General Exalted Thread

[strange_person]

He doesn't negate the destiny just by existing in the area where a curse has been laid because he has essence 3+, he just isn't affected by it. RAW Sidereal NPCs can demolish any social infrastructure without risk from their Creation-bound enemies because all of the levers (censure, divine enemies) that make it difficult for PCs to do that are hidden away where the Creation-bound PCs don't have easy access to them for manipulation.

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You are factually incorrect on both these points. I already posted a relevant quote for the first; there are further mechanics on the same page for increases to the essence burden removing successes from Duration, meaning the destiny would end early. As for the second, even without physical access to Yu-Shan or supernatural tracking or unwise pacts or any of the sundry other capabilities a sufficiently motivated empire-building exalt could reasonably bring to bear, any human anywhere can send a message to any god - even one they have no specific knowledge of! - with a simple Charisma + Performance roll for prayer. This is noted as a major practical limiting factor on page 210:

Sidereals are expected to limit the number of people their destinies affect, keep those destinies short-lived and keep their effects subtle and infrequent enough that most people don't think to ask the gods for redress.

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Creation is an animistic setting. Religion is not a purely cultural factor, but a strategic necessity on the same order as aqueducts or crop rotation or paved roads. How has this hypothetical ill-moniker'd Dawn managed to secure any significant territorial gains without also being noticed by the patron gods of conquered cities, or directing at least some brief perfunctory reverence toward the relevant directional god of war, or otherwise making contact with divine politics?

 

[Jon Chung]

That is a gross oversimplification. Most games do not lead to PCs leading anything. Hell, we don't even maintain a party in our games, much less a polity. We play fixers for other people, sorting out spirit disagreements to centralize power in a reasonable LED of Wood in the West, restoring Swan Dragon's memory so he can quietly sabotage the dead in the south with the power of talking to people respectfully, disabling the Penitent forever to deny it to everyone. Things like this. Long term goal we are slwoly progressing on is fixing Raksi's crazy enough she let's people use the resources of Sperimin.

I really, really hate the idea you need to run anything in Exalted. It's stupid and denies the roaming adventure archetype that's vastly more appropriate for many games. Especially games where none of the characters have ever been any sort of leader.

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My view here is that it's perfectly fine if you want to play the wandering adventurer-hero if that's your ideal mode of play, but the game system should not enforce this by giving your NPC opponents stealth nuclear ICBMs, which are absolutely fantastic at destroying player cities and not very useful for the purposes of sniping murder-hobos. If Sidereals are given the ability to deploy WMDs by astrology, who are they going to use those on and how will this affect the course of gameplay?

tl;dr: You wanna play Conan the Adventurer instead of Conan King of Aquilonia, fine, but Conan King of Aquilonia shouldn't get fucked by orbital laser cannons in the prologue of Phoenix on the Sword. So don't give Thulsa Doom or Thoth Amon orbital laser cannons.

 

[Salty]

My view here is that it's perfectly fine if you want to play the wandering adventurer-hero if that's your ideal mode of play, but the game system should not enforce this by giving your NPC opponents stealth nuclear ICBMs, which are absolutely fantastic at destroying player cities and not very useful for the purposes of sniping murder-hobos. If Sidereals are given the ability to deploy WMDs by astrology, who are they going to use those on and how will this affect the course of gameplay?

tl;dr: You wanna play Conan the Adventurer instead of Conan King of Aquilonia, fine, but Conan King of Aquilonia shouldn't get fucked by orbital laser cannons in the prologue of Phoenix on the Sword. So don't give Thulsa Doom or Thoth Amon orbital laser cannons.

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This is the part where, not having been around for the only time Sidereals were relevant and their writing made any goddamn sense (i.e. 1E), I interject to ask what bits of astrology allow for use of it to be WMDs.

 

[Jon Chung]

This is the part where, not having been around for the only time Sidereals were relevant and their writing made any goddamn sense (i.e. 1E), I interject to ask what bits of astrology allow for use of it to be WMDs.

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It can't be used as a WMD, this entire tangent is about a proposed addition of astrological WMDs, which is in every way a terrible idea.

The Sidereal 1E RAW WMD is a dude standing on air really high up for a great vantage point with Essence 7 and Grandmother Spider Mastery, not astrology.

