the Silent Mien (also known as Overlord's Helmet Prana)​

For the duration of this Charm, the Abyssal loses the ability to speak. In exchange he can generally make himself understood with a mere stare, and gains (Essence) bonus dice to any intimidation attempts (and any other task that would be aided by silently staring at someone. But mostly Intimidation).

This Charm can be bought as permanent mutation. This Charm is Obvious.

Click to shrink...

This doesn't specify if it's dice from Charms or not. Either way, seems iffy. I'm not even sure if five capbreaking dice that can only be used to intimidate is really worth a Charm purchase. If they can do more than just that, its probably too overpowered. Someone else mind weighing in?

Corrosive Flames of Entropy
A fire that, instead of (only) burning physical matter, burns attributes, skills, memories, intimacies, sickness and poison, mutations, etc. I think the best option would be to refund XP so lost skills can be relearned (versus losing those skills for good which would propably be OP or lost skills simply regenerating over time which runs counter the spell's theme) to avoid massive imbalance, but fundamentally what was lost is lost for good, including memories and intimacies, though they may of course be replaced if possible. The latter would need some kind of protection though; Not until temporary will is depleted? Shaping?
Applications would involve supplementing training by freeing up XP, removing negative traits, hollowing a person out so you can remold the empty husk in your image, or simply a nasty area-denial-effect.

Click to shrink...

I...I have no idea what to do with this, sorry.

Wall of Fog
Mirroring 'Impenetrable Frost Barrier', this was originally intended as a shield against ranged attacks that works by corroding projectiles to dust and even weakening essence attacks.
Then, to make it more distinct, I wanted to add in that it also decays people and other objects, but got stuck on balancing. Because IFB is mobile, I ended up discovering that that would make this pretty much a creeping gas attack, and then I got to thinking that I could make lower-circle upgrades expand on causing damage, and then I discovered that what was originally a defensive/area-denial spell had become a grey-goo-nanite style WMD. And of course I still don't know how to balance that.
Help me sort this out, please?

Click to shrink...

Make it a higher circle of spell if you want a creeping gas AoE effect?

EDIT:

So. Update: Had a long talk with the ST tonight and tried hashing some things out. Didn't really get a solution, but did elucidate some of his feelings on the matter. Here are what I saw as the most relevant bits (with minor notes and edits bracketed):



At this point, there was a small digression with one of the other players about whether Tiger Warriors should even be extras anymore since they'd be amongst the best warriors in creation, alongside the Brides of Ahlat.

I took us back on topic eventually



So, uh, sorry for the wall of text, but you asked for context so I gave as much as I could without just copy-pasting my entire Skype log.

@Matsci feel free to thwap me if I took anything too far out of context here.

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...fuck optimizers? Man, fuck that guy. NPCs are deliberately lowballed to make things easier on people not good with mechanics. 5DV is less than my Familiar.

 

[Kaiya]

So. Update: Had a long talk with the ST tonight and tried hashing some things out. Didn't really get a solution, but did elucidate some of his feelings on the matter. Here are what I saw as the most relevant bits (with minor notes and edits bracketed):



At this point, there was a small digression with one of the other players about whether Tiger Warriors should even be extras anymore since they'd be amongst the best warriors in creation, alongside the Brides of Ahlat.

I took us back on topic eventually



So, uh, sorry for the wall of text, but you asked for context so I gave as much as I could without just copy-pasting my entire Skype log.

@Matsci feel free to thwap me if I took anything too far out of context here.

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Okay. Further thoughts: I think your ST should maybe just run Hunter. Exalted is an extremely high-power setting, and he doesn't seem like he's really equipped to deal with that. Five DV is not average. Five DV is shit. I think your ST also doesn't understand the difference between an optimizer and a munchkin. I can see why wanting story is important. But optimizers didn't ruin the game. A team of powerful dragon-blooded can absolutely ruin a young optimized Solar's day. And the setting of Exalted is extremely high-powered. If he doesn't like that, he really shouldn't be running Exalted. World of Darkness is a _much_ better setting for the power tier he wants.

