If it's so nightmarish then why did you play 2E, with all the stuff like Overdrive, speed modifying effects, paranoia combat, combo rules, wildly varying keywords, and god knows what else?
To be fair, Overdrive, and probably a number of other things you've got lumped in some of these other categories, were very late additions to 2E. I won't comment on whether they were good additions or not; all I'm saying is that anybody who didn't hunt down the Scroll of Errata and pour through it to rebuild the game from the ground up probably doesn't know about those things.

Honestly, if White Wolf/Onyx Path wanted to make some money on the old books and old work, they would be well-advised to get a small team whose sole job is to integrate Scroll of Errata with the original books, and release a 2E Revised, one book at a time, probably in chapter order of Scroll of Errata.


I have, actually, found that while paranoia combos are important to avoiding accidentally splattering PCs, the paranoia combos themselves are not problematic. One of the issues that is often brought up about 2E and paranoia combos is that, once the PCs have paranoia combos, they're impossible to hit without mote attrition to zero. Leaving aside the "motes are hit points" arguments (which have their merits and demerits), I disagree with the notion that having PCs who are nearly-impossible to damage (but who have to put some effort into maintaining that nigh-invincibility) is a problem for a high fantasy/adventure game.

It's a problem if the only reason the enemies are attacking the PCs is to kill them, and the PCs have nothing they want other than to survive the enemies' attacks. If both of these things are not true, then PCs who are conditionally invincible are not a problem for running a game.

The reason for this is that the challenge need not - in fact, in most exciting combats, game or narrated in fiction, should not - stem from the risk of death. The risk of death is a false tension in most games and stories, these days. Audiences are conditioned to expect the important heroes to survive, and players know that the GM is actually on their side when it comes to not wanting to kill off PCs (in most games). Especially games like Exalted, where "the Story" is so crucial and PCs are meant to be integral to it.

Stakes are what make tension, and what make challenge. But stakes have to be believable. That is, the audience/players have to believe that they could LOSE the stakes. For that to happen, they have to believe that the GM will pull the trigger on it, that he's not worried about the game ending if things go wrong for the PCs in this encounter. Rarely is putting the PCs' lives on the line believable in this sense.

Instead, the stakes of the fight need to be something that the game could believably continue in interesting ways, regardless of whether the PCs win or lose. This doesn't mean threat of death can't be present, but it can't be the main source of tension. It's an obstacle, something to protect against and strain resources (like time taken to keep defenses up) rather than something that is actually expected to come to pass.

Examples of such believable stakes include:

  • macguffin items that the PCs are trying to acquire/keep out of the hands of the enemies;
  • escort missions where the escortee is the target of kidnapping or assassination and does not have the PCs' invulnerabilities;
  • caravan guard duty where the attackers want to steal stuff and don't mind some light murder in the process while the PCs want to protect the people, beasts of burden, and cargo;
  • caravan raiding where the PCs want to steal stuff (whether specific macguffins or just loot in general or particular supplies - e.g. beasts of burden and wagons - for their own purposes);
  • interrupting a ritual or other event before it can be completed (whether the PCs are protecting/enacting the event or are the ones seeking to disrupt it)
  • any sort of race against time or other groups to a goal, where the fight is slowing them down or diverting their path
    • e.g. the combatants are seeking to close off a pass through some cliffs or collapse a bridge and the PCs are trying to cross or stop them before they can do it;
  • preventing a thief from getting away with his goods;
    • this one's an example where killing is one way to achieve it, but the thief being untouchable is just one more complication, as he has to stop and rest sometime, so not losing him in the pursuit is a possibility;
  • escaping pursuit.

This is hardly an exhaustive list. But it gives some examples.

In each of these scenarios, the enemies being invincible, or the PCs being invincible, does not necessarily make the encounter "too easy." The stakes are still there.

I ran an encounter with a single Abyssal in the Underworld. He'd stolen a hoard of stuff from a Scavenger Lord and used a ritual murder of more than two dozen male prostitutes whose ghosts he recruited as minions to slip the whole four-wagon caravan he'd assembled into the Underworld via a created Shadowland.

The PCs caught up with him. He had the Abyssal perfect dodge, and used it liberally. He harried them a lot, but they outnumbered him and were able to overpower his ghostly minions (who were not exactly combatants in the first place). He kept trying to take things back by various tricks, but he just couldn't overcome their numbers and ability to physically take the wagons where they wanted them to go.

This didn't stop him from so frustrating the PCs that they STILL speak of his name with venom, but the truth is that they won the encounter with him handily. He got away with nothing, and they managed to return the hoard and get a reward and yadda yadda victory for the heroes.

But the encounters were tense in part because they couldn't actually hurt him, and he could not really hurt them. The stakes were those wagons of loot and the ghosts. But the obstacles he erected and the ways he harassed them to try to get even one wagon back were irritating and potentially efficacious if the PCs didn't successfully oppose him. (At one point, he tried to open a path into the Labyrinth right beneath their feet, since one step in makes going back out by the route he opened impossible. They managed to stop in time.)

