Strictly speaking, in the First Age the blessed isle should have been strip mined down as far as possible for the needed stone for every Solar, Lunar and Sidereal capable of casting it, so they could expand their retinue with amazingly capable assistants.
Perhaps they did. Figure a cubic foot of stone per sorcerer per day, times 700 eligible exalts, times 3500 years of 420 days each, that's only about seven one-thousandths of a cubic mile. Digging out the underground portions of the city of Meru could plausibly have involved moving at least that much stone. Many of the amalgams would have died of old age long before the Usurpation, then the remaining few million would have been executed at Marama's Fell. Since then, solars have been mostly out of the picture, sidereals have audits to worry about, and the Wyld Hunt ensures that lunars don't have easy access to the necessary materials.
 
And they'll kinda fail, cause... bribes, lunar charms, lunar spacefolding charms, teleportation, as well as mundane smuggling.
 
And they'll kinda fail, cause... bribes, lunar charms, lunar spacefolding charms, teleportation, as well as mundane smuggling.
Yep. You could play Twilight-caste Walter White and his Lunar mate Jesse Pinkman, up against Immaculate Master Hank Schrader, Gold-Faction Gustavo Fring, and their various allies. You'd probably succeed at least a few times, but those amalgams don't have working paranoia combos, so they'd be priority assassination targets... or they might even end up captured, used as arcane links to help track you or lay curses remotely. The more you invest in defense and evasion, the fewer charm slots they have for doing useful work. Sounds like a whole series worth of adventure hooks to me.

I looked up Jon Chung's original "Jeeves manse" concept, and noticed it's got maxed-out fragility, habitability, and maintenance. You know what that means? It's not going to be a solid orichalcum fortress. More like Doc Manhattan's glass palace on Mars, only instead of just neatly imploding, there'll be a half-mile-wide mutagenic fireball as soon as someone sneezes too hard, let alone snipes at it with a lightning ballista. White-room, spherical-cow counterarguments so often say something would be too powerful, or boring in actual play, but neglect the glaring weak points that an opposing exalt could identify and exploit.
 
If the most powerful empire in existence dedicates an enormous constant effort to limiting the use of this one specific spell, then it's only ten or twenty times better than crafting Artifact servants. For Lunars, that is. For Sidereals the empire's efforts are irrelevant.

Thing's hilariously broken. Like I said back when we were arguing about the Usurpation-OK test, if one Charm or spell changes the shape of Creation, it's probably broken.
 
I looked up Jon Chung's original "Jeeves manse" concept, and noticed it's got maxed-out fragility, habitability, and maintenance. You know what that means? It's not going to be a solid orichalcum fortress. More like Doc Manhattan's glass palace on Mars, only instead of just neatly imploding, there'll be a half-mile-wide mutagenic fireball as soon as someone sneezes too hard, let alone snipes at it with a lightning ballista. White-room, spherical-cow counterarguments so often say something would be too powerful, or boring in actual play, but neglect the glaring weak points that an opposing exalt could identify and exploit.

You do realise that just like the Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick, @Jon Chung devised this kind of thing to demonstrate how broken and requiring GM "No, fuck you if you try this" intervention the Oadenal's manse rules are, right?

It's not something you're meant to do in actual play. It's a "you can do this with the rules and it's dumb and it needs to be fixed".
 
Isn't that exactly the point of Ghost-Eating Technique & similar, it caused a massive paradigm shift?

The "and similar" is important; the Exalted being able to kill Primordials is a fact that informs the design of their Charms as a whole, not a random quirk of one Charm's writeup.

That being said, there are a few Charms and spells that are iconic enough to be exceptions from the general rule I espoused there. Wyld Shaping and demon summoning come to mind. I'd be happier with those as general classes of effect (would be cool if, for example, you could conquer bits of Wyld for Creation with War) but they're not terrible as one-ofs.
 
Quick question on the GET and its derivatives.

Is there any variant which tells you what you just killed?

Such as if you manage to assassinate your opponent, your sure you got th right guy because GET returned solar essence on the kill, so it wasn't just some decoy, you got your exalt.

Or is the only way to really be sure that your targets the right person is pushing them to totemic, then killing them for that 100% certainty.