 

[azoicennead]

So. Update: Had a long talk with the ST tonight and tried hashing some things out. Didn't really get a solution, but did elucidate some of his feelings on the matter. Here are what I saw as the most relevant bits (with minor notes and edits bracketed):

Not Tiger Warrior - any experience debt charm (of which there are many). It's fine to train fast - but there must be some point where the experience debt becomes too much - they make heroic mortals look like total crap and it's extremely unbelieveable (when given no limits). [Verisimilitude] is import - as much so as a good story. The two go hand in hand.

Ok - no experience debt limits. But that means the npc's will follow the lack of limits as well.

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Does... Does your group realize that TWTM has a built-in cap? And do they realize that heroic mortals get really nice things like resources to spend for dice, and stunts? Because I'd rather play a heroic mortal than a Tiger Warrior extra, because the latter can stunt, but a Tiger Warrior heroic mortal is even better, and totally a thing.

Also, they need a reality check about how to get a decent DV, and how high your attack pool can get, because DV 5 is mortal-level defenses (Melee 4, Dex 4, regular Target Shield, and you have DV 6), and getting a dice pool of 19 static dice (i.e. no active magic) is easy. A single charm (Panoptic Fusion Discipline) can bump that to 22 for the scene by giving you Aim dice.

Also, pulling off insane stunts is kind of what I expect from Solaroids. Obviously, my perception and your ST's have a vast gulf between them.

 

[SerGregness]

Does... Does your group realize that TWTM has a built-in cap? And do they realize that heroic mortals get really nice things like resources to spend for dice, and stunts? Because I'd rather play a heroic mortal than a Tiger Warrior extra, because the latter can stunt, but a Tiger Warrior heroic mortal is even better, and totally a thing.

Also, they need a reality check about how to get a decent DV, and how high your attack pool can get, because DV 5 is mortal-level defenses (Melee 4, Dex 4, regular Target Shield, and you have DV 6), and getting a dice pool of 19 static dice (i.e. no active magic) is easy. A single charm (Panoptic Fusion Discipline) can bump that to 22 for the scene by giving you Aim dice.

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I actually pursued that line for a bit (chat was kind of fast paced at this point so the conversation thread got a touch jumbled):

[me]:And not greatest Warriors... greatest army perhaps.
[me]: the two are not one and the same.
[another player]: With stats at 4 they're inidividually damn near the best
[ST]: Melee 4 = greatest warriors in creation
[ST]: that's better than the top 1% of mortals in the world
[me]: Greatest warriors would be the Exalted Host.
[me]: And they're still not as good as the battle-focused first circles.
[another player]: Elite Soldiers/Raiders for mortals have approx one ability at 4
[another player]: The rest are at three or lower
[me]: And tiger warriors are a notch above that, a notch below first circles
[another player]: Godbloods have two abilities at 4
[me]: who are in turn a notch below terrestrials.
[me]: Godbloods can use Essence.
[another player]: With multiple abilities at 4, these will be better than the best mortal warriors
[me]: That was the point?
[me]: and even still not better than the best
[me]: no specialties.
[me]: (until essence 4 anyway)
[me]: Like, I get that there won't be MANY better than 8 dice, but you said best.
[another player]: I think the point is that it doesn't thematically make sense for near-new Solars to roll up and stomp the forces of two great houses within a handful of months with their super army

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Basically, their issue seems to be with melee 4 dex 4 being considered 'baseline'.

Also, pulling off insane stunts is kind of what I expect from Solaroids. Obviously, my perception and your ST's have a vast gulf between them.

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Hence my 'Worthy of a Solar' quip from the last post.

 

[Kaiya]

Does... Does your group realize that TWTM has a built-in cap? And do they realize that heroic mortals get really nice things like resources to spend for dice, and stunts? Because I'd rather play a heroic mortal than a Tiger Warrior extra, because the latter can stunt, but a Tiger Warrior heroic mortal is even better, and totally a thing.