But the point is, there was never real threat that they would die in the fight, nor really that they could kill him. But the stakes were tense, and the encounter memorable, despite this.

Exalted should always be about such encounters, even when PCs could die, because Exalted should be about stakes and consequences and how PCs' actions shape and pursue goals, not about "will they PCs live?"
 
Most Solar abilities have two or three dice tricks, melee has four, And Then There's Craft... for now.
I maintain that Craft is mostly bad because they didn't explain what they were actually going for with the whole subsystem not because of the charms. Craft's sxp/gxp/wxp and slots is meant to model muse and inspiration. Your characters doesn't just turn into a printer who shits out N/A wonders once every few months, instead they work on a series of projects as their muse allows them. They don't always have enough creative juices flowing to make the custom Ten Thousand Year Daiklave with all the bells and whistles and need to work on some other projects to find inspiration. And if they had actually explained that in even the slightest way when they were writing craft I'd be much happier with the ability.

None of this actually makes a good argument for the risk of death going away when it would otherwise be quite meaningful. Like when your Exalted are going up against some bandit schmucks then yeah you shouldn't pretend they're in great danger but when they're dueling the circle of dark Abyssal rider who've been hounding them all across the scavenger lands with nightmares and dark visions promising their demise their should be some damn tension.
 
I maintain that Craft is mostly bad because they didn't explain what they were actually going for with the whole subsystem not because of the charms. Craft's sxp/gxp/wxp and slots is meant to model muse and inspiration. Your characters doesn't just turn into a printer who shits out N/A wonders once every few months, instead they work on a series of projects as their muse allows them. They don't always have enough creative juices flowing to make the custom Ten Thousand Year Daiklave with all the bells and whistles and need to work on some other projects to find inspiration. And if they had actually explained that in even the slightest way when they were writing craft I'd be much happier with the ability.
Craft is bad from the word 'go', because it's doubling down on the Decker Problem by intensively mechanising the process of Making A Thing that other players can't be involved in. It might be a fun system to engage in for some people who buy into its premise, but from a table perspective, it's fractally bad.
 
Craft is bad from the word 'go', because it's doubling down on the Decker Problem by intensively mechanising the process of Making A Thing that other players can't be involved in. It might be a fun system to engage in for some people who buy into its premise, but from a table perspective, it's fractally bad.
You could probably diminish this problem by having your group be able to chip in in the Crafting subsystem even without actual Crafting charms, from a classic "We need to fetch The Thing(s) I need" mini-adventure to more involved methods, up and including building a proper infrastructure for crafting. It works decently even for solo (player-to-ST) play!
 
Craft is bad from the word 'go', because it's doubling down on the Decker Problem by intensively mechanising the process of Making A Thing that other players can't be involved in. It might be a fun system to engage in for some people who buy into its premise, but from a table perspective, it's fractally bad.
Yeah pretty much. Craft has always had that problem but it does feel like it got worse. Craft basically tells you it's the downtime ability which produces x artifacts in y time. Outside narrative bullshitting like "I built this artifact out of the scraps of my other projects" and "Actually a Doombot Prana" they don't have much role in uptime action. The Solar crafter can't work the miraculous power of his essence to draw a sword of ice from the water he's fighting in or turn the flames into his crown. There's none of that spontaneous miraculous crafting that could be used dramatically in a way that would involve other players. The Twlight Seer-Sage can't crown the Eclipse God-Emperor with a crown he draws from wind and light to awe the court of the kingdom they're taking over.
 
None of this actually makes a good argument for the risk of death going away when it would otherwise be quite meaningful. Like when your Exalted are going up against some bandit schmucks then yeah you shouldn't pretend they're in great danger but when they're dueling the circle of dark Abyssal rider who've been hounding them all across the scavenger lands with nightmares and dark visions promising their demise their should be some damn tension.

To be honest, I disagree.

"I, The Great Evil One, am going to KILL you, you miserable meddling whelp!" is never actually tense. Nobody buys it as a real threat on this side of the fourth wall.

Skeletor is never going to kill He-Man. Vlad Plasmius is never going to kill Danny Phantom. Jade Chan is never going to die to the villain she's stumbled into the grasp of. James Bond is always going to escape when Goldfinger tells him, "I expect you to die." Batman is always going to break out of the death trap at the start of the next episode.

The tension from the Abyssal hounding their path won't come from the threat of their demise. Not in any one combat. Not, really, at all, unless you're at the climax of a game and it's likely to end soon, anyway, or you're running a campaign that is rather revolving-door on PC death/creation. (Which leads to its own problems of diminishing tension; death becomes less of a big deal as investment in the characters dwindles.)

The threat of death can be a factor, but it won't be the primary source of tension. It can create a situation where the PCs have to keep taking action to prevent it, and the opportunity costs of those preventions are such that the PCs can't make progress in another way, or the real source of tension is put at greater and greater risk.

