Distance Learning for fun and profit...

First, Max isn't an actual Nazi; he's just mouthing the words to maintain his power. Second, Max is smart enough that when someone comes up to him and tells him, "You or your people look funny at the DWU and you'll be meeting your father and sister again," he'll actually take that advice on board and stay away. Lung would feel insulted that someone thought they could tell him what he could do, and he'd immediately try to start shit.
Point of order, If you are in a position of power in a Nazi-affiliated group, ordering Nazi's to do Nazi things, without any hesitation, then you are a Nazi. Like, that WB WOG is one of the dumbest things he has written. Impurity had a lot to say about the type of people who join Nazi/Racist gangs, and none of it is pretty.
 
And even if you just join to use the dumb f...... for your own goals, that doesn't make you a better person.
 
I guess I will never be able to have Lung become a source of beneficial change for BB if people like the suggestion. Seriously, everyone seems to hate Lung to the point where redemption is impossible. People prefer giving him a high-speed bullet to the head rather than Teatime.
If you want to read something where Lung is, if not a good person than at least a reasonable dude, I'd recommend Dreaming of Foxfire.

The thing here is that the question isn't whether Lung can be redeemed or not. It's about when if when's he's told to "surrender or be destroyed" he'll scoff and take his chances in a fight. And unless the author is making him an AU element he's the type who wouldn't back down even if Alexandria showed up to beat his face in the dirt. When that happens the army won't settle for half measures and because of that everyone's debating how hard it would be to take him down when you're no longer concerned with bringing him in alive.
 
Just reread this. Still fun as all hell. And while I will admit some guilt in contributing to it, can we PLEASE stop the Lung topics. It's getting old and might even be a slight derail at this point. That said, I've been having fun reading this, and now I think I'll read about a child befriending the monsters under the bed, then about a girl and her tank, and then finally about ludicrous laughing lizards that aren't really lizards but in truth devious demonic deities. I'll be entertained for the next few day, I guarantee!
 
I doubt Lung will do anything if he realizes the kind of opposition he'd face. He knows perfectly well he can be killed if he hasn't ramped up enough, and he both won't want to be killed and won't want to tarnish his reputation by backing down; so I'd expect him to try to ignore Gravtec's existence. Lung's lasted as long as he has because he's fairly good at walking the line between building a reputation as an irresistible force, and provoking the powers-that-be into doing what's necessary to demonstrate that no, he's not invincible.

Anyways(to avoid going ITG): Who do you think will try (inadvisably) attacking Gravtec or Taylor?
Merchants are an obvious group.
Coil?
Anyone else?
Merchants: Probably, they are too dumb not to. Unless whomever Ms Scary Lady works for decides that and preemptively eliminates them.

Coil: It's practically inevitable, and he's cautious enough that they might not actually know his identity, unlike Kaiser. On the other hand, hiding in a bunker isn't that effective against people with bunker busters...and I can think of a number of ways to screw over people inside an underground facility with gravity control. From squashing everyone inside with high gravity, to using gravity to rip the whole thing out of the ground and carry it off somewhere to dismantle at leisure.

Anyone else?: Foreign governments come to mind. This technology is important enough for other governments to make serious efforts to acquire for themselves. This isn't a "nobody outside Brockton Bay will care" situation.
 
Point of order, If you are in a position of power in a Nazi-affiliated group, ordering Nazi's to do Nazi things, without any hesitation, then you are a Nazi. Like, that WB WOG is one of the dumbest things he has written. Impurity had a lot to say about the type of people who join Nazi/Racist gangs, and none of it is pretty.
To quote author A.R. Moxon:
Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.

That word is "Nazi." Nobody cares about their motives anymore.

I don't recall Wildbow ever saying that Kaiser isn't a Nazi, merely that he doesn't actually believe the ideology. He's covered by "greed" and "raw political opportunism".

(Also, people who just tolerated the Nazis, and let them get on with it were known as "Mitläufer", which means "to walk with/alongside" — which is, at best, what Purity became when she left E88)

Lung, on the other hand, follows the stereotypical Yakuza "honour". Paying deference to superiors (not applicable — he's at the top of the gang, and everyone else pays deference to him), rudimentary civility when negotiating with other gangs (as at Sohmer's Rock, and following the Unwritten Rules), staying out of other gang's main territory (but sometimes testing the edges for expansion — and this "rule" is as much to protect his own minions as anything else). When the Undersiders hit his casino, that is — by his standards — a huge insult, and a personal attack, which he has to respond to in force or lose face. If he had capes other than Oni Lee, that would have been a big sign for one of them to try and usurp control of the ABB from him.
 