Also, they need a reality check about how to get a decent DV, and how high your attack pool can get, because DV 5 is mortal-level defenses (Melee 4, Dex 4, regular Target Shield, and you have DV 6), and getting a dice pool of 19 static dice (i.e. no active magic) is easy. A single charm (Panoptic Fusion Discipline) can bump that to 22 for the scene by giving you Aim dice.

Also, pulling off insane stunts is kind of what I expect from Solaroids. Obviously, my perception and your ST's have a vast gulf between them.

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My Sidereal, when starting out:

Martial Arts 5, Dexterity 5, Dodge 5, Specialty2, Starmetal Bracers to add 3dice to dodge pool calcs, Essence 3.

DDV: 5+5+3+3 = 16. DDV = 8.

Attack pool: 5+5+2+WeaponAcc2 = 14.

This is a moderately optimized character. As in...I built him so that he wouldn't be a cripple. 5/5/3 is the best a mortal warrior can get. A 15 attack pool is the attack pool of a maximally skilled mortal wielding an exceptionally accurate weapon. It's pretty goddamned trivial to get attack pools of 15.


EDIT:

I actually pursued that line for a bit (chat was kind of fast paced at this point so the conversation thread got a touch jumbled):



Basically, their issue seems to be with melee 4 dex 4 being considered 'baseline'.

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Melee4,Dex4 isn't baseline. For mortals. It's subpar for an Exalt, or a strong heroic mortal. Hell, my Dragon-Blooded, Tyler, isn't even combat focused, and he can toss around Acc26 attacks with a 2-die stunt and his Elemental Bolt Attack. I have to burn...I think seven motes on that?

 

[SerGregness]

My Sidereal, when starting out:

Martial Arts 5, Dexterity 5, Dodge 5, Specialty2, Starmetal Bracers to add 3dice to dodge pool calcs, Essence 3.

DDV: 5+5+3+3 = 16. DDV = 8.

Attack pool: 5+5+2+WeaponAcc2 = 14.

This is a moderately optimized character. As in...I built him so that he wouldn't be a cripple. 5/5/3 is the best a mortal warrior can get. A 15 attack pool is the attack pool of a maximally skilled mortal wielding an exceptionally accurate weapon. It's pretty goddamned trivial to get attack pools of 15.


EDIT:

Melee4,Dex4 isn't baseline. For mortals. It's subpar for an Exalt, or a strong heroic mortal. Hell, my Dragon-Blooded, Tyler, isn't even combat focused, and he can toss around Acc26 attacks with a 2-die stunt and his Elemental Bolt Attack. I have to burn...I think seven motes on that?

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I mean, yeah, but I actually kind of agree with my ST in as much as 5/5/2 seems weird to label 'not a cripple'. I admit I'm a little new to the system still (as I've said before, this game is the first Exalted game I've played), but that looks like you're pretty well past 'moderately optimized'. That it's easy to get to that point doesn't really make it not optimized does it? My gut instinct is that 'moderately optimized' is more usefully located around the 8-10 dice range? That's approximately 4/4/2 (before charms, naturally).

 

[Carrnage]

[another player]: I think the point is that it doesn't thematically make sense for near-new Solars to roll up and stomp the forces of two great houses within a handful of months with their super army

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Yes, it also wouldn't make sense mechanically considering dragon blooded are quite a bit stronger than Tiger warriors.

 

[azoicennead]

I actually pursued that line for a bit (chat was kind of fast paced at this point so the conversation thread got a touch jumbled):

Basically, their issue seems to be with melee 4 dex 4 being considered 'baseline'.

Hence my 'Worthy of a Solar' quip from the last post.

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It's the personal fucking army of one of the Celestial Host, of course it's powerful. That's the fuckin' point!
Also:

[ST]: Melee 4 = greatest warriors in creation

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Wrong. That's 5 in all combat stats, which is beyond the reach of TWTM (though that cuts out most of the work).

