This discussion started with Accelerator, who is himself. DayDreamer then took it in a different direction, saying that mortals should be able to be relevant on a smaller scale, against smaller enemies. Nobody cares about what Accelerator posted after you rebutted him.

And saying that mortals are incapable of dealing with Demons seems incredibly counter to any good worldbuilding for Exalted. If a sorcerer throws a Blood-Ape at Nexus or whatever, the mortal response shouldn't be 'pray for the gods, godblooded, or Exalt to save us,' and in the mean time die in droves. Mortals shouldn't be unable to deal with a god-blooded, or a guy with a lot of political power and some overpowered artifacts, or whatever.

And saying that mortals shouldn't be able to learn kung-fu and do awesome stuff with it goes against one of Exalted's primary genre inspirations; wuxia. (And where are the Exalted supposed to learn kung-fu if no mortals can learn it?)
I am not saying a group of trained guards in chain armor with spears and bows, led by a grizzled old dude who knows his shit, can't take down a blood ape. I'm not, per say, saying the greatest mortal swordsman in the world with no extra magic can't do it. I am saying that the group of guards will lose a few dudes, and the super badass swordsman is more likely than not to get torn limb from limb, though with great luck he might eke out a win. If you want to reliably fight bloodapes and win, you should probably be some kind of god-blooded with an artifact or bizarre mutant or, even strongerly, an actual Sorcerer with skin of bronze, wood dragon claws, and your own blood ape.

The dude with Dex5, Martial Arts 5, Snake Style +1, Willpower Seven is going to get mauled to death if he tries to fight a Teodozjia or a Dog of Unbroken Earth. No real contest, he just dies. Because the strongest non-magical dude is still non-magical. The guy who has actual magic pours and super-human health levels and soak beats the plucky hero who is merely peak human, because one is super-human, and one isn't. The super badass guy has setting avenues to become more than peak human, though! At which point he is now his own flavor of super-human, and his story is no longer "I was a mortal being mortal and making my way" but "In a world where being the best just wasn't enough when the other dude has fucking magic, I too learned fucking magic, and now I, too, am magical".

Human, in Exalted, is not this species full of supernal potential waiting to be tapped so you can have the world's strongest human wrestling demons and winning. It's a world where being just human means you're fucked when the demon comes knocking, though if you are literally the peak of humanity, you might just get a lucky blow in and save the day. Count on that every time, though, and your days are numbered, and the number ain't big.

like, seriously. Mortals can learn kung-fu. just...not magic kung-fu while still being able to say "I'm a pure baseline human in a world of supers." If you have magic kung-fu, you're a super.
 
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You may find it ridiculous, but it's definitely a theme they have. The Ex3 core is not subtle:
It's actually super interesting when it runs into stuff like Solar Athletics. Solar charms let them do human actions superhumanly well, this translates to self improvement as well. Solars can do their 30-day fitness challenge to permanently get better at lifting weights. They can't really have a charm to just magically increase their strength arbitrarily but they totally have magic charms to permanently increase their strength by doing pushups.
 
I don't know anything about Geralt. But I know that when people talk about playing a Daredevil-like character in Exalted, they usually totally want the flashy powers. Would kind of defeat the point to drop them.

As for Guts, the major stumbling block there is that he's one of the best fighters on the planet. If he's not Exalted, he's not that. And I think most people would rather keep him first-tier than use low-end estimates of Apostle strength to justify keeping him mortal.
Daredevil doesn't really have any flashy powers though? He has really good senses, nullifying any impairment from blindness and allowing him to do some neat tricks. Neat tricks like hearing people from far away, in different rooms, tracking through smell, reading through touch, and detecting lies through heartbeats (which has been fooled before). He's also good at fite, but in a way that a group of elite ninjas can threaten his life, and most Avengers could beat him like a rug.

Looking at the wiki page for Guts, he's very strong and tough, has a knack for surviving, and has some nifty gear. Also, a brand that allows him to see the spirit world. That's it. And while the Apostles are impressive in the lower-fantasy Berserk, they seem to be Second Circle Demons at most, more likely some sort of formerly human Akuma, in the context of Exalted. Still very powerful and dangerous, but 'kill a few hundred men in a single battle' dangerous, rather than 'throw down with a walking mountain' dangerous. In fact, killing a few hundred men in a single battle is explicitly an amazing feat when done by some Apostles.
I am not saying a group of trained guards in chain armor with spears and bows, led by a grizzled old dude who knows his shit, can't take down a blood ape. I'm not, per say, saying the greatest mortal swordsman in the world with no extra magic can't do it. I am saying that the group of guards will lose a few dudes, and the super badass swordsman is more likely than not to get torn limb from limb, though with great luck he might eke out a win. If you want to reliably fight bloodapes and win, you should probably be some kind of god-blooded with an artifact or bizarre mutant or, even strongerly, an actual Sorcerer with skin of bronze, wood dragon claws, and your own blood ape.