But, to play your game, here, if the Abyssal is harrying them that long, you start to enter different narrative territory, and ability to engage honestly little-used portions of the mechanics: the Flaws of Invulnerability. Forcing them, in the nightmares and in the choices they must make while being pursued, to confront situations contrived by this Abyssal specifically to force one or more of them per encounter into a situation where his Flaw kicks in and he can't be invincible is a great way to introduce that tension. Mainly because it's suddenly a risk that wasn't present before.

Done rarely enough, but with the willingness to pull that trigger in special circumstances, death can be a threat that brings increased tension. And Exalted 2E, for all its flaws, does support that. But it takes serious work.

But still, under all but the most unusual circumstances, threat of death will never be a real source of tension in most RPGs, especially not Exalted ones. So seriously thinking about your stakes and how to make them relevant is the key to good, tense encounters.
 
To be honest, I disagree.

"I, The Great Evil One, am going to KILL you, you miserable meddling whelp!" is never actually tense. Nobody buys it as a real threat on this side of the fourth wall.

Skeletor is never going to kill He-Man. Vlad Plasmius is never going to kill Danny Phantom. Jade Chan is never going to die to the villain she's stumbled into the grasp of. James Bond is always going to escape when Goldfinger tells him, "I expect you to die." Batman is always going to break out of the death trap at the start of the next episode.

The tension from the Abyssal hounding their path won't come from the threat of their demise. Not in any one combat. Not, really, at all, unless you're at the climax of a game and it's likely to end soon, anyway, or you're running a campaign that is rather revolving-door on PC death/creation. (Which leads to its own problems of diminishing tension; death becomes less of a big deal as investment in the characters dwindles.)

The threat of death can be a factor, but it won't be the primary source of tension. It can create a situation where the PCs have to keep taking action to prevent it, and the opportunity costs of those preventions are such that the PCs can't make progress in another way, or the real source of tension is put at greater and greater risk.

But, to play your game, here, if the Abyssal is harrying them that long, you start to enter different narrative territory, and ability to engage honestly little-used portions of the mechanics: the Flaws of Invulnerability. Forcing them, in the nightmares and in the choices they must make while being pursued, to confront situations contrived by this Abyssal specifically to force one or more of them per encounter into a situation where his Flaw kicks in and he can't be invincible is a great way to introduce that tension. Mainly because it's suddenly a risk that wasn't present before.

Done rarely enough, but with the willingness to pull that trigger in special circumstances, death can be a threat that brings increased tension. And Exalted 2E, for all its flaws, does support that. But it takes serious work.

But still, under all but the most unusual circumstances, threat of death will never be a real source of tension in most RPGs, especially not Exalted ones. So seriously thinking about your stakes and how to make them relevant is the key to good, tense encounters.
Or the storyteller could allow for player death. Like as a dm, my policy is always to do this. I dont go out of my way to kill the players but I don't coddle them either.
 
Or the storyteller could allow for player death. Like as a dm, my policy is always to do this. I dont go out of my way to kill the players but I don't coddle them either.
Exactly, you don't kill them off over nothing or without a chance to fight back but you don't entirely put that tool away. Death is drama and reincarnation does fun things with it.
 
Exactly, you don't kill them off over nothing or without a chance to fight back but you don't entirely put that tool away. Death is drama and reincarnation does fun things with it.
Or just if they lose a fight. Like a telegraph the difficulty of encounters but if they fight an opponent who's to strong or the dice go poorly they can die. Losing doesn't always mean death because that's not always what the fight is for, but PCs die sometimes. Even if it isn't neccesarily when it would be "appropriate", that's part of the fun of emergent narratives
 
You could probably diminish this problem by having your group be able to chip in in the Crafting subsystem even without actual Crafting charms, from a classic "We need to fetch The Thing(s) I need" mini-adventure to more involved methods, up and including building a proper infrastructure for crafting. It works decently even for solo (player-to-ST) play!
Yeah pretty much. Craft has always had that problem but it does feel like it got worse. Craft basically tells you it's the downtime ability which produces x artifacts in y time. Outside narrative bullshitting like "I built this artifact out of the scraps of my other projects" and "Actually a Doombot Prana" they don't have much role in uptime action. The Solar crafter can't work the miraculous power of his essence to draw a sword of ice from the water he's fighting in or turn the flames into his crown. There's none of that spontaneous miraculous crafting that could be used dramatically in a way that would involve other players. The Twlight Seer-Sage can't crown the Eclipse God-Emperor with a crown he draws from wind and light to awe the court of the kingdom they're taking over.
My personal solution is to reference Girl Genius and de-emphasise the crafting part of Craft a whole lot. You want to be a Crafter? Cool. You'll spend most of your time questing for exotic reagents, talking to community figures to acquire raw materials and skilled labour, or noble patrons to get commissions. Stuff that you can do with the group. Then abstract the act of actually Making A Thing into a one-roll downtime action, maybe add some Charmtech for doing some macguyvering for in-the-moment crafting.