Also, their writing never made any goddamn sense, or they wouldn't be able to do the above amusing kick.

 

[strange_person]

My view here is that it's perfectly fine if you want to play the wandering adventurer-hero if that's your ideal mode of play, but the game system should not enforce this by giving your NPC opponents stealth nuclear ICBMs, which are absolutely fantastic at destroying player cities and not very useful for the purposes of sniping murder-hobos. If Sidereals are given the ability to deploy WMDs by astrology, who are they going to use those on and how will this affect the course of gameplay?

tl;dr: You wanna play Conan the Adventurer instead of Conan King of Aquilonia, fine, but Conan King of Aquilonia shouldn't get fucked by orbital laser cannons in the prologue of Phoenix on the Sword. So don't give Thulsa Doom or Thoth Amon orbital laser cannons.

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Elder sidereals potentially have access to many non-astrological WMDs already. The Aerial Legion, Thousand-Forged Dragons and other geomantic tricks, various 5-dot artifact weapons, particularly the single-use effects. If the Empress wasn't on vacation, somebody could ask her politely to use the Realm Defense Grid. Even without that, any 250-year-old DB with Breeding 5 could learn As In The Beginning to lay down cataclysms by personal power alone. Many sapphire-circle sorcery spells could devastate a city, to say nothing of the adamant circle, or necromancy. A team of as few as 13 emerald circle sorcerers, armed only with what may well be the third most widely-known spell (Summon Elemental) could straightforwardly end all human civilization, if they managed to coordinate simultaneous action over reasonably long ranges (with, say, a heliograph tower) and had no regard for their own lives.

There are in-setting reasons why such things aren't happening all the time. If the ST decides that those reasons don't apply, starts the first session with "Okay, you all meet in a teahouse. Take a few minutes to get to know each other. Now, roll Join Battle, because while you were talking, an akuma down in the wine cellar was casting Total Annihilation, and no you don't get a roll to notice that before it's too late because of Soundless Action Prana, while an elder sidereal five miles away uses Grandmother Spider Mastery supplemented by Pattern Spider Touch and an auspicious success from the Fateful Martial Arts Excellency to disintegrate everyone and everything that has a DV of 20 or less and LOS to the southern horizon, including the walls of buildings," or anything equivalently abrupt, well, that's an OOC problem which rules patches and setting revisions won't ever really be sufficient to fix.

I say, go ahead and give Thulsa Doom a laser cannon, just make sure you also give him a good reason to save it for special occasions, and give Conan some straightforward options for preventing the situation from escalating to that point. De-escalation doesn't have to be pleasant, or even particularly easy for the character: stealth, retreat covered by a sacrificial rearguard, taking hostages, surrender under humiliating terms, whatever, so long as it's clear to the player that such options are legitimately possible. Discovery of, and development of strategies to counter, some major enemy's Secret Ultimate Weapon is a classic story arc, so why strangle it in it's crib by saying that ultimate weapons are categorically forbidden?

 

[Monotov]

The Aerial Legion

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Does not answer to the Sids. At all. In fact, it's leadership dislikes them.

Thousand-Forged Dragons

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To which they also have no access. Hu Dai might have some, but good luck convincing her to let them into Creation, or activate any there.

any 250-year-old DB with Breeding 5 could learn As In The Beginning to lay down cataclysms by personal power alone.

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Which is obvious as fuck and takes time in which they can be stopped. Also, there are very few 250 year old DB's, fewer with War 7 E7. Like, probably a count below 20, and some are probably decrepit, others never bother to learn the charm. There might be 10 people capable of using the charm in realistic circumstances in all of Creation. A Thousand Forged Dragon is a more realistic threat.

Many sapphire-circle sorcery spells could devastate a city,

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Not really. Torrential Cascade is the only potential large-scale damage dealer. Wheel of the Turning Heavens could transfix a city, but if anyone is hurt it ends, so less good for destroying a city. Summon Warstrider is a big weapon, but again not an existential threat to a city in any rapid timeframe. Sapphire Circle has a lot of nice utility, and not much cataclysmic destruction. 2CDs are your only common option, but again, most are not city killers in any rapid frame of time.