The only real significant difference between Kaiser and a true believing Nazi is that a true believer would have a good chance of being irrational enough to push their luck despite being warned and get sniped.

Lung, on the other hand, follows the stereotypical Yakuza "honour". Paying deference to superiors (not applicable — he's at the top of the gang, and everyone else pays deference to him), rudimentary civility when negotiating with other gangs (as at Sohmer's Rock, and following the Unwritten Rules), staying out of other gang's main territory (but sometimes testing the edges for expansion — and this "rule" is as much to protect his own minions as anything else).
This. He isn't really a "rage dragon", that's basically his own myth-building. He's a gang lord and acts like it. He's a for-profit criminal, not a lunatic and not a literal monster incapable of reason. Not a nice man at all, but being evil doesn't make him stupid.
 
I actualy did some math on that at one point, and IIRC, you have to have around negative 30gs to pop someone upwards fast enough that he breaks the sound barrier after 1 second. Just a random factoid I thought rather amusing. ^^
That would be one hellishly short time to reach MaxQ. Of course, the question then becomes "Can Lung's skeleton stand up to Maximum Dynamic Pressure under those conditions?"

I suspect that if he doesn't become a fine red mist, he converts into a Rage Pancake before the acceleration completes itself.
 
That would be one hellishly short time to reach MaxQ. Of course, the question then becomes "Can Lung's skeleton stand up to Maximum Dynamic Pressure under those conditions?"

I suspect that if he doesn't become a fine red mist, he converts into a Rage Pancake before the acceleration completes itself.

Seeing as Lung did not instantly ramp to a level that Squished Leviathan, his ramp up is clearly not fast enough.
 
Coil: It's practically inevitable, and he's cautious enough that they might not actually know his identity, unlike Kaiser. On the other hand, hiding in a bunker isn't that effective against people with bunker busters...and I can think of a number of ways to screw over people inside an underground facility with gravity control. From squashing everyone inside with high gravity, to using gravity to rip the whole thing out of the ground and carry it off somewhere to dismantle at leisure.
Neither bunker busters or simply ripping his Bond Villain Barbie Dream House out of the ground are viable solutions, given that it's parked under downtown Brockton Bay, and the collateral damage would be unacceptably high.
 
Cue FBI grabbing Thomas Calvert after some very secretive surveillance and review over his activities. Oh and he's getting charged for tax evasion Piggot. The IRS found accounting irregularities in his taxes(most notably the Endbringer shelter construction company). Ignore the FBI agents taking him into -that van over there.- what van?
 
The European Max, white-collar day job, gets a slap on the wrist.
The Asian Kenta, full-time gang-banger, gets a bullet to the brain.
You are all fine with that and I am the one who is racist because I want Tea at the Empress Hotel in Canada.
Well, guess what, you are all racists for being with the above situation.

I regret participating in this thread.
As someone who is a target of people like Anders, shove it. Lung is not any better than Kaiser and the only difference is in how they react to pressure. Both of them deserve nothing more than a volley of 70lb AAC.
 
As someone who is a target of people like Anders, shove it. Lung is not any better than Kaiser and the only difference is in how they react to pressure. Both of them deserve nothing more than a volley of 70lb AAC.

You have proven my point regarding violence being the only available solution to any problem.
You all have broken the Pacifist. So all opponents who could compromise Taylor should receive a bullet to the head at high speeds?
I hope that when Max gathers all of his direct underlings to discuss the E88 takeover of BB, Oni Lee shows, kills all of them, and himself in one final act of loyalty to Kenta.
 
Unlike most forums, this forum defines "double posting" as "more then one post without letting others post first" rather then "exact same post twice in a row". And double posting is against the site's rules.
IIRC there's a loophole that you can double post if it's been a long time since the last post, and/or if the new post would add important information that people watching the thread might not otherwise see, but I'm not sure if it's actually mentioned in the rules.
To quote author A.R. Moxon:
...I wonder if the omission of "fear for their life" (or any equivalent of such) was deliberate or accidental. (I suppose this category might technically qualify under "convenience".)
That said, I'm not sure if the Nazis did gunpoint conversions like that (or, rather, I'm fairly sure some Communist dictatorships, and many gangs, did, but I'm not sure about the Nazis in particular; IIRC even in Worm it was more of an ABB or Coil thing).