The dude with Dex5, Martial Arts 5, Snake Style +1, Willpower Seven is going to get mauled to death if he tries to fight a Teodozjia or a Dog of Unbroken Earth. No real contest, he just dies. Because the strongest non-magical dude is still non-magical. The guy who has actual magic pours and super-human health levels and soak beats the plucky hero who is merely peak human, because one is super-human, and one isn't. The super badass guy has setting avenues to become more than peak human, though! At which point he is now his own flavor of super-human, and his story is no longer "I was a mortal being mortal and making my way" but "In a world where being the best just wasn't enough when the other dude has fucking magic, I too learned fucking magic, and now I, too, am magical".

Human, in Exalted, is not this species full of supernal potential waiting to be tapped so you can have the world's strongest human wrestling demons and winning. It's a world where being just human means you're fucked when the demon comes knocking, though if you are literally the peak of humanity, you might just get a lucky blow in and save the day. Count on that every time, though, and your days are numbered, and the number ain't big.
What avenues to becoming magical are these? All I can think of is Sorcery, which is very much a long-shot, and Exigence, which is like exponentially more so. Maybe running into the Wyld, or dying and becoming a ghost, which are horrible, horrible ideas, and the thing that comes out isn't going to be the thing that went in.

Why should't an incredible mortal Martial Artist be able to turn their Martial Arts into magical effects? (Leaving aside how orientalist Exalted's Martial Arts is). And if Martial Arts aren't better than learning a normal Ability, why should there be Martial Artists in Creation at all. Why shouldn't someone be able to get a weird mutation that gives them supersenses through exposure to weird magic, or a couple cool magic items? Why should the only options a ST has for interesting opposition to Exalted be some variety of Spirit, Spirit-blooded, or Exalted? I thought one of the big things with 3e was to stop the obsessive categorization and allow weird things into the setting?

Finally, I'm a bit confused as to why you think that humans in Exalted can't get anything ever, when there's two editions where that's explicitly not the case and one edition that has 'stop obsessively categorizing things, almost anything is possible' as one of the big selling points.
 
Liiiittle bit late but if you want to be Literally Actually Batman, you can be basically anything because he's the goddamn Batman.
 
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Daredevil doesn't really have any flashy powers though? He has really good senses, nullifying any impairment from blindness and allowing him to do some neat tricks. Neat tricks like hearing people from far away, in different rooms, tracking through smell, reading through touch, and detecting lies through heartbeats (which has been fooled before). He's also good at fite, but in a way that a group of elite ninjas can threaten his life, and most Avengers could beat him like a rug.

Looking at the wiki page for Guts, he's very strong and tough, has a knack for surviving, and has some nifty gear. Also, a brand that allows him to see the spirit world. That's it. And while the Apostles are impressive in the lower-fantasy Berserk, they seem to be Second Circle Demons at most, more likely some sort of formerly human Akuma, in the context of Exalted. Still very powerful and dangerous, but 'kill a few hundred men in a single battle' dangerous, rather than 'throw down with a walking mountain' dangerous. In fact, killing a few hundred men in a single battle is explicitly an amazing feat when done by some Apostles.

What avenues to becoming magical are these? All I can think of is Sorcery, which is very much a long-shot, and Exigence, which is like exponentially more so. Maybe running into the Wyld, or dying and becoming a ghost, which are horrible, horrible ideas, and the thing that comes out isn't going to be the thing that went in.

Why should't an incredible mortal Martial Artist be able to turn their Martial Arts into magical effects? (Leaving aside how orientalist Exalted's Martial Arts is). And if Martial Arts aren't better than learning a normal Ability, why should there be Martial Artists in Creation at all. Why shouldn't someone be able to get a weird mutation that gives them supersenses through exposure to weird magic, or a couple cool magic items? Why should the only options a ST has for interesting opposition to Exalted be some variety of Spirit, Spirit-blooded, or Exalted? I thought one of the big things with 3e was to stop the obsessive categorization and allow weird things into the setting?

