A block of stone quarried from the Pole of Earth that is found in Autocthonia is being incorporated into some aspect of the great maker that draws on it's nature as being from the Pole of Earth. If you want to switch that out as a component, a valid replacement would have to be equally as rare and equally as mystically important.

This is like when someone claims they can make a mortal who can beat a dawn in combat, but when you look at the plan it includes giving the mortal like 500xp worth of stats and mutations on the solar and 100 dots of artifacts and hearthstones.
 
A block of stone quarried from the Pole of Earth that is found in Autocthonia is being incorporated into some aspect of the great maker that draws on it's nature as being from the Pole of Earth. If you want to switch that out as a component, a valid replacement would have to be equally as rare and equally as mystically important.
Equally as rare? The Blessed Isle's got plenty of rocks. You can literally pick 'em up off the ground for free, in some places. Doesn't say it has to be any specific kind of rock, marble or granite or quartz or whatever. The gemstones don't seem to have a specific requirement of originating from the Blessed Isle, so it's likely possible to either dig them up somewhere in the Realm of Brass and Shadow, or synthesize something adequate with alchemy.
Equally as mystically important? Well, how about quartz cut from the Elemental Pole of Crystal? That's fairly similar to Earth: solid, centrally placed, with anti-Wyld associations.
 
Do you have any textual basis whatsoever for any of those claims, beyond a gut reaction? The Dreamscape Tutor Gem is not an object, but rather, as you say in that very next sentence, an automaton - which is a type of creature. It has a stat block with attributes, abilities - even a Join Battle dice pool! - soak but no hardness, and a range of possible charms "useable for teaching purposes only without volition." The spell Imbue Amalgam could reasonably be construed as a "teaching purpose," and any given "donor's" participation explicitly does not require volition.
Automata are things, not creatures. They lack souls, which I would say defines a creature. You can have something that is not a person roll dice just fine. I would also assert that Imbue Amalgam is not teaching, just duplicating knowledge, which isn't the same thing.
Going by the timeline from Dreams of the First Age, Autocthon packed up and left about 120 years after the end of the Primordial War. That's the entire Ochre Fountain Era, plus the first ten years or so of the First Deliberative. Ochre Fountain extended to the edges of Creation at the south and east, bordermarches and middlemarches together were narrow enough back then to cross in a single day, and dueling was the standard accepted form of conflict resolution, so they definitely would have butted heads with Unshaped Raksha at some point. Once you've been out there, inventing Chaos-Repelling Pattern and Wyld-Shaping Technique is a simple matter of self-defense, then Order-Affirming Blow lets you smack down chaos-spawn in one shot AND clean up the worst side effects afterward. Once they'd had enough of pushing at the frontiers and turned back to centralize, the cities of Sperimin and Denandsor were founded. Sperimin was all about scholarship - y'know, the kind of collegial environment where folks might share some of their nifty new Lore charms - and Denandsor was all about crafting, particularly specialized in automata.
Order Affirming Blow is not something I would see most Solar's ever bothering with. Earlier charms, sure. But Wyld Cauldron is probably the territory of people specialized in Wyld fuckery, and Order Affirming blow a rare technique held only by people who are both experts in mutations and heavy fighters. Not a big group. Not a lot of sources there. And by rare, i meant Dreamstones with such charms that aren't a necessity for most Solars aren't gonna be common, if they were even invented in the tiny period of the First Age Auto was around for, and not sometime in the millenia after he left. Most probably had things like Heavy Guardian Defense, IPP, Iron kettle Body, Hypnotic Tongue technique, bread and butter charms, not high level exotic charms.
Esoteric? We're talking about standard corebook material here. Wyld-Shaping Technique is an amazing charm, right up there with Demon of the First Circle in the sheer scope of it's versatility. Whoever first invented WST definitely would've returned to Merela's court to brag about it, and she might've said "yeah, that's a pretty good trick, you should write that one down." Wouldn't want to lose the genius idea to some blood-sport-related mishap, right? Same deal for Order-Affirming Blow, but even more so because it's directly useful in a fight. Doesn't take all that long to design a 2-dot artifact from scratch, not when you've got the sort of unspoiled resources they had back then. After the Ocher Fountain Era, with the loss of some mountain folk tech and advent of a centralized government over all the exalted, there'd be even more pressure toward preservation of core competencies in a standardized curriculum.
Preserving knowledge is not the same as "make complex magitech automata to store information and train instantly". Books work fine for storing things. Most tech was likely focused on more useful things than an exotic teaching thing, building vehicles to travel the untamed Creation, systems to help agriculture, roads, etc. Actually practical things. The Dreamscape Tutor sounds like a late First Age thing when all the actually urgent issues had been solved. Order Affirming is so hard to learn, and requires significant investment in multiple areas, that it's not a logical purpose for any but a few.
Well, how about quartz cut from the Elemental Pole of Crystal? That's fairly similar to Earth: solid, centrally placed, with anti-Wyld associations.
Not the same at all. The Elemental Pole of Earth is all about stability, which likely is why it's used. Quartz from Auto's pole isn't powerful in the same way. It's tied to his themes, not the themes of Creations. You'd probably have a better time trying to replace the stone with another Gaian Element, Auto's are just too different, and should remain separate.
 