A team of as few as 13 emerald circle sorcerers, armed only with what may well be the third most widely-known spell (Summon Elemental) could straightforwardly end all human civilization, if they managed to coordinate simultaneous action over reasonably long ranges (with, say, a heliograph tower) and had no regard for their own lives.

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If you think this does not result in an immediate massive response from everyone you are an idiot. If you think there are no other safeguards you are an idiot. This is not going to happen.

 

[Broken25]

Not really. Torrential Cascade is the only potential large-scale damage dealer. Wheel of the Turning Heavens could transfix a city, but if anyone is hurt it ends, so less good for destroying a city. Summon Warstrider is a big weapon, but again not an existential threat to a city in any rapid timeframe. Sapphire Circle has a lot of nice utility, and not much cataclysmic destruction. 2CDs are your only common option, but again, most are not city killers in any rapid frame of time.

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Well, you can kill a city with River of blood.

Although that's terrestrial sorcery, not sapphire.

 

[Accelerator]

Not really. Torrential Cascade is the only potential large-scale damage dealer. Wheel of the Turning Heavens could transfix a city, but if anyone is hurt it ends, so less good for destroying a city. Summon Warstrider is a big weapon, but again not an existential threat to a city in any rapid timeframe. Sapphire Circle has a lot of nice utility, and not much cataclysmic destruction. 2CDs are your only common option, but again, most are not city killers in any rapid frame of time.

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Well... I suppose you could mass task bind Topen: The scorch kissed shepherds and the the mistress of sparks, then set them loose?

 

[linkhyrule5]

This is the part where, not having been around for the only time Sidereals were relevant and their writing made any goddamn sense (i.e. 1E), I interject to ask what bits of astrology allow for use of it to be WMDs.

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In 2e, a Sidereal can give Target Number buffs or debuffs to almost everything (explicitly including non-actions like crossing the street or cutting vegetables) literally everyone without Essence in a city- or city-state-sized region dones, lasting for a hundred years or more; or drain or replenish their Willpower points, or add or subtract dice. They can do this from literally anyone in Creation or Heaven, and there's basically no way to trace it back without access to Heaven and the Loom.

Granted, they're usually pretty small de/buffs, but with that kind of coverage and depth and scale, does it really matter?

 

[Unbanshee]

Granted, they're usually pretty small de/buffs, but with that kind of coverage and depth and scale, does it really matter?

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debuffs stack! imagine a city cursed to have to make a diff 3 roll with a TN of 9 when they try to cut vegetables?

 

[landcollector]

debuffs stack! imagine a city cursed to have to make a diff 3 roll with a TN of 9 when they try to cut vegetables?

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At best, they fail and slowly starve. At worst, a sizeable portion of said city manages to kill themselves (via botches) while trying to make meals (not unlike Sims, come to think of it...).

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

At best, they fail and slowly starve. At worst, a sizeable portion of said city manages to kill themselves (via botches) while trying to make meals (not unlike Sims, come to think of it...).

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Or they eventually give up and are forced to radically change their diet....that actually sounds like an interesting story hook.

 

[Accelerator]

Or they eventually give and are forced to radically change their diet....that actually sounds like an interesting story hook.

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So... salads?

 

[Talkkno]

Not really. Torrential Cascade is the only potential large-scale damage dealer. Wheel of the Turning Heavens could transfix a city, but if anyone is hurt it ends, so less good for destroying a city. Summon Warstrider is a big weapon, but again not an existential threat to a city in any rapid timeframe. Sapphire Circle has a lot of nice utility, and not much cataclysmic destruction. 2CDs are your only common option, but again, most are not city killers in any rapid frame of time.

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Didn't the Sidreals use Catina of empty voices to destroy a city supporting the Bull of the North?

 

[Monotov]

Didn't the Sidreals use Catina of empty voices to destroy a city supporting the Bull of the North?

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Not sure. I guess you...could? It would take a lot of moving though, and be pretty obvious and not instant. It's area of effect is pretty small. You could have multiple casters, but well, CCS.

 

[ichypa]

debuffs stack! imagine a city cursed to have to make a diff 3 roll with a TN of 9 when they try to cut vegetables?

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...A city where everyone eats vegetables whole, or mashed/ground up or something?