Finally, I'm a bit confused as to why you think that humans in Exalted can't get anything ever, when there's two editions where that's explicitly not the case and one edition that has 'stop obsessively categorizing things, almost anything is possible' as one of the big selling points.
are you...are you even listening. You can be something other than spirit blooded or Exalt. It's just...you'll, you know. Be a super. It doesn't matter what you become, be it preexisting category or unique wonder. You're still a super now. You're standing above and beyond humanity. You're not a mere mortal anymore. You don't get the narrative "I am a mere mortal who makes it work." You get the narrative "I found a superpower and am using it ect".

An incredible mortal martial artist who gets magical effects is no longer a pure human martial artist, by definition. They're some other thing, even if that thing is just "That one otherwise human dude who has 30 motes and Snake Style". Because magical kung-fu makes you a strong super. If you get some magical power, you're now magical. That is my point.

A baseline human who gains magic is no longer a baseline human, and does not get to go "I am the human hero who stands for all those who aren't supers." You're just another super.
 
In that case, what would be superman?
A sudden explosion as the ultimate idea of salvation meets the definite articulation of a lack of easy answers, and the incompatible genres self-annihilate before repelling away back to their respective fictional universes.

This is my way of saying that while you can technically make Clark Kent, the young scrappy socialist brawler trying to bring light to his wretched, would-be City of Tomorrow, Exalted is basically (in every sense of the word) Anathema to the fledgeling sun god from Smallville, and that you're not going to get them to play well in the same way you can Batman, if only with certain elements of his.
 
An incredible mortal martial artist who gets magical effects is no longer a pure human martial artist, by definition. They're some other thing, even if that thing is just "That one otherwise human dude who has 30 motes and Snake Style". Because magical kung-fu makes you a strong super. If you get some magical power, you're now magical. That is my point.
Ah, so you can't be a human with supernatual powers and cool martial arts, but you can be a supernatural human with supernatural powers and cool martial arts. Thanks for clearing that up. It is a bit weird that you consider someone with motes and martial arts charms to no longer be purely human though. So this entire argument is much ado about nothing; all the 'pro-human' side needs to do is declare that their mortal heroes are 'supernatural mortal heroes' and the argument is now a moot point?
 
Ah, so you can't be a human with supernatual powers and cool martial arts, but you can be a supernatural human with supernatural powers and cool martial arts. Thanks for clearing that up. It is a bit weird that you consider someone with motes and martial arts charms to no longer be purely human though. So this entire argument is much ado about nothing; all the 'pro-human' side needs to do is declare that their mortal heroes are 'supernatural mortal heroes' and the argument is now a moot point?
My argument is that the term "supernatural mortal hero" is fucking meaningless, because it applies literally the damn same to Solars and Dragonblooded. A Solar is a human with supernatural powers. Every Exalt is a human with supernatural powers. It's a meaningless category. Yes, you can get magic powers without Exalting. But it won't give you Batman's narrative of using pure human grit to keep up with Superman and the Flash, because you aren't using pure human grit. You're using magic powers.
 
My argument is that the term "supernatural mortal hero" is fucking meaningless, because it applies literally the damn same to Solars and Dragonblooded. A Solar is a human with supernatural powers. Every Exalt is a human with supernatural powers. It's a meaningless category. Yes, you can get magic powers without Exalting. But it won't give you Batman's narrative of using pure human grit to keep up with Superman and the Flash, because you aren't using pure human grit. You're using magic powers.
Fine, non-Exalt-non-Spiritblooded mortal hero. Is that specific enough that it doesn't make you crusade to defend the purity of Creation?

So Batman is a man who, through his incredible skill and thirst for revenge, has some weird stuff going on (insert argument on how to represent Batman). Guts is a guy with a brand that lets him see the immaterial, a couple of artifacts, and some good stats. Lelouch has high war and a weird supernatural power (insert argument on how to represent Geass). Sherlock Holmes has high Investigation (and possibly Socialize, I forget the rules). Daredevil's a mutant with Blindsight and some custom sense enhancement Mutations (I forget if there are any in canon). Witchers are humans that have been pumped full of alchemical augmentations, who have some neat gear.

Are we done with this argument?
 