This is like seeing all of late 2e happen again before my eyes; it is only minutes from someone declaring Dragon-Blooded to be glorified God-Blooded and affirming their belief in a Devil-Tiger ruled Creation with rehabilitated Yozis.
 
This is like seeing all of late 2e happen again before my eyes; it is only minutes from someone declaring Dragon-Blooded to be glorified God-Blooded and affirming their belief in a Devil-Tiger ruled Creation with rehabilitated Yozis.
pshaw

clearly the problem is that there's just not enough Dragonbloods to go around bringing peace, order, and justice to Creation

It's time for Glorious Solar Eugenics to solve everything!
 
It is time once more, to tell me just how horrible my hacks are!

This one deals with people that hadn't played any tabletop rpgs before this and were very impatient with the 'slow' pace of the game. I made it so that a three dot stunt could gain 1 exp and have examples. However, spending it can only be done on things relevant to the stunt that gave it. They marked it next to most relevant place on their charsheets, melee, acrobatics, contacts, etc; and I reduced normal exp gains at the end of a session. They still get more than they would have but not enough to break our game. Yet.
 
Automata are things, not creatures. They lack souls, which I would say defines a creature. You can have something that is not a person roll dice just fine.
So if the dreamscape tutor gem had a slightly different name, and appeared a couple pages later in the biotech section, then this would be fine?
I would also assert that Imbue Amalgam is not teaching, just duplicating knowledge, which isn't the same thing.
Duplicating knowledge into someone's head is what Training-keyword charms do. You're splitting hairs.
Order Affirming Blow is not something I would see most Solar's ever bothering with. Earlier charms, sure. But Wyld Cauldron is probably the territory of people specialized in Wyld fuckery, and Order Affirming blow a rare technique held only by people who are both experts in mutations and heavy fighters. Not a big group. Not a lot of sources there.
Yeah, that's true, there are only a few hundred solar exalted, and not literally all of them would be Primordial War veterans at that point. Only needs to be one of them, though.

Where does it say that Order-Affirming Blow is a particularly rare technique compared to other Solar charms? I'm pretty sure you just made that up.
And by rare, i meant Dreamstones with such charms that aren't a necessity for most Solars aren't gonna be common, if they were even invented in the tiny period of the First Age Auto was around for, and not sometime in the millenia after he left.
More than a century of the First Age, plus the entirety of the Primordial War.
Most probably had things like Heavy Guardian Defense, IPP, Iron kettle Body, Hypnotic Tongue technique, bread and butter charms, not high level exotic charms.
Order Affirming is so hard to learn, and requires significant investment in multiple areas, that it's not a logical purpose for any but a few.
A starting solar could take Order-Affirming Blow, with enough points left over for a basic Dodge-based paranoia combo. As a 'bad touch' effect, it lets you obliterate unshaped raksha, which are landscape-scale opponents that might otherwise be very tricky to deal with, and it lets you heal mutations inflicted by wyld exposure as well as the various Infernal charms. Prerequisites aren't too useless either, including lots of useful support and logistics effects.
Preserving knowledge is not the same as "make complex magitech automata to store information and train instantly". Books work fine for storing things. Most tech was likely focused on more useful things than an exotic teaching thing, building vehicles to travel the untamed Creation, systems to help agriculture, roads, etc. Actually practical things. The Dreamscape Tutor sounds like a late First Age thing when all the actually urgent issues had been solved.
Around Rathess, actually, they started off by building on the existing Dragon King tech: plants and crystals, not a lot of moving parts. A Dreamscape Tutor Gem doesn't have any moving parts, and crystalline structure is right there in the name, so it could plausibly be one of those first-wave designs - or even pure Dragon King tech, from before the Primordial War.