 

[Accelerator]

...A city where everyone eats vegetables whole, or mashed/ground up or something?

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.... mashed potatoes?

 

[ichypa]

.... mashed potatoes?

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Creamed corn. Creamed Cabbage. Tomato sauce. Mashed Squash. Asparagus. Pickles/Cucumbers. Carrots. Turnips.

Lots of vegetables can be eaten without cutting them, though a long term astrological curse like that could, like Sydonai said, cause some interesting cultural quirks.

 

[Phigment]

Not sure. I guess you...could? It would take a lot of moving though, and be pretty obvious and not instant. It's area of effect is pretty small. You could have multiple casters, but well, CCS.

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My recollection is that it was a team of sidereals using pre-cast spells stored in artifacts.

Plus, it was 1e, when the spell might have worked a bit differently.

 

[Jon Chung]

Elder sidereals potentially have access to many non-astrological WMDs already. The Aerial Legion, Thousand-Forged Dragons and other geomantic tricks, various 5-dot artifact weapons, particularly the single-use effects. If the Empress wasn't on vacation, somebody could ask her politely to use the Realm Defense Grid. Even without that, any 250-year-old DB with Breeding 5 could learn As In The Beginning to lay down cataclysms by personal power alone. Many sapphire-circle sorcery spells could devastate a city, to say nothing of the adamant circle, or necromancy. A team of as few as 13 emerald circle sorcerers, armed only with what may well be the third most widely-known spell (Summon Elemental) could straightforwardly end all human civilization, if they managed to coordinate simultaneous action over reasonably long ranges (with, say, a heliograph tower) and had no regard for their own lives.

There are in-setting reasons why such things aren't happening all the time. If the ST decides that those reasons don't apply, starts the first session with "Okay, you all meet in a teahouse. Take a few minutes to get to know each other. Now, roll Join Battle, because while you were talking, an akuma down in the wine cellar was casting Total Annihilation, and no you don't get a roll to notice that before it's too late because of Soundless Action Prana, while an elder sidereal five miles away uses Grandmother Spider Mastery supplemented by Pattern Spider Touch and an auspicious success from the Fateful Martial Arts Excellency to disintegrate everyone and everything that has a DV of 20 or less and LOS to the southern horizon, including the walls of buildings," or anything equivalently abrupt, well, that's an OOC problem which rules patches and setting revisions won't ever really be sufficient to fix.

I say, go ahead and give Thulsa Doom a laser cannon, just make sure you also give him a good reason to save it for special occasions, and give Conan some straightforward options for preventing the situation from escalating to that point. De-escalation doesn't have to be pleasant, or even particularly easy for the character: stealth, retreat covered by a sacrificial rearguard, taking hostages, surrender under humiliating terms, whatever, so long as it's clear to the player that such options are legitimately possible. Discovery of, and development of strategies to counter, some major enemy's Secret Ultimate Weapon is a classic story arc, so why strangle it in it's crib by saying that ultimate weapons are categorically forbidden?

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Given the context of this discussion: no. No, this kind of logic leads to the utter stupidity of the GM having to come up with some dumbshit reason why Bob the Transcendent Overgod Before Whom Regular Godlike Entities Cower In Fear with the Pun-Pun Infinite Ascension Loop under his belt hasn't one-shot your player party from the future before they complete character creation, repeat for every campaign-ending combo enemy opposition can trivially access. You don't get to handwave away the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick with "maybe Ketchup has a reason to not use it, so it's fine if this exists" more than once IME.

Don't write broken shit. It's not the GM's job to try to reconcile ridiculous bullshit powers or combinations thereof with the setting still existing and the game premise being halfway plausible, I'm buying premade game systems and sourcebooks so I can outsource as much work as possible to pare the time-cost of running games down to something reasonable. Every unit of time consumed with having to compensate for crap like this or fucking paranoia combat degeneracy or whatever is a unit of time utterly wasted, which gains one nothing more than a desire to not buy products from that company and/or writer again. If I see that in a PDF, I shrug and don't buy the damn game, then tell everyone I know in their target demographic not to buy the damn game, purely out of spite for having wasted my time.

 

[Accelerator]

Don't write broken shit. It's not the GM's job to try to reconcile ridiculous bullshit powers with the setting still existing and the game premise being halfway plausible. If I see that in a PDF, I shrug and don't buy the damn game.