That or tracking them for days, documenting their every action until your sure they correspond to a charm set-up only a lunar could have, and what are the odds of there being 2 lunars in the city anyway. Then tracking them to bed and slitting there throat being 99% certain you got the right guy.
 
Isn't that exactly the point of Ghost-Eating Technique & similar, it caused a massive paradigm shift?
"Usurpation-OK" means that if you take some interaction of a charm or spell or a group of charms or spells used together and find that their existence or use blow up the setting as is, then they are bad.

Ghost killing technique is taken into account and it's existence is part of what makes the setting as is exist the way it does. A Solar Socialize charm that perfectly roots out conspiracies against you breaks the setting because it existing means that the Usurpation could never have taken place the way it is supposed to have taken place without someone revealing it. Likewise, the potential for there to have been multiple thousands of beings running around in any first age kingdom, or heaven, or the threshold now with access to Solar/Sidereal/Lunar charms that aren't themselves Exalted breaks the setting as is wide open (and would be talked about in the lore).
 
You do realise that just like the Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick, @Jon Chung devised this kind of thing to demonstrate
Yes, I'm aware of his intentions. I have immense respect for Mr. Chung's technical expertise, but we disagree on certain philosophical points.
how broken and requiring GM "No, fuck you if you try this" intervention the Oadenal's manse rules are, right?
The risks of geomantic catastrophe due to enemy action or simple misstep are a major balancing factor in the Oadenol's Codex chapter on demesnes and manses. The point is hammered on again and again, with both specific examples and suggestions of broader categories. It's right there on the first page, even:
Accustomed to thinking of their craft as one that shifted the dragons themselves, the early geomancers coined a cautionary proverb: "Touch the dragon and it may turn over, but no one wishes the dragon to wake."
Demesnes and manses can be noticed from miles away by any essence-user, not just the PCs, or 'much further' with appropriate thaumaturgical divinations. The implication is, if you're living in a manse, you're not laying low. Demigods or demons might wander by at any time and try to sell you encyclopedias (or whatever it is they do) so you'd better have some sort of plan for dealing with that. The Invisible Fortress, as detailed in a two-part adventure back in 1e, was originally meant to be an exception to that rule... but that was a unique wonder, the pinnacle achievement of Kal Bax's long and illustrious career as quite possibly the greatest human geomancer ever to have lived, the design had some inherent flaws (including, but not limited to, a tendency to drive long-term occupants murderously insane), and even with the addition of a substantial force of demons patrolling the 50-mile radius around it, it still periodically attracted treasure-hunters.

If a supposedly well-optimized manse crumples like tinfoil as soon as some random raksha directs a few generic bandits to build a siege engine and lob rocks at it, before the Wyld Hunt can even get there, the optimization process which produced it neglected some very important factors. There's also the issue that Wyld Shaping Technique isn't a blank check for every conceivable exotic component, so crafting actual artifacts would still require some manner of supply lines.
It's not something you're meant to do in actual play. It's a "you can do this with the rules and it's dumb and it needs to be fixed".
To my understanding there are three things you're not meant to do in actual play, by the core rules: true resurrection, time travel, and rescinding someone's Exaltation while leaving them alive. The common theme there is "no take-backs." Violence has permanent consequences, if you escalate it far enough, and that level of escalation is inherently incompatible with mercy. No simple third option to let Aang stop Ozai without compromising his principles. Exalted says, to me, "alright, sure, you're the Invincible Sword Princess. Now what?" Yeah, that young dragon-blooded is no real threat to you anymore; you could probably even beat him unconscious and leave him alive, if you were so inclined. Would he be any more inclined to listen to reason after he woke up? What are you going to do with all this power?

The combat system is there to define how things will turn out when negotiations break down, whether that's because Arthur and Mordred have fundamentally incompatible goals, or because one of their knights saw a snake and whipped out his sword without thinking. If you're the only one who brought a full paranoia combo and a grand killstick to the party, that probably means you'll be the one deciding who lives and who dies. Might be fun, if you're into that kind of thing, but it's not really obligated to be. As in early editions of D&D, violence is difficult and dangerous, a nasty last resort after stealth, diplomacy, trickery, intimidation, and possibly even retreat have failed.