Girl Genius is actually pretty solid inspiration on this score, to be honest. The aesthetic is all wrong, naturally, but it hits the right story beats of high drama and intrigue driven by people possessed of exaggerated passions, who are at once blessed and cursed with enormous personal power and influence in a world bursting with both ruin and wonder. And it's interesting that, despite taking those beats in a direction that's much more focused on Craft than Exalted is, Girl Genius rarely if ever puts much focus on the act of crafting. I've linked to the Coffee Machine skit before, but that's not an outlier; consider also the example of Gil's flying machine, or Agatha's upgrades to the lightning rod. Girl Genius doesn't waste time on the minutiae of how sparktech is assembled, but uses the act of Making A Thing as set dressing, or as an aide to illustrating something about the characters or the world.

Gil's flying machine is used primarily to show off how Sparks can get so caught up in their creative fugues that even imminent death won't pull them out of it, to hint, both to the reader and to Gil, at the strength of Agatha's Spark in particular, that she can take one glance at the pet project of the heir to an empire that dominates the continent and instantly devise a radical overhaul for it, and to lead in to the revelation of Castle Wulfenbach. Agatha upgrading the lightning rod is a smorgasboard of characters bouncing off each other in the thrilling science heroics of the genre, while establishing Agatha firmly as in charge of the town as a Spark should be. The actual crafting is generally no more than a footnote, assuming it happens on-panel at all, and that's about the dynamic I think works best for an RPG.
 
I mean, the entire craft xp system is intended to solve the decker problem for crafters. You can't just hole up in your tower for a month rolling a bazzillion dice and coming back out with a sweet sword without first acting on-screen, using your craft ability to do neat little things, quickly solve problems for your group and so on. You can debate how effective it actually is at that because with enough craft xp generation a Solar can skip that system, but the attempt is there.
 
My personal solution is to reference Girl Genius and de-emphasise the crafting part of Craft a whole lot. You want to be a Crafter? Cool. You'll spend most of your time questing for exotic reagents, talking to community figures to acquire raw materials and skilled labour, or noble patrons to get commissions. Stuff that you can do with the group. Then abstract the act of actually Making A Thing into a one-roll downtime action, maybe add some Charmtech for doing some macguyvering for in-the-moment crafting.
Thinking about this, you could have a part of the Craft charmtree that focuses on actual crafting and has the usual Charms like "Now you can craft Artifacts", "You can craft faster/cheaper". Make it small and make sure it wokrs only during downtime/when your character is not in the spotlight. The second part of the charmtree can be about essentially McGyvering and acting on Artifacts or other complex systems. You can have your Charms like "You can craft simple mechanisms/explosives/poisons on the fly", "know how to start this machine/activate this Artifact". Actions connected to crafting that can be used in many situations.
 
I mean, the entire craft xp system is intended to solve the decker problem for crafters. You can't just hole up in your tower for a month rolling a bazzillion dice and coming back out with a sweet sword without first acting on-screen, using your craft ability to do neat little things, quickly solve problems for your group and so on. You can debate how effective it actually is at that because with enough craft xp generation a Solar can skip that system, but the attempt is there.
No, because that's not what the decker problem is. The decker problem is when one party member acts on a level that other people cannot contribute to or take part in, and in this sense crafting xp exacerbates the problem by putting the process of assembling things front-and-centre as a recurring, ongoing element of the session. 2e crafting, for all that it was an absurdly time-consuming boondoggle, was actually better about this issue, because it let the crafter hole up in a tower for a month, thereby shunting them offscreen where their rolls weren't taking up everybody's time. It sucked for the crafter, and the system sabotaged itself by making it too easy to ignore the Exotic Reagent rules that it wanted to be an important way of forcing crafters out there into the world, but it did at least push the whole mess out of the way of everybody else.

That's why my preferred solution is to de-emphasise the Making A Thing part of crafting in favour of sourcing raw materials, contracting labour, setting up infrastructure, finding exotic reagents and so on, because that forces the crafter to spend most of their time on social influence, local politics and questing for the treasures of history, things that involve taking part in the story like everybody else.
 
Last edited:
Or the storyteller could allow for player death. Like as a dm, my policy is always to do this. I dont go out of my way to kill the players but I don't coddle them either.

Exactly, you don't kill them off over nothing or without a chance to fight back but you don't entirely put that tool away. Death is drama and reincarnation does fun things with it.

You can do that, certainly. This tends to lead to very particular styles of play, in practice:

1) Old, old-style D&D, with combat-as-war and very careful, cautious advance towards goals, with characters having some level of investment, but not a tremendous amount, since they could die at any time; or
2) A very death-is-cheap attitude wherein PCs are just pawns to play the game with, and the investment in the character is minimal as the fun is just seeing what crazy stunts can be pulled off before they die.