I do vaguely recall having heard of someone who was so blatantly forced to join a particular group that when the group in question was punished that particular person was not. I don't recall enough details to be any more specific than that, however.

Regarding Max, though, as far as I'm concerned, if anything, agreeing that the Nazis are evil but actively buddying up with them anyway because it gave him more power made him worse than the usual Nazi who at least sincerely believes the rubbish they're telling.
OTOH, it also means that if/when he finds out that continuing to play a Nazi would not give him more power (as had essentially happened in this story), he is likely to stop playing a Nazi.
 
You have proven my point regarding violence being the only available solution to any problem.
You all have broken the Pacifist. So all opponents who could compromise Taylor should receive a bullet to the head at high speeds?
I hope that when Max gathers all of his direct underlings to discuss the E88 takeover of BB, Oni Lee shows, kills all of them, and himself in one final act of loyalty to Kenta.
You're missing the point of what we're saying. What we're saying is that Lung wouldn't be approached at all the way Max was because he'd see it as an insult to be retaliated against.
 
@Bobot-Man - Please keep in mind that the scenario you wish to see happen can only happen if the characters in question move away from their canonical representations. If the author plays them fairly close to Worm, All the gang leaders deserve a cranial evacuation via hi velocity slug, possibly assisted by exlplosives or incendiary charges. To paraphrase Ceasar : "<Villain> delende est."

However, the farther away you move from Canonical, the more likely Lung being reasonable (for outlying values thereof) becomes. Until Lung makes an appearance in the story, we don't know.

In the one scenario you reference (Lung and Tea time), That Lung was much removed from Canon. Likewise the reasonable versions shown in Taylor Varga, Mauling Snarks, and Scaling Up.

Even in real life, all three gang leaders would be destined for multiple lifetimes in prison if they ever made it to trial. Sometimes, criminals are just too dangerous to try to bring to trial. Bonny & Clyde were considered such in the 1920's.
 
You have proven my point regarding violence being the only available solution to any problem.
You all have broken the Pacifist. So all opponents who could compromise Taylor should receive a bullet to the head at high speeds?
I hope that when Max gathers all of his direct underlings to discuss the E88 takeover of BB, Oni Lee shows, kills all of them, and himself in one final act of loyalty to Kenta.
Brockton Bay's problems can't be resolved until the Villains are removed or suppressed because they'd fight the cure. They depend on the city being a hellhole and actively work to further degrade it.
Fine, fine, biggaton Kenta to death. Nobody would really miss his section of BB anyway.
Max can take over BB because he knows when to leave something alone when he is told to.

Does that sound just OK?
Are you even reading what we're writing, or are you just mauling a strawman? Fuck Kaiser. Fuck Lung. Fuck all the other Gang Villains. They've all made their beds and should be forced to lie in them.
 
Brockton Bay's problems can't be resolved until the Villains are removed or suppressed because they'd fight the cure. They depend on the city being a hellhole and actively work to further degrade it.

Are you even reading what we're writing, or are you just mauling a strawman? Fuck Kaiser. Fuck Lung. Fuck all the other Gang Villains. They've all made their beds and should be forced to lie in them.
They're not reading anything from what we're writing but what they want to. I'd say we're arguing with a brick wall, but I feel like the brick wall would listen.
 
Cue FBI grabbing Thomas Calvert after some very secretive surveillance and review over his activities. Oh and he's getting charged for tax evasion Piggot. The IRS found accounting irregularities in his taxes(most notably the Endbringer shelter construction company). Ignore the FBI agents taking him into -that van over there.- what van?
Why would the FBI or any other federal agency be even aware of Calvert? Calvert will do everything shady in a discarded timeline and leave no tracks. PRT, the experts on parahumans aren't aware of him, the FBI doesn't have any more competency in this area then they do. Neither do the ones who care more, DIA would be the most involved for this issue though. As for the IRS, everyone knows not to cross them so doubt Calvert has. IRS doesn't care that what you do is illegal, just that you pay any taxes due. I think Cauldron is aware of what is going on, and want it to continue, and they have warned Calvert off.
As someone who is a target of people like Anders, shove it. Lung is not any better than Kaiser and the only difference is in how they react to pressure. Both of them deserve nothing more than a volley of 70lb AAC.
The expectation that federal agencies and the military are going to engage in extra-legal executions of Americans on American territory is laughable. What Anders and Lung deserve is legal due process, arrest and trial, and if convicted, punishment. The trial in absentia that results in a kill order death sentence hasn't happened for either but that is the only real threat that can legally be made to them.
 
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