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I think that certain mortals should get supernatural abilities (functionally merits/mutations) in certain dramatic ways - while still staying human. For example, a mortal master martial artist who is granted the ability to injure spirits by a wounded Martial Artist God who needs him to fill in for him at a Celestial Martial Arts Tournament. Or a Righteous Devil Stylist getting a 'Breathes Fire' merit by questing to the Elemental Pole Of Fire and stealing something suitably dramatic. Or even a shaman who manages to steal the eye of a raksha and replaces one of his own with it, letting him see through their illusions. Of course, these wouldn't be things you get in chargen, but instead would be the focus of entire stories. That mortal martial artist would have had to spend decades honing their craft and proving their might to even merit a glance from that god. The RIghteous Devil Stylist would be planning one hell of a heist on top of the difficulties of travelling to the Elemental Pole Of Fire. That shaman would be risking madness or worse from his deed. Things that, while not letting them stand next to Exalts in any way, let them rise above other humans.
 
Fine, non-Exalt-non-Spiritblooded mortal hero. Is that specific enough that it doesn't make you crusade to defend the purity of Creation?

So Batman is a man who, through his incredible skill and thirst for revenge, has some weird stuff going on (insert argument on how to represent Batman). Guts is a guy with a brand that lets him see the immaterial, a couple of artifacts, and some good stats. Lelouch has high war and a weird supernatural power (insert argument on how to represent Geass). Sherlock Holmes has high Investigation (and possibly Socialize, I forget the rules). Daredevil's a mutant with Blindsight and some custom sense enhancement Mutations (I forget if there are any in canon). Witchers are humans that have been pumped full of alchemical augmentations, who have some neat gear.

Are we done with this argument?
I still think all of that is dumb and wouldn't allow it in any of my games, and if it's brought up as a pitch to someone in the future I will definitely interject and go "No, all of those but Witchers are more properly Exalts", but sure, we're done.
 
I still think all of that is dumb and wouldn't allow it in any of my games, and if it's brought up as a pitch to someone in the future I will definitely interject and go "No, all of those but Witchers are more properly Exalts", but sure, we're done.
>These are all dumb.
>These are all Exalts
>Sure, discussion is over.

Nice last word there.
 
>These are all dumb.
>These are all Exalts
>Sure, discussion is over.

Nice last word there.
Oh, and your spiel about me being on a crusade and letting the discussion drop wasn't an attempt to get the last word in? This post I'm quoting isn't an attempt to get the last word in? No, I still don't agree with you, and I won't go "sure we're agreed" if we're not actually agreed. If you don't want to argue anymore, stop arguing, but I'm not gonna agree with you so you can retire, victorious.
 
Fine, non-Exalt-non-Spiritblooded mortal hero. Is that specific enough that it doesn't make you crusade to defend the purity of Creation?

So Batman is a man who, through his incredible skill and thirst for revenge, has some weird stuff going on (insert argument on how to represent Batman). Guts is a guy with a brand that lets him see the immaterial, a couple of artifacts, and some good stats. Lelouch has high war and a weird supernatural power (insert argument on how to represent Geass). Sherlock Holmes has high Investigation (and possibly Socialize, I forget the rules). Daredevil's a mutant with Blindsight and some custom sense enhancement Mutations (I forget if there are any in canon). Witchers are humans that have been pumped full of alchemical augmentations, who have some neat gear.

Are we done with this argument?

My dude the issue isn't their stated level of power or their origins, the issue is their role in the plot. Like, Bruce Lee in real life was a talented martial artist and actor who still said in interviews 'yeah, martial arts is cool and all, but for real, you'd still be better off with a gun.' Bruce Lee in the movies was a demigod who can take on fifty dudes without breaking a sweat, and routinely killed people by means of his bare hands.

The issue isn't that the narrative calls them ordinary humans, the issue is they're central to the plot and thus have an incredible amount of plot armor and narrative agency as a result. Batman is never just an ordinary human, because realistically an ordinary person has no business brawling with Superman in power armor or trying to fight Darkseid. He's hypercompetent in a way that even the best of humanity simply can't match, some of his plans are only plausible if he's psychic or else singularly beloved by God, and if all that fails then he still has his plot armor to see him through. Batman is absolutely unrealistic as a character, and that's fine because Batman is fun to watch.

By any realistic standard Guts is a goddamn freak. An ordinary human can't lift up that sword of his and use it effectively in a fight, there's just no precedent for it historically. And anyone who would theoretically be capable, would still be sane enough to just use something lighter yet still equally capable of chopping up fools. In the entirety of human history, prior to the days of gunpowder and automatic weaponry, the highest kill tally was allegedly by a viking axeman on Stamford Bridge killing forty people, who was only stopped when someone else managed to get under said bridge. And the truth of whether or not any of that actually happened is still uncertain.