Even if you're willing to kill off PCs, as a GM, but aren't actively trying to do so, the only way to avoid those two situations is for the times when death is reasonably on the line to be rare. It takes time, and a certain amount of trust that it won't be squandered, to invest in a character and their ongoing part in a story.

If death remains uncommon, then it isn't a common source of tension, and you need to have other sources, other stakes in play that are not "Oh my gosh, the character could die if you don't win!"

Having practical invulnerability under most circumstances doesn't change this; it enhances it, by allowing the game to go into Big Darned Hero style grandiosity (which (1) out-and-out crushes as a playstyle) without having to pull punches or risk (2)'s "death is cheap, so are PCs" mindset.

So it isn't a problem if you're honest-to-goodness running a game where death is a possibility should it come up, but you're not relying on an illusion of danger-of-death to create all your tension. It isn't even a problem for the times when you seriously want death on the line and are willing to pull the trigger: you just have to have the situation be such that it really IS on the line.

And, again, even then? You never need the PCs to be the ones threatened with death. Yes, it CAN be a good, dramatic thing. But it is never essential. What you need is stakes where the loss has the same sort of emotional impact, and for that, beloved NPCs work just as well, if not better.

But in truth, paranoia combos are good, but not perfect. They can fail. Resources can run out. Flaws of Invulnerability can come up (however rarely). Characters can suffer fates that, while not technically death, are game-removing.

But the crux here is that, unless you're running game with highly cautious PCs who take very few risks, or you're running a game with players who are not terribly invested in their characters, even if you don't pull punches and deliberately prevent character death, the threat of death is rarely really the source of tension.
 
You can do that, certainly. This tends to lead to very particular styles of play, in practice:

1) Old, old-style D&D, with combat-as-war and very careful, cautious advance towards goals, with characters having some level of investment, but not a tremendous amount, since they could die at any time; or
2) A very death-is-cheap attitude wherein PCs are just pawns to play the game with, and the investment in the character is minimal as the fun is just seeing what crazy stunts can be pulled off before they die.

Even if you're willing to kill off PCs, as a GM, but aren't actively trying to do so, the only way to avoid those two situations is for the times when death is reasonably on the line to be rare. It takes time, and a certain amount of trust that it won't be squandered, to invest in a character and their ongoing part in a story.

If death remains uncommon, then it isn't a common source of tension, and you need to have other sources, other stakes in play that are not "Oh my gosh, the character could die if you don't win!"

Having practical invulnerability under most circumstances doesn't change this; it enhances it, by allowing the game to go into Big Darned Hero style grandiosity (which (1) out-and-out crushes as a playstyle) without having to pull punches or risk (2)'s "death is cheap, so are PCs" mindset.

So it isn't a problem if you're honest-to-goodness running a game where death is a possibility should it come up, but you're not relying on an illusion of danger-of-death to create all your tension. It isn't even a problem for the times when you seriously want death on the line and are willing to pull the trigger: you just have to have the situation be such that it really IS on the line.

And, again, even then? You never need the PCs to be the ones threatened with death. Yes, it CAN be a good, dramatic thing. But it is never essential. What you need is stakes where the loss has the same sort of emotional impact, and for that, beloved NPCs work just as well, if not better.

But in truth, paranoia combos are good, but not perfect. They can fail. Resources can run out. Flaws of Invulnerability can come up (however rarely). Characters can suffer fates that, while not technically death, are game-removing.

But the crux here is that, unless you're running game with highly cautious PCs who take very few risks, or you're running a game with players who are not terribly invested in their characters, even if you don't pull punches and deliberately prevent character death, the threat of death is rarely really the source of tension.
or people invested in their characters who don't want to die but the base premise is "yes death is a thing and I won't cheat to save you"...? Your experience seems very odd to me, more D&D than Exalted, where I've always encountered situations where I could seriously die.
 
What did the Solar have? The guideline for holding your own against supernatural threats is pretty much "Any five combat charms". You can definitely build a Solar who can't one v one a Dragonblooded, but they tend to either be really unlucky or lack combat charms and Excellency.

Dex 5, Melee 5, Thrown 5, Blinding Battle Feint, Dipping Swallow Defense, Precision of the Striking Raptor, Steel Storm Descending, Joint-Wounding Attack. Plus some Stealth and Sorcery with combat applications.

Turns out nothing can save you from the dice.

My personal solution is to reference Girl Genius and de-emphasise the crafting part of Craft a whole lot. You want to be a Crafter? Cool. You'll spend most of your time questing for exotic reagents, talking to community figures to acquire raw materials and skilled labour, or noble patrons to get commissions. Stuff that you can do with the group. Then abstract the act of actually Making A Thing into a one-roll downtime action, maybe add some Charmtech for doing some macguyvering for in-the-moment crafting.

I agree that GIrl Genius is great inspiration, but I don't like the idea of making setting up the Craft roll into such a big deal. Sure, it helps with the decker problem, but as 2e showed it can easily devolve into tedious busywork. Exotic ingredients were intended to do exactly that, and they weren't a great success.

