Have you, though?

I'm not trying to be smug or confrontational, here, but I am challenging you to look back at these situations where your character(s) "could have died." Perhaps this is an unfair question, but are you sure your GM wasn't just very good at creating the illusion of potential death?

Because if not, and yet your PC came through sufficiently often - or rather died sufficiently rarely - that you were able to maintain investment in your PCs without becoming jaded, then you've gotten amazingly lucky.

It is more probable that your PCs lived either due to the danger of death being less than you believed, or due to your play style being one which actually minimizes real danger of PC death through extreme caution (thus making the tension be over how to achieve your goals while exercising that caution, not over the actual fear of death itself).

I say this because of simple statistics: the odds that your character will die over the course of a campaign are equal to [1-(odds of your character surviving any particular encounter)](number of encounters where your character could die)​. If you have even a 10% chance (on average) of your PC dying in a given encounter, then you have more than a 51% chance that your character will die by the end of 7 encounters.

Most games have far more than 7 encounters. And 10% is about as low as I would place a "chance of dying" before I'd question whether any given encounter is meant to make you feel at risk of it, sufficient to cause tension just from that concern. In fact, if you ran that number past a survey worth of players and GMs, and told them that that was the chance that one PC would die in any given encounter in a system, many would scoff at it being a system without sufficient challenge. (I do attribute this to humans often being VERY BAD at statistics-based inference without sitting down and being shown the math).


Most modern games actually have vanishingly small chances that any PCs will die, but create an illusion of it by carefully calibrating things so that there is a moderate to high chance that a "balanced encounter" (yes, this is more a D&D term than Exalted, but bear with me) will leave a PC very low in hp, or whatever other resources measure how close to dying they came. Exalted is actually less-well calibrated than this, in any edition, which is why people start griping about it being either too lethal (without paranoia combos) or too easy (with them). 3e combat is no less lethal, if allowed to get to a decisive strike without Charm protection.

In systems where this calibration is not finely tuned enough to "easily" handle it for the GM, many GMs will fudge dice or otherwise find ways to pull punches, trying to create the illusion of danger while actually removing it. Much like a particular character in SAO with a seemingly-excellent defense looks like he still is beatable, until you realize that his last hit point is actually inviolable.

Now, I don't know your games or your STs, Kaiya, so I won't assert what is happening there. But I will say that, if there isn't some strong illusionism going, either you're vastly overestimating the danger from a statistical sense, or you've been amazingly lucky to have characters survive long enough to invest yourself in them, and/or your ability to re-invest in each new one without getting jaded at the turnover rate.

That, or you don't actually have too many encounters where your PCs' life is in danger, after all, and just recall those rare events particularly sharply because the threat of death really was tense for you.

I don't know; I'm not you. This is just my best analysis given the tiny window you've given me into your experience, based on my own experience and knowledge of human nature, especially wrt investment in characters and games.
Hey, hi, so I was actually Kaiya's GM for at least one of the games she's referring to.

@Imrix namechecked me in a recent post as someone who enjoys the Ex3 combat system as a game of its own. I love putting together fiddly combat encounters. All players moan and gnash their teeth in despair as I begin another two consecutive six-hour sessions of pure combat. I am unstoppable. This is what fun is to me.

So I have less than zero interest in constructing encounters purely for the players to take cosmetic damage and show off. They hate me for it; they weep and say, "Omi, I am playing a Solar, can't you just give me a hundred soldiers to fight so I stomp all over them and feel cool and powerful," and I look down and whisper, "the Dragon-Blooded commander enhances his Size 5 battlegroup of undead with the following War Charms..."

I'm actively trying to win the fight at all times, because there is no rule saying that if you're incapacitated you necessarily die, so I can always decide that an incapacitated PC survives in circumstances that severely penalize them. Then again, I might also not, if the fight was sufficiently dramatic and important enough as to warrant death. But with this possibility, I am freed for the burden of balancing encounters so that they look threatening but actually are risk-free.

I am free to do my best to TPK. And I have to in order to keep things interesting, because the tools I am given are shit.