As for practicality, well, under Queen Merela, disagreements were handled by duels, and life was cheap. Again, legacy of the Dragon Kings: anybody who screws up gets reincarnated, sorry, better luck next time. Quick, efficient enlightenment and education, slotting reborn folks back into their proper roles in society, was always a high priority for the Dragon Kings for that very reason, and would be for the early First Age exalted too if they copied the attitude wholesale.
Not the same at all. The Elemental Pole of Earth is all about stability, which likely is why it's used. Quartz from Auto's pole isn't powerful in the same way. It's tied to his themes, not the themes of Creations. You'd probably have a better time trying to replace the stone with another Gaian Element, Auto's are just too different, and should remain separate.
So, you're saying that, instead of replacing one solid wyld-calcifying rock with another solid wyld-calcifying rock, for purposes of carving a statue, it makes more sense to replace it with inconstant wood, or flowing water, or outright ephemeral fire or air? The Pole of Crystal is very much about stability, order rather than chaos. Look at the mote costs for the Third Augmentation. Look at the Radiant Matrix Transmutation procedure. Look at the Glittering Desert left behind when Ikerre used the Eye.
 
It is time once more, to tell me just how horrible my hacks are!

This one deals with people that hadn't played any tabletop rpgs before this and were very impatient with the 'slow' pace of the game. I made it so that a three dot stunt could gain 1 exp and have examples. However, spending it can only be done on things relevant to the stunt that gave it. They marked it next to most relevant place on their charsheets, melee, acrobatics, contacts, etc; and I reduced normal exp gains at the end of a session. They still get more than they would have but not enough to break our game. Yet.

Pretty sure that's actually in the 2e core rules, just with the restriction that you only get exp every other three dot stunt, and/or you can only get this once per session.
 
This one deals with people that hadn't played any tabletop rpgs before this and were very impatient with the 'slow' pace of the game. I made it so that a three dot stunt could gain 1 exp and have examples. However, spending it can only be done on things relevant to the stunt that gave it. They marked it next to most relevant place on their charsheets, melee, acrobatics, contacts, etc; and I reduced normal exp gains at the end of a session. They still get more than they would have but not enough to break our game. Yet.
We've literally just doubled all Exp gain. Like, a bit more is no issue at all.
So if the dreamscape tutor gem had a slightly different name, and appeared a couple pages later in the biotech section, then this would be fine?
Yes.
Duplicating knowledge into someone's head is what Training-keyword charms do. You're splitting hairs.
Imbue Amalgam is not a Training effect, and no, it matters because the rules are different.
Where does it say that Order-Affirming Blow is a particularly rare technique compared to other Solar charms? I'm pretty sure you just made that up.
It's not, in my opinion, a logical purchase for 90% of Solars.
More than a century of the First Age, plus the entirety of the Primordial War.
Versus the millenia of much calmer time afterward, where the world was not in crisis.
A starting solar could take Order-Affirming Blow, with enough points left over for a basic Dodge-based paranoia combo. As a 'bad touch' effect, it lets you obliterate unshaped raksha, which are landscape-scale opponents that might otherwise be very tricky to deal with, and it lets you heal mutations inflicted by wyld exposure as well as the various Infernal charms. Prerequisites aren't too useless either, including lots of useful support and logistics effects.
Unshaped are not common opponents. Infernals are also very uncommon. Wyld Exposure...I guess, if you for some reason want to de-mutate a bunch of people for...reasons?
So, you're saying that, instead of replacing one solid wyld-calcifying rock with another solid wyld-calcifying rock, for purposes of carving a statue, it makes more sense to replace it with inconstant wood, or flowing water, or outright ephemeral fire or air? The Pole of Crystal is very much about stability, order rather than chaos. Look at the mote costs for the Third Augmentation. Look at the Radiant Matrix Transmutation procedure. Look at the Glittering Desert left behind when Ikerre used the Eye.
The point is that mixing Gaian influences and Autochthonian influences is not advisable. Crystal is not Earth, and is not interchangeable with it, because they are basally not the same, and should not be used as the same for people's convenience.
 