[another player]: Elite Soldiers/Raiders for mortals have approx one ability at 4
[another player]: The rest are at three or lower
[another player]: Godbloods have two abilities at 4

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Those are mortal-trained elites, not Solar-trained, and Godbloods are only slightly superior to Enlightened Mortals (and their main power is the fact that they can use MAGIC KUNG-FU; any analysis of Godbloods that ignores this is a shitty analysis).

I mean, yeah, but I actually kind of agree with my ST in as much as 5/5/2 shouldn't really be 'not a cripple'. I admit I'm a little new to the system still, but that looks like you're pretty well past 'moderately optimized'. That it's easy to get to that point doesn't really make it not optimized does it? My gut instinct is that 'moderately optimized' is more usefully located around the 8-10 dice range? That's approximately 4/4/2 (before charms, naturally).

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Moderate optimization for really important dice pools should be 10+. Generally, combat counts as an important dice pool, because if it's not high enough you die.
Stuff that's not vital to your character's continued existence being in the 8-10 range at chargen is fine. Excellencies can help make up any slack. That gets expensive with the major combat dice pools, though.

 

[Kaiya]

I mean, yeah, but I actually kind of agree with my ST in as much as 5/5/2 seems weird to label 'not a cripple'. I admit I'm a little new to the system still (as I've said before, this game is the first Exalted game I've played), but that looks like you're pretty well past 'moderately optimized'. That it's easy to get to that point doesn't really make it not optimized does it? My gut instinct is that 'moderately optimized' is more usefully located around the 8-10 dice range? That's approximately 4/4/2 (before charms, naturally).

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Alright, fair enough. That was probably more hyperbole than I intended. I admit, I would honestly consider 4/4/2 not particularly optimized, but I'm also really scared of how insanely lethal Exalted can be. So I tend to be a bit paranoid. ...admittedly, it's called 'paranoia combat' for a reason.
Still. The fact remains: Exalted is a high-powered setting. If he's setting Exalts to be equal to vampires, he's...really doing it wrong.

 

[SerGregness]

Yes, it also wouldn't make sense mechanically considering dragon blooded are quite a bit stronger than Tiger warriors.

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Well, I dunno I may have actually scared him a bit. With the setup he gave us, and the strategic situation as far as I'm aware, I actually think it's quite winnable for us.

See, in the backstory for this particular game, An'Teng rebels after the Empress leaves. House Ledaal and Peleps tagteamed to suppress the rebellion, and sent two full legions each. The fighting drove the 200,000 or so refugees south, and the Realm expected them all to starve to death and so didn't spend extra resources on them.

Enter our Circle.

The way I see it, we have two, maybe two and a half Solaroid crafters depending on how you count it, a Sorcerer, lots of Tiger Warriors, the strategic element of surprise, the ability to maybe play the two houses against each other, and perhaps the popular support of the people (one of An'Teng's princes and his animal mask general made it south with us).

On the other end, the Realm troops probably outnumber what we'll be able to field (I was assuming about 10-15% mobilization since we'll need all the logistical support too), their officer corps will be far stronger as a whole (even if I am most likely better than any given DB, there'll be how many amongst four legions?), and if they can drag out the fighting too long they'll get help from the Blessed Isle.

So, strategy problems are some of my favorite, and I looked at all that and decided it was winnable. My ST immediately became suspicious of h4x.

 

[Kaiya]

Well, I dunno I may have actually scared him a bit. With the setup he gave us, and the strategic situation as far as I'm aware, I actually think it's quite winnable for us.

See, in the backstory for this particular game, An'Teng rebels after the Empress leaves. House Ledaal and Peleps tagteamed to suppress the rebellion, and sent two full legions each. The fighting drove the 200,000 or so refugees south, and the Realm expected them all to starve to death and so didn't spend extra resources on them.

Enter our Circle.