The problem is that I'm running Core Ex3. Which means the players are Solars. There is no legitimate combat threat to a group of 5 Solars once they're past chargen which isn't a similarly-sized group of Solar-equivalents. The right DB can defeat the right Solar, but pit five DBs and five Solars and things will average out, resulting in a Solar win. Octavian can solo certain Solar builds with relative ease, but the action economy is the one true god and he will die to groups. You would need, like, three Octavians and a battlegroup of blood apes or something.

Also trying to run combat between two groups of equal size is a hell without exit or end. It will take 40 real-life hours. You will either die of mental exhaustion, or your players will murder you so they can be free at last.

Besides, at some point, you have to justify combat encounters. You can't have Octavian show up every week to be defeated again. There are only so many Celestials in the world for your PCs to encounter. Realistically they'll be going around fighting small armies of men led by mortals or god-blooded commanders, sorcerers with a few bound demons, the occasional undead horde. Chaff to a group of Solars. I regret that it's the case, but it is.

Therefore, Gloam City Nights, my perfect achievement in gaming. Take a city. Introduce an eldritch horror beneath it. Have almost the entire population be captured or consumed in one apocalyptic night, turned into twisted monsters. Have twelve Dragon-Bloods, each of whom is corrupted by the Thing Below and granted a unique anime power in exchange. Sprinkle with ghosts.

At last, an entire death city for me to play with. Laughter the Twilight, combat sorceress and martial artist, did in fact almost die - and not in an ""almost"" way, she had to take a major crippling injury to reduce the damage below lethal, losing an arm as a result.

But those were sadly the early days. Solars gain XP. They grow and change. Eventually came the time when I went at them with thousands of zombies led by a Dragon-Blooded commander, supported by a DB sorcerer in flight-and-kite mode, and two giant monsters with their own profile each.

It was an epic battle that took two entire sessions, and I don't think my players were even wounded by the end. They'd taken some hits sure, withering ones, but no decisive damage. Underwhelming.

The tools I were given were weak. Therefore, I needed to change the parametres of the game itself.

I split the party.


This resulted in three of my best scenes ever.

First, Velvet the Eclipse gets to fight a DB spirit-binder with his pet demon. She beats the DB, but can't beat the demon, which the player had statted himself, as she runs out of Essence. Eventually, the physical fight is decisively won by the spirit - which dies because it had an "Intimacy are poison" mechanic and Velvet had shot him with a soul-arrow full of Intimacy.

Then, a ghost - a measly ghost - possesses the servant of Laughter's girlfriend, poisons the meal on date night, backstab mid-meal, and the combined suddenness and brutality of the threat with the sense of threat coming from the villain having shaped the environment to her benefit, plus the fact that the NPC girlfriend could die there even if Laughter survived, proved to make this a rather tense encounter. Also, the fact that Laughter literally couldn't kill a ghost.

And then that very same ghost escaped and grabbed a bunch of children to lead the Night Caste into a warehouse fight where she was tossing the kids from beams to force our assassin out of stealth. The Solar could die, the children could die, the ghost still couldn't be killed. This is how you create genuine desperation. I feast on it. I am a monster. But in the end it was all for the greater good as Ein the Night Caste pulled off one of the sweetest moments in the game by killing an enemy who could not die.

It is perhaps, regretfully, a good thing that Exalted focuses on overpowered player characters. I try my best to murder them anyway, but my swords are brittle and my shields made of wood. I could not be trusted with steel. The last time I ran D&D, I rolled a displacer beast random encounter, took one look at it and went "well that is a fine moderate encounter, which will take some HP and resources but not kill anyone.

"That's lame.

"Okay so they're going to ambush the party at night while everyone is asleep..."

I don't know why people keep asking me to run stuff for them. I think I tell a good enough story that they don't realize I spend every waking moment plotting out how to kill them.
 
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To be fair, that is partially Laughter's own fault. She voluntarily let a river dragon swallow her whole, IIRC.
If I recall correctly I was very glaringly asking players "HEY SO HOW CLOSE ARE YOU TO THE WATER"

"WHO IS AT THE HEAD OF THE GROUP"

"ASKING FOR NO REAL REASON"

and then the river dragon with DB Charms jumped out of the water to attempt a bite-roll-dive maneuvre on Laughter and I was so sad when he didn't manage to pull her under where he would be free from the group's retaliation and she'd have to fight him alone while grappled and drowning

I am a monster.
 