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On the other hand, though, even if half the game is total broken bullshit, the other half may be awesome enough to actually warrant buying it.

 

[Jon Chung]

On the other hand, though, even if half the game is total broken bullshit, the other half may be awesome enough to actually warrant buying it.

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This is of course subjective, but if half the game is broken shit, personally speaking, you need to rewrite pretty much the entire thing to get something that isn't broken.

Is that worth my time, either to fix the damn thing or to run a broken game and hotfix every single retarded bug on the fly as I'm running it? I don't think it is. I have a Steam backlog, and Settlers of Catan is a thing that exists.

 

[strange_person]

Does not answer to the Sids. At all. In fact, it's leadership dislikes them.

To which they also have no access. Hu Dai might have some, but good luck convincing her to let them into Creation, or activate any there.

Which is obvious as fuck and takes time in which they can be stopped. Also, there are very few 250 year old DB's, fewer with War 7 E7. Like, probably a count below 20, and some are probably decrepit, others never bother to learn the charm. There might be 10 people capable of using the charm in realistic circumstances in all of Creation. A Thousand Forged Dragon is a more realistic threat.

Not really. Torrential Cascade is the only potential large-scale damage dealer. Wheel of the Turning Heavens could transfix a city, but if anyone is hurt it ends, so less good for destroying a city. Summon Warstrider is a big weapon, but again not an existential threat to a city in any rapid timeframe. Sapphire Circle has a lot of nice utility, and not much cataclysmic destruction. 2CDs are your only common option, but again, most are not city killers in any rapid frame of time.

If you think this does not result in an immediate massive response from everyone you are an idiot. If you think there are no other safeguards you are an idiot. This is not going to happen.

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So I take it you agree that all those methods of mass destruction have corresponding warning signs, countermeasures, and/or personal risks? And further that the Sidereals don't have anywhere close to unlimited access to the resources of Heaven, because many celestial gods would gladly seize any reasonable excuse to harass or prosecute them?

Sidereal astrology works by modifying the Loom of Fate, which is how the gods plan Creation's future. Thaumaturgical astrology works by reading those designs in the night sky, which is a 'display screen' for the Loom. Therefore, mortal astrologers can - and for extreme modifiers, probably will - notice incoming astrological curses or blessings, even if they don't . Warning signs, check.

More essence users becoming directly involved could end the destiny early, just by the fact of their involvement, the "essence burden." If enough mortals pray to the gods for relief from the astrologically-induced problem, that translates directly into political pressure on the sidereals who laid the curse. Countermeasures, check.

A wide-ranging astrological effect can't activate until all the Essence 2+ folks in the area of effect have been touched by the sidereal. Gods and elementals are exempt, but only if they're obeying the laws of Heaven - rather than, say, slacking off, or extorting extra worship, as all too many of them do in this fallen Second Age. That means, if anything at all interesting is going on in the area, the destiny CANNOT be "launched from orbit" - gotta visit the site, go around shaking hands or something. As an alternative to a personal visit, there's Predestined Delivery Shaping, but that adds further delay and risk of detection. Personal risk, check.

As for examples of city-wrecking sapphire circle spells, Cantata of Empty Voices and God-Forged Champion of War were already mentioned. A warstrider can do significant harm to an urban environment by accident, surely intentional and systematic destruction would be worse. The extent to which a single second-circle demon could singlehandedly wreck an otherwise credible city in any lasting way is debatable, but someone like Gervesin or Octavian could at the very least kill a lot of people and make a long-lasting mess just by going door to door, while many others like Gumela or Vorvin-Derlin (not technically a second-circle demon but summonable by the same spell) have unpleasant effects on infrastructure and/or public morals.

There's also The Crumbling Walls (which has literally no other function), Geyser of Corrosion (which would likely require either multiple castings or strategic placement, but interrupting a major road with a caustic pit is no laughing matter from a logistical standpoint), Hideous Confusion of Tongues (it was good enough for the Tower of Babel), Magma Kraken, The Princes of the Fallen Tower (again, barely any purpose beyond large-scale demolition), Summoning the Heart of Darkness ('entire armies have slaughtered themselves'), Swift Spirit of Winged Transportation (grab an important building, drop it from a great height), Torrential Cascade (small structures destroyed outright, area may take weeks to return to normal if it ever does), and Whirlwind of Fate (insofar as it could facilitate a commando raid, arson spree, or other mundane destruction).