The way I see it, we have two, maybe two and a half Solaroid crafters depending on how you count it, a Sorcerer, lots of Tiger Warriors, the strategic element of surprise, the ability to maybe play the two houses against each other, and perhaps the popular support of the people (one of An'Teng's princes and his animal mask general made it south with us).

On the other end, the Realm troops probably outnumber what we'll be able to field (I was assuming about 10-15% mobilization since we'll need all the logistical support too), their officer corps will be far stronger as a whole (even if I am most likely better than any given DB, there'll be how many amongst four legions?), and if they can drag out the fighting too long they'll get help from the Blessed Isle.

So, strategy problems are some of my favorite, and I looked at all that and decided it was winnable. My ST immediately became suspicious of h4x.

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...seriously, why's he playing Exalted if he doesn't want you...being Exalts? The Solar Exalted are the best at everything. They led the armies that overthrew the Primordials, the creators of the world. They are the best generals, best crafters, best sorcerers, best everything. If he doesn't want you doing that stuff, maybe he should try running something else. Or do a mortals game.

Solars being able to train amazing badass armies really fast isn't hax, or broken. It's the Solars being the Solar Exalted.

 

[SerGregness]

...seriously, why's he playing Exalted if he doesn't want you...being Exalts? The Solar Exalted are the best at everything. They led the armies that overthrew the Primordials, the creators of the world. They are the best generals, best crafters, best sorcerers, best everything. If he doesn't want you doing that stuff, maybe he should try running something else. Or do a mortals game.

Solars being able to train amazing badass armies really fast isn't hax, or broken. It's the Solars being the Solar Exalted.

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Quoth my ST (it really was a long conversation):
"But a lot of RP'ers laugh at Exalted, say its just a dice fap. Its got a rich world and it has a lot of room for theological and metaphysical discussions. I just feel the setting has been betrayed by its fan base, or at the least, the writers by the ones who make the charms...or something."

So, in short, he plays for the setting I guess.

 

[Kaiya]

Quoth my ST (it really was a long conversation):
"But a lot of RP'ers laugh at Exalted, say its just a dice fap. Its got a rich world and it has a lot of room for theological and metaphysical discussions. I just feel the setting has been betrayed by its fan base, or at the least, the writers by the ones who make the charms...or something."

Click to shrink...

...wow. Wow. The setting has been betrayed by...being what it is. Okay. Exalted has fuck-ups. Exalted has mechanical issues. High-Essence Charms were done incredibly poorly.

Exalted being a high-power setting is working as intended. Not 'betrayed.' Solars are larger than life epic heroes. This is their point. Solars are mighty. Solars are amazing. Argh

Okay. Too late for this. And the person who said that isn't here. So...whatever. Hope you guys have fun.

 

[SerGregness]

...wow. Wow. The setting has been betrayed by...being what it is. Okay. Exalted has fuck-ups. Exalted has mechanical issues. High-Essence Charms were done incredibly poorly.

Exalted being a high-power setting is working as intended. Not 'betrayed.' Solars are larger than life epic heroes. This is their point. Solars are mighty. Solars are amazing. Argh

Okay. Too late for this. And the person who said that isn't here. So...whatever. Hope you guys have fun.

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Yeah, sorry, I just find the outside perspective helpful.

 

[Kaiya]

Yeah, sorry, I just find the outside perspective helpful.

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You don't need to apologize. Your ST is missing the point of Exalted and horribly insulting something I dearly love for not being something it was never supposed to be. Also it's late and I'm taking things more personally than I should be. I am sorry if it seemed like I was getting angry at you.

 

[horngeek]

Yeah, I have to agree with Fenris on this. My own response would be "It seems like we have fundamentally different ideas of how Creation operates and what it's supposed to be. I'm not sure this'll work out, to be honest."

 

[sebsmith]

I should probably be sleeping instead of writing this, but meh.