If I recall correctly I was very glaringly asking players "HEY SO HOW CLOSE ARE YOU TO THE WATER"

"WHO IS AT THE HEAD OF THE GROUP"

"ASKING FOR NO REAL REASON"

and then the river dragon with DB Charms jumped out of the water to attempt a bite-roll-dive maneuvre on Laughter and I was so sad when he didn't manage to pull her under where he would be free from the group's retaliation and she'd have to fight him alone while grappled and drowning

I am a monster.

Me: Hey Omi
remember when I said I bet a Third Circle Demon would TPK us
And you challenged Suntarankel to a duel

Omi:
oh god
I did
I did that
for perpetuity's sake :3
 
Tbh if it didn't take six hours to resolve a combat or the combat was sufficiently exciting, then you sound like a blast to be a player for.
 
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Tbh if it didn't take six hours to resolve a combat or the combat was sufficiently exciting, then you sound like a blast to be a player for.
Velvet's solo fight against the DB spirit-binder and his pet lasted eleven hours. Straight. It was just too tense and nerve-wracking to put it off until the next session time.

The secret is to not make a combat just a combat, but also an emotional engagement. You can read about it there and there.

for perpetuity's sake :3
i would have won
 
Urm... something I was thinking of. I think that we should allow mutations that allow more essence pools for heroic mortals and basically anyone that doesn't have cheap access to perfect defenses, so that playing as, say, a mortal sorcerer or martial artist lets you pull off more stuff than exalts, but on a smaller scale.
 
Urm... something I was thinking of. I think that we should allow mutations that allow more essence pools for heroic mortals and basically anyone that doesn't have cheap access to perfect defenses, so that playing as, say, a mortal sorcerer or martial artist lets you pull off more stuff than exalts, but on a smaller scale.
No. The game is "Exalted" not "Heroic Mortals: The Mortaling." If you wanna run your own offshoot, though, go ahead. But if you play as a mortal in an Exalted game, that's a character choice, and the ST is under no obligation to break the setting to make you not feel behind. Mortals are not the Exalted. They can not do as much. They cannot do what they can do as well. Anything a mortal can do, an Exalt can do better.

That is what Exalted means.
 
No. The game is "Exalted" not "Heroic Mortals: The Mortaling." If you wanna run your own offshoot, though, go ahead. But if you play as a mortal in an Exalted game, that's a character choice, and the ST is under no obligation to break the setting to make you not feel behind. Mortals are not the Exalted. They can not do as much. They cannot do what they can do as well. Anything a mortal can do, an Exalt can do better.

That is what Exalted means.
I suppose you feel that the immortality mutation in Dreams of the First age is non-canon?
 
It was canon, in Second Edition. It's not canon anymore. And an Exalt could do the same thing, except they would also be Exalted. And still better in literally all the ways.
Um. I meant for 2e. I mean, there's already a mutation that exalted cannot have. Why not a few more? Just say that their mote pool is tied to their exaltation, and cannot be altered by outside means.
 
Um. I meant for 2e. I mean, there's already a mutation that exalted cannot have. Why not a few more? Just say that their mote pool is tied to their exaltation, and cannot be altered by outside means.
Dreams of the First Age is wildly reviled for a reason. That is one of them. "You can't be immortal if you Exalt" is fucking stupid. The whole late 2e "Let's make mortals the real heroes unlike those lazy privilaged Exalts" was stupid. If you want to play a long lived hero with magic kung-fu, Sorcery, and a huge mote pool, play a Solar.
 
Urm... something I was thinking of. I think that we should allow mutations that allow more essence pools for heroic mortals and basically anyone that doesn't have cheap access to perfect defenses, so that playing as, say, a mortal sorcerer or martial artist lets you pull off more stuff than exalts, but on a smaller scale.
Simply put: Why is this desirable? Exalted is not concerned with being 'fair'. Being an Exalt means you are, simply, better than a mortal. That's kind of a core conceit of the game.

Mortals still matter, obviously, but they matter because they are the populace of nations and the people that mighty heroes care about. Mortals don't get to do more stuff than Exalts - they can compete, sometimes, with extensive preparation and if the terms favour them, but if you compare a mortal sorcerer and an Exalted sorcerer, the Exalt is and should be flatly superior.
The whole late 2e "Let's make mortals the real heroes unlike those lazy privilaged Exalts" was stupid.
What. No, Kaiya, 2e had the opposite problem.
 