The point is that mixing Gaian influences and Autochthonian influences is not advisable.
Crystal is not Earth, and is not interchangeable with it, because they are basally not the same, and should not be used as the same for people's convenience.
Specifically;
Earth
Assocations: center, hardness, the color white, white jade, willpower, balance
Crystal
Assocations: Enlightenment, serenity, knowledge, divination, inspiration (Scholars)
 
This is like seeing all of late 2e happen again before my eyes; it is only minutes from someone declaring Dragon-Blooded to be glorified God-Blooded and affirming their belief in a Devil-Tiger ruled Creation with rehabilitated Yozis.
That's insane! Just imagine the repercussions if the Yozi were freed... Like how would The Unconquered Sun and the Maiden of Endings have their poké-Yozi duels?
 
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It is also worth mentioning that the Autochthonian element of Crystal has no connotations to the Wyld prior to 2e, and even then, the 2e context is only in the realm of a single Charm and one questionably-broken Protocol. Which isn't that great a reference point considering the dog's breakfast the 2e book made of the Alchemicals Charm chapter.

By way of contrast, Industrial Survival Frame is the Charm in question, and it costs 6m (+2m for additional copies) Indefinite commitment to provide immunity to one Autochthonian element, and Crystal is the version which functions identically to Integrity-Protecting Prana. (Element)-Inured Frame is the 1e version it is derived from, which costs 5m for each activation (uncommitted) and lasts a full day, while every single version of that Charm grants Wyld-immunity and natural stability out to a range of 2 yards past the character.

The implication being, projecting the essence of Autochthonian elements Themselves is a wyld-repellant, not simply Crystal itself.
 
Staff Notice: Spaghetti Posting Warning
It's not, in my opinion, a logical purchase for 90% of Solars.
So you're saying that even with a timeframe long enough that humans who weren't born yet when they started would have been dying of old age before the deadline, and access to the wealth of Heaven as well as all the exotic plunder from the Primordial War, with all that, the group of 30 solars (for whom that charm, by your own argument, IS a logical purchase), their respective lunar mates, two perfect circles of Sidereals, a proportionately enormous group of Dragon-Blooded, allied People of Adamant, and possibly even Autocthon Himself, couldn't reasonably have built a particular 2-dot artifact? Actually, if it's either crystalline or plant-based, one of the Dragon Kings with the right Path could reduce that to effectively a 1-dot. Making it plant-based biotech would also apparently resolve your concern about compatibility with the Imbue Amalgam spell.
Versus the millenia of much calmer time afterward, where the world was not in crisis.
Per the training time rules in the core book, inventing a new charm from scratch takes weeks, not decades. The Ochre Fountain Era wasn't exactly peaceful, but it was a time of prosperity and expansion during which the Exalted Host had more than enough time to explore the more tactically useful 'esoteric' possibilities of Essence 4 and build basic artifacts.
Unshaped are not common opponents. Infernals are also very uncommon. Wyld Exposure...I guess, if you for some reason want to de-mutate a bunch of people for...reasons?
Infernals (well, actual pre-yozi primordials at least) were relatively common opponents during the Primordial War, which had only recently ended, and Unshaped might have been far more common in the immediate aftermath of the Three Spheres Cataclysm, or when pushing out into the Deep Wyld or Pure Chaos when those bumped right up against the borders of the world. Lunar tattoos definitely hadn't been invented yet. If somebody slipped up and didn't keep their Shaping defenses active, wouldn't it be nice to have a backup plan, a second line of defense? An ounce of prevention is great, but any smart pharmacist will keep a few pounds of cure on the shelf too, because accidents happen.
The point is that mixing Gaian influences and Autochthonian influences is not advisable. Crystal is not Earth, and is not interchangeable with it, because they are basally not the same, and should not be used as the same for people's convenience.
I'm not talking about mixing the two, or casually swapping out one for the other, but rather designing an entirely new spell which uses Autocthonian influences to achieve a mechanically similar result.
 