[A bunch of the sample Solars, (Dace, Panther, Etc) and their DV's of ~5. I made a comment about them not being optimized]
Optimized...I said I wanted an unoptimized game. I straight said min/maxers could find the door. People starting the game with 15 acc. and 10 D.V. is total bs. I don't kill people for nothing - I just want the Exalted PC's to reflect as the same thing, in the same ball park, as the other Exalts. They are supposed to be equal.
Not saying that's the case here.
Just, fuck, 5 DV is the norm.

Optimized characters is why this game is broken under so many ST's. Why people say Dragon Bloods suck and are worthless.

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Oh god I'm having BESM d20 flashbacks.

Spoiler: GoO Manifesto

These rules are written on paper, not etched in stone tablets.Rules are suggested guidelines, not required edicts.If the rules don't say you can't do something, you can.There are no official answers, only official opinions.When dice conflict with the story, the story always wins.Min/Maxing and Munchkinism aren't problems with the game; they're problems with the player.The Game Master has full discretionary power over the game.The Game Master always works with, not against, the players.A game that is not fun is no longer a game - it's a chore.This book contains the answers to all things.When the above does not apply, make it up.

People bend and stretch the mechanics rather than playing towards the fluff.
Exalted was a WhiteWolf game. Storyteller system. Story is what its all about.
I don't know where so many got lost.

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No it isn't the Storyteller System, it's a different but similar system. The other game which runs on the same system is Nobilis, which is even more capable of absurd feats then Exalted.

I've seen a lot of games where Infernals become Devil Tigers and then become Immortal Primordial things in like 1 year. Its stupid Gurren Lagann'esk stuff. I'm telling a Conan/Romance of the Three Kingdoms game. It's deeply sunk into Sword and Sandals style of play, grity and mysterious. The game is more like World of Darkness. A vampire is stronger than a man, most see them as beneith notice. Yet, the vampire still hides and knows several could slay them and have killed their kind. Exalted are far above men, but still have so many of mens weaknesses. It's more Vampire level than Superhero level (bullets plinking off the chest - immune to all harm...as many play Exalted. There are no stories like that in cannon)

Turning farmers, people with ribs showing, feet broken and bleeding from a thosand mile march where half their number died...their spirits strained to the limit. Turning them into the greatest warriors in Creation in a couple months is...insane. Immaculate Monks train decades of their lives using very developed systems with an impressive support structure.

[My reaction to being told that trying to turn these people into the greatest army in creation was insane: "Worthy of a Solar ]

[another player chimed in here]
I think the point is that it doesn't thematically make sense for near-new Solars to roll up and stomp the forces of two great houses within a handful of months with their super army
If it was that easy, it'd have been done already

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It has been done, that's what the Bull of the North did. Also, one needs to remember that the Solars have only been back for the last five years, give them a little more time.

[GM again]
The satus quo is being upset. Big names are moving, refuges have hope, but even Jesus did not destroy Rome. Even god in the freaking Bible did not destroy Egypt. I mean there are limits.

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Did you know that the fact Jesus didn't destroy Rome is actually grounds to argue he couldn't have been the messiah? This argument seems to assume the conclusion.

PC's get none. [referring to XP debt]
Debt is stupid
Its a childish thing of wanting your cake now - it must be earned.

Pretty much everything in the book has been on the block for bs. BP's are one of the big ones. Causes 60+ expereince swings and locks people into one true builds.
That is why the ST must lead the group through all the bs that breaks the game.
Lend some realism to it all.

[At this point I took a page from the first round of responses and asked why we weren't playing a Terrestrial game or something]

Players have to check themselves or most of the charms can break the game, yes. I've seen plenty of games, at the solar level, run well. It just takes self policing.

I've never seen a game run well that allowed the PC's to face roll Creation. The Realm has a grip on all of Creation. They are, fluff wise, supposed to be able to deal with young Solars forever (up to several years old in the past). Lunars often get into the hundreds, they still swat them down without the Realm missing a beat, the world blinking.

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That was a much stronger realm facing far fewer Solars. Remember, they are also freaking out about what happened in Thorns.