But Guts killed over a hundred men, on an open field. And these weren't stupid men Guts was fighting, they were more than happy to gun him down by means of crossbows. He was shot at least twice by crossbow bolts during that fight but was barely impeded by it. This is flat out impossible IRL, but we buy into it because it's incredibly cool and it's not meant to be realistic, just badass.

These characters are able to do what they do solely by virtue of being protagonists, and because the narrative bends over backwards to accomodate them. Nobody we call human is capable of replicating what they do, in spite of them being considered ordinary humans as far as the setting is concerned. But they're the protagonists, so they get to do routinely shocking and over the top things.

It's just that Exalted ensures that the vast, vast majority of protagonists are, unsurprisingly, the Exalted :V
 
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No, because that's not what the decker problem is. The decker problem is when one party member acts on a level that other people cannot contribute to or take part in, and in this sense crafting xp exacerbates the problem by putting the process of assembling things front-and-centre as a recurring, ongoing element of the session. 2e crafting, for all that it was an absurdly time-consuming boondoggle, was actually better about this issue, because it let the crafter hole up in a tower for a month, thereby shunting them offscreen where their rolls weren't taking up everybody's time. It sucked for the crafter, and the system sabotaged itself by making it too easy to ignore the Exotic Reagent rules that it wanted to be an important way of forcing crafters out there into the world, but it did at least push the whole mess out of the way of everybody else.

That's why my preferred solution is to de-emphasise the Making A Thing part of crafting in favour of sourcing raw materials, contracting labour, setting up infrastructure, finding exotic reagents and so on, because that forces the crafter to spend most of their time on social influence, local politics and questing for the treasures of history, things that involve taking part in the story like everybody else.

To clarify, the Decker Problem can be described as an issue in roleplaying game session focus which results from these factors all being present:
1. A certain type of action is a significant force multiplier for a group;
2. To be relevant in this action, one must heavily and specifically invest in the necessary prerequisites to be relevant.
3. This action takes a significant amount of out-of-character time to plan and resolve.

It's called the Decker Problem because traditionally cyberpunk hackers had all of these problems. You absolutely needed to have a hacker to succeed in your runs. You needed to have heavy investment in hacking because cyberdecks and programs tended to either be expensive or require the skills to custom-make. And finally, decking was its own minigame that took up a ton of out-of-character time, to the point where if your decking challenges were significant enough, you might as well have run two sessions-one for the deckers and one for everyone else.

You can see what @Imrix means here-by adding crafting XP and all that other stuff, you've created the Decker Problem because now instead of merely having (1) and (2), you now have all three elements.
 
An attempt at clarity: I have no problem with there being a setting full of anomolous beings with strange powers, some of whom can threaten the Exalted, for there is more between Meru and Yu-Shan than is dreamt of in our philosophy.

The thing I have a problem with is, A, calling such anomalous beings mortals in the sense that Batman is ostensibly mortal in his setting because that's not how Creation works, and two, classifying such varies wonders and horrors as Empowered Mortals, like there's any similarity between Guts and Geralt that they should exist in the same classification. It's reductionist as hell, and it doesn't even separate them as a thing, because Exalts are, by definition, humans that got magical powers which enhance their basic skills and attributes in varied ways.

By all means, have Geralt as one of a dying breed of Sorcerously-bred mutants hunting monsters for coin, and have Guts with his horrifying blade that reaps armies hunting down the Abyssal who betrayed him and his friends to a Deathlord in exchange for Exaltation. But just, don't pretend they're somehow more human or more mortal than the Exalted, and don't lump them into the same category. It disservices everyone involved.
 
No. The game is "Exalted" not "Heroic Mortals: The Mortaling."
This shit needs to stop, right here. Not just you, but this entire line of argument.

That stale "WHAT'S THE NAME ON THE COVER, HUH" bon-mot has done more to damage the game than anything else in print, because it assumes that Exalts, by their own nature, are a topic in dire need of elaboration that the books have, until now, not done adequate justice towards. And that's patently not the case, in every way we have seen. From the broken system getting regularly patched with Charms under the mistaken impression "Combat is only for Exalts fighting Exalts anyway," to reams of material being rendered unplayable by thoroughly salting it with Essence 6+ shitheels of every stripe who have seemingly never done anything worthwhile with their time until PCs came along, I guess. ALL of it stems from that half-hearted "Gotcha!" convincing people that YEAH, that sure IS the name on the cover, now ain't it.