Chejop Kejack works in an office where any given 'disgruntled former employee' story could lead to an extinction event. You don't even need Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick for that! There's a worked example in MoEP: Sidereals for how to wipe out a population using only sidereal astrology, which (unlike a line-of-sight attack) can't be shut down with anything nearly as cheap as stone walls or alchemical smoke bombs. So, he goes to tea parties, and plays politics, and does his best every day to make sure nobody with access to such power ends up in a situation where that's the best way to get what they want. Sometimes, 'hard men making hard decisions' means using your ultimate mastery of the Perfected Lotus to shove a retired embezzler of quintessence through some high-minded idealist's divinely resilient kidney in a dark alleyway; more often, it means negotiating something everyone involved can live with, even if none of them are exactly happy. The Gold faction understands too, which is why they're not willing to teach SMA to the solars they're "guiding." It's just too dangerous, bad enough already needing to trust anyone at all with the powers Solars get access to innately.

I'm fine with the idea of specific mechanical bits being unbalanced or unplayable. Scene-long perfect defenses, excessively stackable equipment bonuses, SMAs with effects so overwhelming or incoherent that resolution would be effectively impossible, sure, all that needed to go. Even Verdant Emptiness Endowment, I decided to patch with a houserule that the user can't grant their own wish without taking an equivalent trait away from someone else first. But mass destruction alone isn't enough for me to call something overpowered. Right in the core book, talking about motes, there's a direct and explicit comparison of the power any given Solar has personally available to that of a nuclear bomb. If you don't like the mechanical possibility of a scene that starts with "you haven't even seen my final form!" to end with a city-sized crater and millions dead, I think that means you're playing the wrong game.
 
Yeah, @strange_person, we're working from fundamentally different axioms here.

Under my axioms, playing by 2e RAW (or even 2.5e RAW) and using things from every sourcebook is fucking stupid because it's full of broken and fucking stupid things. It is mandatory that a ST ban swathes of stuff. Treating the rules as if there are Easter eggs hidden in them that you can use to unlock true power is stupid because they aren't solid enough to do that.

Therefore trying to persuade me that I should let you use the stupid things from Oadenal's is pointless because I have already discarded the axiom that the rules have the benefit of the doubt. Likewise, Imbue Amalgam is an awful spell and should be burned to ash as written and therefore arguments based around using Imbue Amalgam in a "cunning" way have no grounding there. Arguing that the Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick is fine as a "Boss thing" will get me laughing you out of the room and if you try to insist on it, hitting you with the corebook. The 3e one at that, even if we're not playing 3e.

And spending thousands of words advocating that these exploitative readings be permitted isn't going to get you very far in the SV community, because the SV community has very little time for RAW play when RAW play leads to game-breaking things.
 
Quick question on the GET and its derivatives.

Is there any variant which tells you what you just killed?
Yeah, Spirit-Chaining Doom in the Abyssal charmset. Target doesn't actually die, but is instead healed back up to their last -4 health level, drained of willpower, and subject to a Servitude effect for a year and a day, which can include arbitrary unacceptable orders. The only way to resist (without specialized UMI-breaking magic) is 'exact words' shenanigans. Ordering someone to drop any and all disguises and explain the source of their powers seems like it'd be easy enough. Admittedly, a Solar with Transcendent Hero's Meditation, or a flame griffon, or conceivably other types of creature could commit suicide instead of answering.

More generally, if you've got essence sight active, and the ability to detect immaterial creatures, and a decent Perception + Occult pool (maybe backed up by some appropriate perfect effects) you could probably identify them just by watching which sort of souls come out, little bit like the "meet the spy" video for Team Fortress 2.
 
I'd say that if he did take a big heap of other spirits with him when he fled, and he's still dying anyway, those medicine gods weren't up to the task of treating Autochthon's illness.
Not Autochton's no; he's a bloody Primordial.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that they are part of the management teams for keeping his condition under control, but I would find it implausible that they would be considered capable of curing it. Even the UCS would draw my doubt.

But curing Void-infected Alchemicals? Should be within their bailiwick.
 
If a supposedly well-optimized manse crumples like tinfoil as soon as some random raksha directs a few generic bandits to build a siege engine and lob rocks at it, before the Wyld Hunt can even get there, the optimization process which produced it neglected some very important factors
Look, I'm singling this out because people are addressing your other points, but not this one. I looked up the build as well, and the very first thing he points out is that he took Indestructible so that you literally can't do this. Yes, it would explode if someone were to tap it with something that ignored total invulnerability, but since those don't exist in setting, the only way to deal with it is to actively change the landscape around it over the course of several weeks to cut off it's source of power, while it is constantly producing forces to make you stop.
 