Better, I think, to emphasize non-Artifact Crafting as much as possible. Most of the crazy machines they build in Girl Genius aren't even Artifacts in an Exalted sense; Artifacts last. Agatha's deathray-of-the-day is better represented as something else, more powerful than mundane Craft but more temporary than Artifacts. Probably the product of deathray-oriented Solar Charms.

Thinking about this, you could have a part of the Craft charmtree that focuses on actual crafting and has the usual Charms like "Now you can craft Artifacts", "You can craft faster/cheaper". Make it small and make sure it wokrs only during downtime/when your character is not in the spotlight. The second part of the charmtree can be about essentially McGyvering and acting on Artifacts or other complex systems. You can have your Charms like "You can craft simple mechanisms/explosives/poisons on the fly", "know how to start this machine/activate this Artifact". Actions connected to crafting that can be used in many situations.

Yeah, that's what I went with in my rewrite.

"You can animate the statues you create with a touch, sending them out to fight for you" is a lot more game-able than "if the non-Charm dice added by this Charm's prerequisite Charm produce at least three successes, add another three non-Charm dice" or "if you're working on ten separate Artifacts/Manses of the same rating, you may complete one instantly".

(It also makes for a much better Dual Magus Prana prerequisite. I like to think that Charm works a lot better in my Charmset than in the canonical one.)
 
or people invested in their characters who don't want to die but the base premise is "yes death is a thing and I won't cheat to save you"...? Your experience seems very odd to me, more D&D than Exalted, where I've always encountered situations where I could seriously die.
Have you, though?

I'm not trying to be smug or confrontational, here, but I am challenging you to look back at these situations where your character(s) "could have died." Perhaps this is an unfair question, but are you sure your GM wasn't just very good at creating the illusion of potential death?

Because if not, and yet your PC came through sufficiently often - or rather died sufficiently rarely - that you were able to maintain investment in your PCs without becoming jaded, then you've gotten amazingly lucky.

It is more probable that your PCs lived either due to the danger of death being less than you believed, or due to your play style being one which actually minimizes real danger of PC death through extreme caution (thus making the tension be over how to achieve your goals while exercising that caution, not over the actual fear of death itself).

I say this because of simple statistics: the odds that your character will die over the course of a campaign are equal to [1-(odds of your character surviving any particular encounter)](number of encounters where your character could die)​. If you have even a 10% chance (on average) of your PC dying in a given encounter, then you have more than a 51% chance that your character will die by the end of 7 encounters.

Most games have far more than 7 encounters. And 10% is about as low as I would place a "chance of dying" before I'd question whether any given encounter is meant to make you feel at risk of it, sufficient to cause tension just from that concern. In fact, if you ran that number past a survey worth of players and GMs, and told them that that was the chance that one PC would die in any given encounter in a system, many would scoff at it being a system without sufficient challenge. (I do attribute this to humans often being VERY BAD at statistics-based inference without sitting down and being shown the math).


Most modern games actually have vanishingly small chances that any PCs will die, but create an illusion of it by carefully calibrating things so that there is a moderate to high chance that a "balanced encounter" (yes, this is more a D&D term than Exalted, but bear with me) will leave a PC very low in hp, or whatever other resources measure how close to dying they came. Exalted is actually less-well calibrated than this, in any edition, which is why people start griping about it being either too lethal (without paranoia combos) or too easy (with them). 3e combat is no less lethal, if allowed to get to a decisive strike without Charm protection.

In systems where this calibration is not finely tuned enough to "easily" handle it for the GM, many GMs will fudge dice or otherwise find ways to pull punches, trying to create the illusion of danger while actually removing it. Much like a particular character in SAO with a seemingly-excellent defense looks like he still is beatable, until you realize that his last hit point is actually inviolable.

Now, I don't know your games or your STs, Kaiya, so I won't assert what is happening there. But I will say that, if there isn't some strong illusionism going, either you're vastly overestimating the danger from a statistical sense, or you've been amazingly lucky to have characters survive long enough to invest yourself in them, and/or your ability to re-invest in each new one without getting jaded at the turnover rate.

That, or you don't actually have too many encounters where your PCs' life is in danger, after all, and just recall those rare events particularly sharply because the threat of death really was tense for you.

I don't know; I'm not you. This is just my best analysis given the tiny window you've given me into your experience, based on my own experience and knowledge of human nature, especially wrt investment in characters and games.
 
Have you, though?

I'm not trying to be smug or confrontational, here, but I am challenging you to look back at these situations where your character(s) "could have died." Perhaps this is an unfair question, but are you sure your GM wasn't just very good at creating the illusion of potential death?

Because if not, and yet your PC came through sufficiently often - or rather died sufficiently rarely - that you were able to maintain investment in your PCs without becoming jaded, then you've gotten amazingly lucky.

