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[DISCONTINUED] In the Beginning, There Was Man (WH40k x SC)

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DarthThrawn said:
The solution, then, is to assign 2 to Malcador and have our Space Gods officially adopt him into the family as Space Jesus, allowing us to add 3+5+2 and one-up Tzeentch's 9 with our own collective 10.

That, or, y'know, just five 'em both.
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Dont you know nothing the Emperor is both SPACE God and SPACE Jesus. Malcador could be SPACE Chuck Norris?:D
 
Ruirk said:
This discussion is kind of showing that we need to take a bit more time towards refining or recreating the actual lore's and legends of the Imperial Faith for easier reading. We've done a lot in getting the Eldar and Ynnead in the Imperial canon and getting the Emperor to be seen as the Omniessiah, but it shows that we still have a lot to go over.
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True; we're still working on it.

Ruirk said:
If we are worried about them having to share a number, however that would work, then just use 10.
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Icipall said:
Malcador is Space Moses.
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Well, according to the table in my last post, 10 is symbolic of "Testimony; Law and responsibility" -- which sounds much more like Malcador who is the Emperor's Sigilite (testimony) , First Lord (law), and Emperor's Regent (responsibility).

Ruirk said:
Makes me think that sending Missionaries out isn't the best option just yet.
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I'm not sure -- is numerology an important pillar of the Imperial Creed?
If it's not a big thing then it shouldn't really matter at this point in the game.
 
Krain said:
But Adam and Ynnead are also individuals, with their own themes.
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From Ends...
torrmercury said:
"Let this be the Alliance of Men and Eldar, forever more."

Before you are able to process your shock, you gasp as your soul fills with Ynnead's gift.

After recovering from the gift's excitement, you give your own gift to her as you also declare:

"Let this be the Alliance of Men and Eldar, forever more."

As your words ring in the Empyrean, they echo with Ynnead's and reverberate. The promise ties your souls together in a psychic link, the likes of which have not been seen since the days before the Fall of the Eldar.


(The Emperor gains trait Linked: You have made a pact to revive and ally with the Eldar. Breaking this pact may have severe repercussions on your soul.)

(Ynnead gains trait Linked: She has made a pact to aid and ally with humanity. Breaking this pact may have severe repercussions on her soul.)
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They are Linked through Their Souls and because of this, the Eldar and Humanity are considered one. They might as well be One Being if we're talking about recognition in the Warp.

DarthThrawn said:
The solution, then, is to assign 2 to Malcador and have our Space Gods officially adopt him into the family as Space Jesus, allowing us to add 3+5+2 and one-up Tzeentch's 9 with our own collective 10.

That, or, y'know, just five 'em both.
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That won't work I believe, Malcador still has the Soul of a Human.
 
Shark8 said:
I'm not sure -- is numerology an important pillar of the Imperial Creed?
If it's not a big thing then it shouldn't really matter at this point in the game.
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It's debatable. Numbers are oddly enough extremely important to Chaos, for whatever reason. This is the sort of thing that could be useful for us because it gives the idea that we can do something akin to Imperial Sorcery or Words of Power. The biggest being that it's a number that followers of the Sovereigns can use to communicate with each other with like a cipher or something.

The other thing is that humans, for whatever reason, really like numbers attached to things. Might as well just do the most dirt easy thing in a religion and just attach some numbers and make it sound important. I mean look at Christianity (the Holy Trinity, the Four Horsemen, 12 Apostles, 10 Commandments, 666, and oddly enough the number 21 which to herald the return of Jesus)
 
Honestly, half the reason I like the 5+5 option is because most usages of the Chaos gods' associated numbers is in the practice of ritual sorcery, and the number five in that context brings to mind the typical five pointed star pentacle, as well as the five standard psychic disciplines, and I can't help but imagine a future organization of Imperial ritualist psykers doing crazy shit.
 
Honestly, I think sacred numbers are actually a bad idea for the Sovereigns. A) we want to distinguish them from the Chaos Gods as much as possible, and B) using specific numbers could get limiting. We want to be both opposite and adaptable.