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What. No, Kaiya, 2e had the opposite problem.
No, I didn't mean the actual rules, I mean the fandom reaction. All the homebrew for mortal Sorcerers to be stronger than Exalts by stacking mutations and such, all the talks about "Well a mortal earns their power, Exaltation is a lottery, clearly the mortal is the real hero" on the old forums. It's a discussion I saw more than twice, and "Immortality mutation" was center.
 
I want mortals to be relevant and heroic and be able to do awesome stuff because then I, as an Exalt, am therefore even more awesome. I'm not just a hero, I'm an Exalt.

If mortals can't be relevant or cool on their own, then I do not feel as awesome.
 
Urm... something I was thinking of. I think that we should allow mutations that allow more essence pools for heroic mortals and basically anyone that doesn't have cheap access to perfect defenses, so that playing as, say, a mortal sorcerer or martial artist lets you pull off more stuff than exalts, but on a smaller scale.

The major issue with allowing mortals access to good utility effects is that then you have all sorts of clever yoinks trying to farm the perfect mortal assistants for their Exalt.

Like, Solars have ways of giving mortals mutations. Lunars have ways of giving mortals mutations. Sidereals probably don't, except for Conning Chaos, but they're filthy cheaters so somebody is going to invent the Sneaky Tortoise Assassin martial arts style, which allows you to punch mutations onto people.

Then we have to put up with those people explaining their cleverness on the internet forever.


In practice, I tend to treat godbloods, heroic mortals, and so forth as much more unique than the rules would suggest. The map is not the territory. So if there was a compelling enough story reason to have a specific mortal with access to a lot more motes than is normal, it could happen. Probably by picking up Essence Plethora as a spirit charm for some wacky reason or other, with inconvenient conditions for refilling the mote pool. But wacky one-off abilities can encompass lots of stuff. I could see introducing a wacky mortal that could cast a specific Celestial Circle spell in particular circumstances, but I wouldn't allow rules that standardized how mortals can get access to celestial sorcery, for instance.
 
I want mortals to be relevant and heroic and be able to do awesome stuff because then I, as an Exalt, am therefore even more awesome. I'm not just a hero, I'm an Exalt.

If mortals can't be relevant or cool on their own, then I do not feel as awesome.
Mortals can be relevant and cool on their own still. They aren't as wildly over the top cool as the Exalted but your mortal hero can still slash or punch his way through a good number of guardsman when he needs to.
 
What a lot of people didn't get in 1e and 2e was that to even qualify for Exaltation, you already had to be exceptional. Not only in terms of moral character or heroic spirit, but in having a larger than life presence. Basically you had to already be a protagonist before the shiny struck you.

Jet Li's Fearless imo is a good example of a Heroic Mortal, in that the lead character is already a property owner, married, a talented martial artist (with a chip on his shoulder) and more. That's all in the first act.

It's not that all potential Exalts/character concepts have to be that, but you're not an Exalt for 16-20 years of your life.
 
The larger problem with having mortals be heroic and awesome is that Exalted frequently uses fictional and mythological mortal heroes as a reference point for what Exaltation means. When you're told that being a low essence Solar means you can play Odysseus, or Lelouch vi Britannia, or Guts from Berserk, or Batman—characters who are, despite their supernatural quirks, explicitly human in their stories—what's left for actual heroic mortals?

When the game, in some sense, codes Heroism itself as Exaltation, it makes it much harder to figure out what non-Exalted Heroism looks like. The solution, in my mind, is to come up with cleaner tiers of power and to stop referring to people like Odysseus as an Exalted archetype as opposed to a Heroic Mortal archetype. He's like Geralt of Rivia—definitely better at certain things than the average person, and capable of some truly impressive feats, but not capable of the insanity that Lelouch gets up to. Say that street-level superheroes are heroic Mortals, while the Avengers or the Justice League are the Exalts.

It would also really help to fill the game out with more interesting, powerful (ideally playable) character types that aren't Exalts, so that Exaltation doesn't become an automatic stand-in for protagonist or plot significance.
 
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