So you're saying that even with a timeframe long enough that humans who weren't born yet when they started would have been dying of old age before the deadline, and access to the wealth of Heaven as well as all the exotic plunder from the Primordial War, with all that, the group of 30 solars (for whom that charm, by your own argument, IS a logical purchase), their respective lunar mates, two perfect circles of Sidereals, a proportionately enormous group of Dragon-Blooded, allied People of Adamant, and possibly even Autocthon Himself, couldn't reasonably have built a particular 2-dot artifact? Actually, if it's either crystalline or plant-based, one of the Dragon Kings with the right Path could reduce that to effectively a 1-dot. Making it plant-based biotech would also apparently resolve your concern about compatibility with the Imbue Amalgam spell.
There is 0 indication it is Dragon king tech. I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE, just stupidly unlikely. They had actual problems to solve, and this would be a stupid way to use resources that were much less plentiful than in say the Era of Dreams.
Per the training time rules in the core book, inventing a new charm from scratch takes weeks, not decades. The Ochre Fountain Era wasn't exactly peaceful, but it was a time of prosperity and expansion during which the Exalted Host had more than enough time to explore the more tactically useful 'esoteric' possibilities of Essence 4 and build basic artifacts.
Again, they had actual problems. Later on they were much more inclined to build things that were convenient instead of an absolute necessity. They could have, but really shouldn't have.
If somebody slipped up and didn't keep their Shaping defenses active, wouldn't it be nice to have a backup plan, a second line of defense? An ounce of prevention is great, but any smart pharmacist will keep a few pounds of cure on the shelf too, because accidents happen.
If you are going into Wyld bullshit as a Celestial, you can probably handle your mutation issues for yourself. No Solar charms necessary. DBs less so, but DB were also expendable.
 
Supposing that everyone else in the setting is at least as intelligent as we all are, if it were possible to start sticking mortals with a bunch of Solar charms, why were they not doing so en mass?

Amalgamations are VASTLY more expendable than Solars who can cast the spell and are much more susceptible to commands than other Solars or even DB. It would take much less time and be far cheaper to make Tiger Warrior Amalgams with paranoia combos to fight instead of all the other Exalted.

If the spell is this easy to use, Amalgams should have been the root of the setting. Explore esoteric charms by giving them to amalgams first. Who needs DB when any mortal can be a young solar equivalent in a few months? And so it goes.

As there are numerous people who had both the understanding of the spell and reasons to use it extensively. The fact that it was not used like this suggests it cannot be.



There is also the fact that the Tutor Gem is essentially a fancy book rather than something that knows Solar charms.
 
How to save Autocthonia from Gremlin Syndrome
Without breaching the Seal of Eight Divinities
Using only non-unique assets from the canonical 2e setting
Overly complicated. If you're gonna cheese....
It's actually canon from CoCD Autochtonia that Autobot recruited a bunch of gods and elementals before leaving for Elsewhere/Nowhere.
Find one with Divine(Ability)Subordination in Medicine.

Skips all the Order-Affirming Blow shenanigans.
 
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Overly complicated.
It's actually canon from CoCD Autochtonia that Autobot recruited a bunch of gods and elementals before leaving for Elsewhere/Nowhere.
Find one with Divine(Ability)Subordination in Medicine.

Skips all the Order-Affirming Blow shenanigans.
I'd say that if he did take a big heap of other spirits with him when he fled, and he's still dying anyway, those medicine gods weren't up to the task of treating Autochthon's illness.

Honestly, the Void contaminant seems like it might be better described as "Autochthon is the only Primordial that needs food, water, and air (equivalents)" than "Autochthon has cancer".

When a human starves, their body starts turning on itself, cannibalizing its own tissues for nourishment and ceasing various secondary biological processes to ensure the major organs can survive. The Void seems to work just fine* as a Primordial manifestation of how our own physiology steadily whittles away more and more of itself (and accepts lower and lower standards of functionality) when deprived of nourishment - it's just that because we're dealing with starvation as experienced by the only Primordial that can starve, it takes a particularly bizarre and bombastic form.

Even if it is closer to "starvation" than "cancer", the Void is still way too weird and esoteric for even a Celestial-tier god to be able to apply their supernatural toolkit, because that toolkit was designed for use with Creation's various phenomena.