Also, it seems like it should be possible to reduce the power of Chaos over its associated symbols with enough focus/belief, which should be the sort of thing we're aiming for.

It might just be my notion, but I feel like it should be possible for humans/any other species that can fuel Chaos to steal power back from Chaos. (I have no idea if that's at all feasible in this quest, it's just my 40k headcanon.)
 
KnightDisciple said:
I believe the idea is to intentionally associate them with specific numbers, to counter the number-association of the Chaos Gods.

I'm of the mindset that says "screw whatever numbers the CG own we're more awesome and can claim whatever number we want", by I tend to be of a mindset that allows for and encourages redemption or the like anyways (not for the CG themselves but on a more conceptual level, in this case).
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qsurf said:
KnightDisciple has it right.

It feels like we need as much protection (conceptually anyways) against the Chaos Gods as we can get, and I was thinking numbers were a good start since *points at primarch and legion number shenenigans above* that. It's uncanny how during the Great Crusade after the 20 Legions were reduced to 18 (multiple of nine) so much plotting and secret-keeping took place that eventually blew up in everyone's faces and handed Chaos their biggest victory until the Final Black Crusade. So I was thinking we need some kind of protection against that kind of thing (in case said manipulation wasn't the product of my imagination) in future.
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Well, here's my proposal:

# Chaos God Biblical Number Meaning Imperial Association Reasoning
6 Slannesh Weakness of man; sin; Evils of Satan Aurora Slanash's hedonism and the biblical meaning tie together well; Aurora's sainthood would therefore have the implication that the 'thirst' could be sated.
7 Nurgle Completeness and perfection Ordo Mechanicus Nurgle's corruption stands well-contrasted by this biblical meaning; the Ordo Mechanicus's Quest for Knowledge is a quest for completion; their desire to improve-to-the-max is striving for perfection.
8 Khorne New beginning/birth/creation Ynnaed Goddess of death/rebirth; paired against Khorn implies those he kills might be reborn -- and thus his work futile.
9 Tzeentch Finality/divine-completeness Ecclesiarchy Setting up the Ecclesiarchy as "divinely complete" negates the need for change; it could also wrest away trust/happiness/aspiration/protection/will from Tzeentch.
10   Testimony, law, responsibility Malcador He's the Emperor's Sigilite (testimony), First Lord (law), and Regent (responsibility).
11 Malal Disorder, chaos and judgment Adam Associating Adam w/ this number as a story of how he saved the disordered-impirum from chaos and brought his judgment effectively nukes Malal's fractiousness/dissent as something already judged/fixed/unified.
13   Apostasy; depravity and rebellion Pre-Exodus Imperium The degenerate state of the Imperium.
19   Faith Adam + Ynnaed They have faith in the Imperium, the Imperium has faith in them -- also, they are the object of faith for the Ecclisarchy.
40   Trials; Probation; Testings The Exodus proper  
53   Ssanctification of the human nature The time between the Exodus and retaking our home universe. The addition of 13 and 40.
100   Election; Children of the promise The Eldar We promised to see them reborn.
153   Overflow of blessing / Sons of God The Imperium The addition of men (13+40) and Eldar (100)
600   Warfare Imperial equivalent of "War Department"  
Any suggestions for Jaghtai, Corvus, Leona, Gorehowl? Others?
 
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Personally, I think the Imperium's stance on numerological warp bullshit should be along the lines of "that's bullshit, their gods are shit and let me show you why" and then they turn the ritual site into ruins and all the heretics in it and it's vicinity into corpses. Possibly atomized corpses.
 
I mean I think there should be something we could set up as a symbol for members of our pantheon.
Just not sure numerology would be what we go with.

I mean, we do have one fairly potent sign of the Imperium already, in the Aquila.
 
Krain said:
I mean I think there should be something we could set up as a symbol for members of our pantheon.
Just not sure numerology would be what we go with.

I mean, we do have one fairly potent sign of the Imperium already, in the Aquila.
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The Eldar symbol is an eye, right? We superimpose the Aquila over the eye, stylize them a bit so one isn't overshadowing the other too much and presto, new symbol for the pantheon.