If you're telling me that Dragon-Blooded/elemental rape camps are not only totally legit, but an intended function of the game, I wish to unsubscribe from your newsletter, to be honest.
What? No, I'm not saying that. Where did I say that?
Under my axioms, playing by 2e RAW (or even 2.5e RAW) and using things from every sourcebook is fucking stupid because it's full of broken and fucking stupid things. It is mandatory that a ST ban swathes of stuff.
I'm not disagreeing that the 2e or 2.5e rules need to be substantially culled in order to be usable. It's just a question of exactly which swathes need to go, and which are salvageable.

Line of sight, for example. Right in the core book, page 135, there are rules for how far it's possible to see in a city or forest environment with less than ideal illumination. In Compass: East there's further detail on how far useful sight-lines can reach through a forest before terminating at hard cover in the form of a tree's trunk. Even in a wide-open environment like a sandy desert, dune people and eight-tailed mole hounds spend the daylight hours underground.
 
Look, I'm singling this out because people are addressing your other points, but not this one. I looked up the build as well, and the very first thing he points out is that he took Indestructible so that you literally can't do this. Yes, it would explode if someone were to tap it with something that ignored total invulnerability, but since those don't exist in setting, the only way to deal with it is to actively change the landscape around it over the course of several weeks to cut off it's source of power, while it is constantly producing forces to make you stop.
Fragility aside, Habitability 3 means nobody can live in there, and Maintenance 5 means it's never more than a day away from some sort of spontaneous breakdown. Who's in charge of protecting the maintenance crew?
 
Fragility aside, Habitability 3 means nobody can live in there, and Maintenance 5 means it's never more than a day away from some sort of spontaneous breakdown. Who's in charge of protecting the maintenance crew?
Chung's original writeup said:
Bound Servant Force 3 - Minions. For general helping out, maintenance and repair, and they add successes to our Craft rolls.
 
Is there any variant which tells you what you just killed?
Not in Occult, but you could do it with Awareness i think? Or just make a successor to GET that tells you. It would be more an abyssal concept than a Solar one though.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that they are part of the management teams for keeping his condition under control, but I would find it implausible that they would be considered capable of curing it. Even the UCS would draw my doubt.
True, also people should remember that Auto's sickness is also him. A bad part of him, but a necessary one for who he is. If it were ever "cured" he would likely experience a dramatic alteration in nature, and such things in Primordials are generally not good.
What? No, I'm not saying that. Where did I say that?
It comes out of the sort of reading of the rules you are doing.
Fragility aside, Habitability 3 means nobody can live in there, and Maintenance 5 means it's never more than a day away from some sort of spontaneous breakdown. Who's in charge of protecting the maintenance crew?
Taskbind Demons to do it.
 
Bound Servant Force 3 - Minions. For general helping out, maintenance and repair, and they add successes to our Craft rolls.
Maintenance on artifacts, sure. Warstriders and necrotech and lots of other stuff needs skilled attention during downtime. If the manse (including integral minions) can tend to it's own geomancy without any significant supervision, outside supplies, or practical inconvenience, though, it's not earning those 5 points from the Maintenance disadvantage, same as anything with utterly impervious armor shouldn't be getting points for Fragility.
Taskbind Demons to do it.
With Habitability 3 the workers, demon or otherwise, still can't be living inside. Banish them, or lay down some area-effect Holy damage, and it'll fall apart before new ones can be bound. Also, by getting demons involved you're opening the whole thing up to infiltration and subversion. The more important this project is, the more likely the Yozis are to exercise that ever-present option to possess their underlings.
It comes out of the sort of reading of the rules you are doing.
I have never seen a satisfactory game-mechanical model of the odds for a given child's exaltation as a Terrestrial, even after putting a fair amount of thought into inventing a new system for that from scratch (based on a dice pool, rather than a single d10). The idea that interbreeding with elementals would be beneficial in any way strikes me as absurd, not only from a mechanical balance standpoint but thematically and metaphysically. Creating new 'legendary breeding' Terrestrials would require Gaia's personal involvement, just as creating new purebred Lintha would require Kimbery's personal involvement.
 
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