 

[Monotov]

So I take it you agree that all those methods of mass destruction have corresponding warning signs, countermeasures, and/or personal risks? And further that the Sidereals don't have anywhere close to unlimited access to the resources of Heaven, because many celestial gods would gladly seize any reasonable excuse to harass or prosecute them?

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I would say most are not actual threats. Because they are either rare enough to ignore, or bad at destroying cities.

Sidereal astrology works by modifying the Loom of Fate, which is how the gods plan Creation's future. Thaumaturgical astrology works by reading those designs in the night sky, which is a 'display screen' for the Loom. Therefore, mortal astrologers can - and for extreme modifiers, probably will - notice incoming astrological curses or blessings, even if they don't . Warning signs, check.

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It's not atrivial to notice, noticing can be protected against with more astrology.

More essence users becoming directly involved could end the destiny early, just by the fact of their involvement, the "essence burden." If enough mortals pray to the gods for relief from the astrologically-induced problem, that translates directly into political pressure on the sidereals who laid the curse. Countermeasures, check.

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Careful targeting can net you a group without essence users. So problem avoided with basic planning.

A wide-ranging astrological effect can't activate until all the Essence 2+ folks in the area of effect have been touched by the sidereal. Gods and elementals are exempt, but only if they're obeying the laws of Heaven - rather than, say, slacking off, or extorting extra worship, as all too many of them do in this fallen Second Age. That means, if anything at all interesting is going on in the area, the destiny CANNOT be "launched from orbit" - gotta visit the site, go around shaking hands or something. As an alternative to a personal visit, there's Predestined Delivery Shaping, but that adds further delay and risk of detection. Personal risk, check.

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Again, basic planning of targets. Target small groups without essence wielders.

Cantata of Empty Voices and God-Forged Champion of War were already mentioned.

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Neither can destroy a city without a whole bunch of castings. Cantata lacks range, a Warstriders is a really slow and inefficient tool for demolition.

A warstrider can do significant harm to an urban environment by accident,

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No, it can damage buildings. It would take consistent effort to destroy a stone structure, not just abrade or chip away at it. And a fast way of destroying a city one building at a time is not. It would take days for a major city, and the spell lasts...a scene. You might smash up a block. Not a city.

Vorvin-Derlin (not technically a second-circle demon but summonable by the same spell)

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Third*.

There's also The Crumbling Walls (which has literally no other function),

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Only destroys defensive walls, nothign else.

Geyser of Corrosion (which would likely require either multiple castings or strategic placement, but interrupting a major road with a caustic pit is no laughing matter from a logistical standpoint),

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Too small to matter on the scale of actually destroying a city on it's own. It's an annoyance in that regard, you fill in over it once it's done.

Hideous Confusion of Tongues (it was good enough for the Tower of Babel),

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Annoyance, not an actual threat.

Magma Kraken,

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Waaaaay to small to destroy even a village.

The Princes of the Fallen Tower (again, barely any purpose beyond large-scale demolition),

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Warstrider problem. Slooooooooow.

Summoning the Heart of Darkness ('entire armies have slaughtered themselves')

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Makes people afraid, not dead. No effect on buildings.

Swift Spirit of Winged Transportation (grab an important building, drop it from a great height)

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Also slow, mildly more effective than a Warstrider.

, Torrential Cascade (small structures destroyed outright, area may take weeks to return to normal if it ever does),

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Needs a water source, bad against stone buildings, otherwise okay.

Whirlwind of Fate (insofar as it could facilitate a commando raid, arson spree, or other mundane destruction).

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It ends the moment anyone in the effect is hurt. Hope you can hurt nobody in doing that, and also stop any accident in the huge area that might set it off early. Impractical as fuck.

the Sapphire circle lacks city destroying magic. None of those spells are a major threat to a city. They are annoying, or slow, of very specific. None are practical or sensible. You're better off just pitching diseased bodies over the walls.

 

[ichypa]

Wasn't there a warning literally last page about not spaghetti posting?