It is more probable that your PCs lived either due to the danger of death being less than you believed, or due to your play style being one which actually minimizes real danger of PC death through extreme caution (thus making the tension be over how to achieve your goals while exercising that caution, not over the actual fear of death itself).

I say this because of simple statistics: the odds that your character will die over the course of a campaign are equal to [1-(odds of your character surviving any particular encounter)](number of encounters where your character could die)​. If you have even a 10% chance (on average) of your PC dying in a given encounter, then you have more than a 51% chance that your character will die by the end of 7 encounters.

Most games have far more than 7 encounters. And 10% is about as low as I would place a "chance of dying" before I'd question whether any given encounter is meant to make you feel at risk of it, sufficient to cause tension just from that concern. In fact, if you ran that number past a survey worth of players and GMs, and told them that that was the chance that one PC would die in any given encounter in a system, many would scoff at it being a system without sufficient challenge. (I do attribute this to humans often being VERY BAD at statistics-based inference without sitting down and being shown the math).


Most modern games actually have vanishingly small chances that any PCs will die, but create an illusion of it by carefully calibrating things so that there is a moderate to high chance that a "balanced encounter" (yes, this is more a D&D term than Exalted, but bear with me) will leave a PC very low in hp, or whatever other resources measure how close to dying they came. Exalted is actually less-well calibrated than this, in any edition, which is why people start griping about it being either too lethal (without paranoia combos) or too easy (with them). 3e combat is no less lethal, if allowed to get to a decisive strike without Charm protection.

In systems where this calibration is not finely tuned enough to "easily" handle it for the GM, many GMs will fudge dice or otherwise find ways to pull punches, trying to create the illusion of danger while actually removing it. Much like a particular character in SAO with a seemingly-excellent defense looks like he still is beatable, until you realize that his last hit point is actually inviolable.

Now, I don't know your games or your STs, Kaiya, so I won't assert what is happening there. But I will say that, if there isn't some strong illusionism going, either you're vastly overestimating the danger from a statistical sense, or you've been amazingly lucky to have characters survive long enough to invest yourself in them, and/or your ability to re-invest in each new one without getting jaded at the turnover rate.

That, or you don't actually have too many encounters where your PCs' life is in danger, after all, and just recall those rare events particularly sharply because the threat of death really was tense for you.

I don't know; I'm not you. This is just my best analysis given the tiny window you've given me into your experience, based on my own experience and knowledge of human nature, especially wrt investment in characters and games.
...this is so completely anathema to how I approach games I'm just gonna bow out here.
 
Once, back in the days of 2e, I proposed a houserule for dealing with lethality. It went like this:

Nobody important ever dies in a fight, or suffers permanent harm. If someone gets injured so badly they can't continue fighting, they have to run away, or dramatically fall off a cliff to their off-camera doom, or get blasted over the horizon in comedic fashion, or get hauled off by the local police, or something. And the winners are not allowed to pursue them, or coup-de-grace them while they're helpless, or anything else. If the loser is absolutely unable to dramatically exit in appropriate fashion, everyone should just leave that person laying on the ground and ignore him or her for the rest of the scene.

The exception to this is cut-scenes. Anyone who isn't an extra can, on his or her action, declare that it's now a full-motion cutscene, and everyone knows that important characters can die during cutscenes. So, at that point, before the cutscene starts, anyone who doesn't want to participate can concede and flee safely, but anyone who keeps fighting can actually suffer non-trivial effects.

It was not a popular suggestion.
 
...this is so completely anathema to how I approach games I'm just gonna bow out here.
to be clear @Segev because I have a bad history with poor communication: I'm not saying "This is so dumb I won't talk to you", I just have no idea how I can really engage with this as an argument, because it's completely alien to how I view risk of death and building in TTRPGs. Working out the encounter math like that feels so apples to oranges with me that I feel like an extended discussion would just be us talking at each other rather than with, because it's not an idea I feel like I can successfully parse and engage with.
 
Most modern games actually have vanishingly small chances that any PCs will die, but create an illusion of it by carefully calibrating things so that there is a moderate to high chance that a "balanced encounter" (yes, this is more a D&D term than Exalted, but bear with me) will leave a PC very low in hp, or whatever other resources measure how close to dying they came. Exalted is actually less-well calibrated than this, in any edition, which is why people start griping about it being either too lethal (without paranoia combos) or too easy (with them). 3e combat is no less lethal, if allowed to get to a decisive strike without Charm protection.

This is basically true, sure. But i disagree with 3e being no less lethal than Ex2.

Even a very light Solar has a very good chance to survive most encounters in 3e. They don't need perfect defenses for it.

What the lack of perfects allows, though, it's to allow at least a measure of danger. The illusion you speak off. Which in 2E didn't really exist. In 2e, with a paranoia combo, you knew you were 100% safe as long as you didn't get motetapped.
 
This is basically true, sure. But i disagree with 3e being no less lethal than Ex2.