Here's some hard truths: The Exalted, as presented conceptually as "supernatural hyper-competent people," are not interesting enough to support the entire gameline across them as some kind of grandly universal selling point. Spin that in any theme or visual style you care too, an entire world of superpowerful goobers getting into fistfights until the sky caves in is still not enough Meaning to hang a hat on, and only serves to deflect away from the myriad places Exalted actually shines as a fantasy setting. "You can win/you can be powerful" is not, in of itself, that engaging a hook when used as a premise for Exalted rather than a descriptor of what Exalted entails. "Exalt" is not and has never been an actionable character type in any seriously meaningful way, its best used as a Context that states the place of the character within the world, and without that context you have fuck-all. People assuming that's all there is to it is the whole reason why so many homebrew attempts exist in other systems, the very idea "playing Exalted means the numbers are big and you Fight Good."

Do you even know why it says "Exalted" on the cover? Because Exalts are the narrative lens that players are meant to initially view Creation from, one where they are not subject to the worst of its trials and tragedies, and gives players a "looking down" vantage point to help spur simple changes in complicated circumstances, rather than needing to work from the ground up in unfamiliar territory. That's it, that's all its there for, "these are the guys you play First, to dip your toes into the place and get familiar with things." Can you keep playing Exalts despite that, even several kinds of them across a series of heavily detailed books? Sure as hell can, but they still exist alongside shit like gods, demons, beasts and behemoths intended to give these adventures more texture than just to fill time between exhausting and tiresome punch-downs with another asshole with dumb hair and a silly lightshow aura. Not some kind of vast overstatement of their mechanical and narrative superiority against all other potential options, or higher-editiorial mandate "everything must come back to the Exalted as the First, Best and Only, one way or another."

Because we already saw that shit in action, and it was the absolute nadir of 2e whenever the books decided that we hadn't heard enough about How Fucking Great the Exalted are. That was the entire reason we had Elders suddenly taking center-stage as though we were supposed to Care about their awful backstories and half-formed millenia-spanning schemes, why the "All Solar Charms" template from the Corebook got taken literally and the Deathlords simply became End Boss Mega-Abyssals to seem threatening, why Dragonblooded were presented as second-class bootlicks to The Better Ones, why every plot had to scale upwards into a world-ending catastrophe to be seen as a suitable challenge to "a half-dozen people who can do literally anything effortlessly," why Alchemicals had their fluff bent and twisted so they could be Real Exalted After All, why time and again we had to deal with the latest chapter of Desus Is An Irredeemable Monster getting paraded out instead of interesting setting hooks, why people made continually awful cold-reads of the setting trying to puzzle out who had The Splat Charms Which End Reality and why they haven't used them yet, and why an infinite number of potentially useful offhand details were explained away as the meddling of some random Exalt or another instead of standing by themselves as a Weird Thing Which Exists. I could seriously go On.

All because "BUT EXALTS THO" took precedence over everything else to the point that, yes, people quickly became sick of it. And for good fucking reason! By dint of being classes so archetypal in nature, No One playing Exalted truly gives a shit about any other Exalts mucking about but those in the game they are invested in. No one bought the book with the expectation of reading z-tier comic book plots with even less charismatic characters, they bought it to make their Own and surpass what little was there. And that... you brought most of it in with you. The toys didn't come with that sandbox, it just set up the boards holding it in.

Like most other old White Wolf joints and their similar love affairs with huffing their own farts, Exalted as a gameline has always been at its weakest when it tries to actually sell the Exalted as some kind of fundamental pillar of the setting, some kind of "you get the Big Dice Sloppy Protagonist Blowjob" UNSEEN MASTERSTROKE in RPG development without which there is apparently No Game, rather than billing Creation as a place where Exalts happen to be and therefore interact with a wider variety of supernatural creatures and themes. At the end-results of this is where you get things like Return of The Scarlet Empress, where everything is Exalts Fighting Exalts Scheming Against Exalts ad nauseam, and the Daystar writeup which existed to be as outlandish as it possibly could to appeal to "what do you give to the Exalt players who already have Seen/Done Everything?" Then they printed entire BOOKS on the misguided impression that it was the Setting trappings holding Exalted back after all, and that what people were really looking for all along was playing the same busted-ass 2e Charm system in a poorly-articulated WoD knockoff, or IN SPACE or some shit. Meanwhile, you can look over at the slow evolution of the nWoD books, where they had already Learned these lessons, and made a deliberate effort to cultivate something more tangible to its audience than "its Vampire Game, you play the vampires and everyone who matters is vampires."