* Regardless of whether we're using the Tetsuo the Iron Conenberg version from 2e canon, or @Dif's reinterpretation of it as the also-rans, obsolete paradigms, and prototype schematics that stand in contrast to the tried-and-tested standardized techniques practiced by the Sodalities.
 
Supposing that everyone else in the setting is at least as intelligent as we all are, if it were possible to start sticking mortals with a bunch of Solar charms, why were they not doing so en mass?

Amalgamations are VASTLY more expendable than Solars who can cast the spell and are much more susceptible to commands than other Solars or even DB. It would take much less time and be far cheaper to make Tiger Warrior Amalgams with paranoia combos to fight instead of all the other Exalted.

If the spell is this easy to use, Amalgams should have been the root of the setting. Explore esoteric charms by giving them to amalgams first. Who needs DB when any mortal can be a young solar equivalent in a few months? And so it goes.

As there are numerous people who had both the understanding of the spell and reasons to use it extensively. The fact that it was not used like this suggests it cannot be.
I addressed the paranoia-combo issue already, with the existing 'native Flaw of Invulnerability' rule.

Creating sorcerous amalgams requires hours of work, per subject, from a celestial circle sorcerer who presumably has other useful stuff they could be doing. There's also the cost of the nonreusable gems. Once you've done that, they won't blend in with the general population, and they can't learn any more charms without undoing the whole thing and starting over. It could be a decent strategy for making supersoldiers, but not overwhelmingly superior to, say, breeding half-castes, or binding second circle demons, or building Arete-class artifical heroes - which were explicitly intended to replace DBs.
There is also the fact that the Tutor Gem is essentially a fancy book rather than something that knows Solar charms.
All it needs to be able to do is teach those charms to somebody else.
 
I addressed the paranoia-combo issue already, with the existing 'native Flaw of Invulnerability' rule.

Creating sorcerous amalgams requires hours of work, per subject, from a celestial circle sorcerer who presumably has other useful stuff they could be doing. There's also the cost of the nonreusable gems. Once you've done that, they won't blend in with the general population, and they can't learn any more charms without undoing the whole thing and starting over. It could be a decent strategy for making supersoldiers, but not overwhelmingly superior to, say, breeding half-castes, or binding second circle demons, or building Arete-class artifical heroes - which were explicitly intended to replace DBs.

All it needs to be able to do is teach those charms to somebody else.
Look, look, look.

Gems and a few hours of work are a bargain, a nearly negligible cost to the comparism of making something with solar charms.

Solar charms. Do you know how bullshit that is? Very.
 
All it needs to be able to do is teach those charms to somebody else.
ahem.

"Such traits merely indicate theoretical knowledge sufficient to instruct an Exalt capable of learning the Charm or spell in question."

The charm isn't stored in the artifact in any way that anyone can actually tap. It just is a descriptor that walks you through itself so that you don't have to work out the charm yourself and take longer to learn it.

You are defending a plan that just doesn't function the way you think it functions, unless you make custom content up. And even then, the kinds of things you have to make up and the in-game hoops you have to jump through just won't realistically happen. Nevermind how it uses aspects of the game that everyone has long since figured out were broken and bad for the setting as requirements.

Also if an exalt uses Imbue Amalgam once a year to make a bespoke assistant with a handful of solar charms, they have made an investment in infrastructure that blows pretty much anything else they could do in that time frame out of the water. Strictly speaking, in the First Age the blessed isle should have been strip mined down as far as possible for the needed stone for every Solar, Lunar and Sidereal capable of casting it, so they could expand their retinue with amazingly capable assistants. Thats how good it is, and that's why people say it's not a good spell for the setting.
 
Since a bunch of folks in this thread expressed interest last time I posted:

Horizon Break, my weird post post-apocalyptic tactical fantasy RPG, has had a ton of tweaks, some major, some minor, since last time. In particular I've iterated a whole bunch on the setting presentation (now featuring steampunk mage-engineers who can create and maintain devices with their MINDS while rocket-boot-assisted gliding, Inigo Montoya: the archetype, and undead that are genuinely weird and scary), and am looking for feedback on what works, what doesn't, and what people think I should add. For folks who have read the crunch (which has also gone through a ton of iterations), I have a few ideas for subsystems I would also love feedback on.

You can find the current draft here.
 
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