Even a very light Solar has a very good chance to survive most encounters in 3e. They don't need perfect defenses for it.

What the lack of perfects allows, though, it's to allow at least a measure of danger. The illusion you speak off. Which in 2E didn't really exist. In 2e, with a paranoia combo, you knew you were 100% safe as long as you didn't get motetapped.
also in my second Ex3 game I was in @Gargulec got an arm torn off, punched through a wall while on fire, and nearly eaten alive by a giant crocodile it was hilarious
 
I agree that GIrl Genius is great inspiration, but I don't like the idea of making setting up the Craft roll into such a big deal. Sure, it helps with the decker problem, but as 2e showed it can easily devolve into tedious busywork. Exotic ingredients were intended to do exactly that, and they weren't a great success.
Mm, I think that's mostly a matter of execution. Exotic reagents were a good idea, but they were too focused on making each one a fetch quest, and were largely ignored by the rest of the system - most Craft Charms, for example, were focused on enabling and speeding up the process of sitting in a workshop hammering out daiklaves.

What I'm suggesting here is that the rules for craft should be simple to the point of being simplistic, with a sidebar encouraging groups to frontload as much of the effort as possible onto regular play that can be woven into the session in general, which should also be used to create opportunities and plothooks for the crafter; if they're bargaining for skilled labour or noble patronage or access to a workshop manse, well, the most reliable coin they have is their expertise as an artisan. None of this necessarily has to be a big deal - an Exalt probably isn't going to have to go far out of their way to get a workforce, but they are the kind of low-intensity things that generate plothooks, and keep a crafter engaged with the larger narrative.

And also, yes, put a lot more weight on non-artifact crafting.
 
to be clear @Segev because I have a bad history with poor communication: I'm not saying "This is so dumb I won't talk to you", I just have no idea how I can really engage with this as an argument, because it's completely alien to how I view risk of death and building in TTRPGs. Working out the encounter math like that feels so apples to oranges with me that I feel like an extended discussion would just be us talking at each other rather than with, because it's not an idea I feel like I can successfully parse and engage with.
Understood, and fair enough. I wish we could have the discussion, but I do get the concern, and you might well be right about talking "at" each other. Where I'm coming from isn't really about "approach to games" so much as about understanding the underlying nature of games.

I have adopted this approach to understanding because I got too frustrated with my games trying to be one thing and devolving into another, and I wanted to figure out WHY. I find that understanding the underlying nature of things makes it easier to design towards intent. Too many efforts to create games start with a vision, then simply write rules without understanding how they will really wind up working, and blaming people for "doing it wrong" when they play the game they're given rather than the game the designer hoped to make. White Wolf games are ESPECIALLY guilty of this, with multiple paragraphs in various books talking about how only bad RPers build characters the way the system they're about to show you encourage them to, rather than in this way that the designers WANT them built but which is like insisting that you drive your car by having a second person crouched in the foot-well and pushing the pedals with their hands, because paying people for that job is so important.

This is not a strike at you, Kaiya, nor even an attempt to have the conversation you're unsure we could have. This is me explaining that I'm not even talking about approaches to playing games, but my own efforts to understand how they work.

This is basically true, sure. But i disagree with 3e being no less lethal than Ex2.

Even a very light Solar has a very good chance to survive most encounters in 3e. They don't need perfect defenses for it.

What the lack of perfects allows, though, it's to allow at least a measure of danger. The illusion you speak off. Which in 2E didn't really exist. In 2e, with a paranoia combo, you knew you were 100% safe as long as you didn't get motetapped.
My trouble with the illusion is that it eventually fades. Even 10-year-olds have long since learned that the Evil Overlord will never kill the Princess or the Hero before the Hero rescues the Princess and gets home safely. The illusion of danger just isn't gripping anymore once we realize that it's illusory.

I dislike when games rely on that illusion for the primary source of tension. I don't mind having the danger be more real than in Exalted 2E, but having it be quite small is still good design for most modern RPG groups' purposes. Especially Onyx Path's preferred narrative-focused style, inherited from White Wolf, which Exalted explicitly encourages.

Trying to have only the illusion of danger (which is mostly illusory and is actually quite small) as the tension-driver is a problem. And any system which gives that illusion while decrying the lack of that illusion as "breaking the game" is doing a disservice to GMs.

Exalted 3e's level of danger is okay. But it is low enough that you need to have something other than, "This fight could kill you!" as the source of tension. The stakes of any given fight need to be mostly resting on something other than the possible death of the PCs. The PCs need a way to lose that they have every reason to worry could come to pass, and as a general rule, "You could die" is not sufficiently likely.

also in my second Ex3 game I was in @Gargulec got an arm torn off, punched through a wall while on fire, and nearly eaten alive by a giant crocodile it was hilarious
That's quite awesome, and one reason to adore the Gambit mechanics. I have a lot of appreciation for what Ex3 did with the combat system.
 
Back
Top