No, I didn't mean the actual rules, I mean the fandom reaction.
And this, yet again, is the real root of the problem. Where you think the fandom informs the setting or something, and feel it necessary that the book must come down and Deny those Playing The Game Wrong, and if not that, it falls to you to forcefully wave them off with airs of non-canonicity and being unnecessarily abrasive as hell about it. Frankly, your impressions of the game seen from this thread are legitimately just as obnoxious and derived out of equally bad memes and fanon-as-fact as the ones from folks like Accelerator you take so such issue with in the first place. You've spent the past dozen pages of both threads here going around hitting people over the head with the new corebook while talking about shit which has never been true as though it were printed yesterday, and willfully ignore or deflect any information to the contrary simply on the basis nothing in-text has contradicted you yet and that somehow gives you justification to lord it over others that you have The True Vision.

You need to come off it already, because this song and dance is getting super tiresome.
 
Liiiittle bit late but if you want to be Literally Actually Batman, you can be basically anything because he's the goddamn Batman.
Pretty much. Batman has been in publication for over 75 years at this point; conceptually, he is super broad. I can make a recognisable Batman as an Alchemical, for star's sake.
 
Do you even know why it says "Exalted" on the cover? Because Exalts are the narrative lens that players are meant to initially view Creation from, one where they are not subject to the worst of its trials and tragedies, and gives players a "looking down" vantage point to help spur simple changes in complicated circumstances, rather than needing to work from the ground up in unfamiliar territory. That's it, that's all its there for, "these are the guys you play First, to dip your toes into the place and get familiar with things." Can you keep playing Exalts despite that, even several kinds of them across a series of heavily detailed books? Sure as hell can, but they still exist alongside shit like gods, demons, beasts and behemoths intended to give these adventures more texture than just to fill time between exhausting and tiresome punch-downs with another asshole with dumb hair and a silly lightshow aura. Not some kind of vast overstatement of their mechanical and narrative superiority against all other potential options, or higher-editiorial mandate "everything must come back to the Exalted as the First, Best and Only, one way or another."

Well, there is a lot here, and it often repeats itself, but...

What are you trying to argue? That mortal and raksha games are now a moral imperative that is now vital to the health of the line? I mean yes, a big part of it is a power fantasy, welcome to the game. Welcome to most rpgs ever, which by default assume you're at least uncommon or above average. What makes this game appealing, at least for me, isn't just that you're very powerful but that you can interact with supernatural concepts, deities, and metaphysics on an equal footing. The fact that you can dive into Hell, the Underworld, or the Wyld without instantly being fodder, or the fact that you can grapple with the aforementioned "gods, demons, beasts and behemoths" and not just survive but are expected to come out on top is absolutely central to the game outside of mortals only arcs which exist largely to make you appreciate the sheer power differentials involved. If you want a fantasy setting where you play ordinary people in a world where powerful entities lurk above you, largely untouchable, it's been done. It's Call of Cthulhu, and Forgotten Realms, and Warhammer Fantasy. If I wanted what you were selling for Exalted, I could just go for those games instead. Hell, I don't know why you don't just go for that, because your post reads like you're genuinely angry at the very premise of the game line.

I can at least agree that 2E went too far and the sheer power involved killed more plots than it started, but none of that was the fault of Exalts Being a Thing or the main focus of the game. I can also appreciate how 3E generally deemphasizes Essence 6+ as a design space and powerful super-elders, and tries to ensure that a single charm can't singlehandedly solve an entire plot, to alleviate at least some of the problems that arise due to sheer scale. But uh,

Where you think the fandom informs the setting or something, and feel it necessary that the book must come down and Deny those Playing The Game Wrong, and if not that, it falls to you to forcefully wave them off with airs of non-canonicity and being unnecessarily abrasive as hell about it.

Are you projecting deliberately, for irony's sake, or do you genuinely lack some serious self awareness here? :V

Right, I think we have officially reached the point where we all need to calm the fuck down.

I mean, if I'm being honest we passed that point roughly two thousand pages ago :drevil:
 
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