Maybe make a variation of the Sign of the Aquila where the symbol is performed over the eyes to symbolize the pantheon too.

Now all we need is a Sign specifically for Ynnead, for when the worshippers wish to call upon her specifically.
 
Highwind said:
The Eldar symbol is an eye, right? We superimpose the Aquila over the eye, stylize them a bit so one isn't overshadowing the other too much and presto, new symbol for the pantheon.

Maybe make a variation of the Sign of the Aquila where the symbol is performed over the eyes to symbolize the pantheon too.

Now all we need is a Sign specifically for Ynnead, for when the worshippers wish to call upon her specifically.
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...I am now imagining an Aquila...with Googly Eyes.
 
Yeah, Imperials should just be contemptuous of Chaos symbology.

One could maybe argue that Ynnead should have a sigil of her own to go with the Aquila, but I think that a single, unifying symbol, with no need for any others, would be the most powerful of all.

-- Having seen the new posts, the idea of an Eldar eye combined with the Aquila does have some merit.
 
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Infodump: Symbols, idols, numerology as it pertains to faith
  • Threadmarks
    • Symbols, idols, and more all help people with faith. The more significant the thing is, the more powerfully it reflects the state of the Warp in the Materium.

    Example: The 8 pointed Star of Chaos is extremely powerful because of a number of factors: 8 being a Chaos number as well as having meaning to the physical laws of the universe, the star being a Chaos symbol, and the various iconography within the star all having their own meanings, etc.

    Another example: Paper seals are extremely powerful because of a number of factors as well: they are intrinsic to human ritual across the ages, the writing on them are part of the Imperial faith, the binding agents allow for more meaning to be added as part of the "glue," etc.

    Also, Adam already has a divine number: 2
    The Aquila has 2 heads, Humanity is a duality (good/evil, male/female, young/old, etc), the 2 aspects of Adam's divinity (God-Emperor and Omnissiah), etc.

    Another thing about numerology: when you're talking about numbers as symbols, you should think about them not in the sense of what those numbers mean in a particular religion or way of thought (because that's bullshit), but in terms of concrete things. Like in the example I gave about Adam's divine number, 2 is powerful because not only does it embody all of Humanity's humanity, but because it is also highly relevant in the physical laws of the universe.

    HOWEVER, Adam did not decide that 2 will be his number. It just became a part of Imperial faith during the intervening years by the various Ecclesiarchs to try and counter Chaos.
     
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    • Basically I'm trying to say: If you want to use numerology, feel free. But also note that if you don't you will not be penalized for it.

    Edit: Also an update is in the works.
     
    KnightDisciple said:
    ...I am now imagining an Aquila...with Googly Eyes.
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    If someone makes a good photoshop of this and writes a coherent omake about it and why it happened (must be 1000+ words), I'll give the thread a reroll. I'll also give 5 +10s to any rolls the thread chooses if that omake becomes canon.
    That's right. I posted a hat trick.
    Feel free to use the thread and have everyone pitch in to make this happen. AKA it doesn't have to be a single person who writes this thing.
     
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    Ooooh. So now 2 has another layer of meaning-- the two races of the Imperium. And Ynnead has the dual domains of Death/Rebirth... And Adam is (preferably/eventually) both God and Man...

    Yeah, I still don't think it should be a huge thing, but if people want to run with numbers, I think 2/duality will do well.
     
    torrmercury said:
    If someone makes a good photoshop of this and writes a coherent omake about it and why it happened (must be 1000+ words), I'll give the thread a reroll. I'll also give 5 +10s to any rolls the thread chooses if that omake becomes canon.
    That's right. I posted a hat trick.
    Feel free to use the thread and have everyone pitch in to make this happen. AKA it doesn't have to be a single person who writes this thing.
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    ... I do Photoshop. Can someone link me to a nice Aquila picture? (I'll search too, but the more eyes (ha!) the better.)

    Edit: found a nice big black-on-white version right on the wiki. Unless someone finds a gold one, shall I run with that?
     
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    torrmercury said:
    If someone makes a good photoshop of this and writes a coherent omake about it and why it happened (must be 1000+ words), I'll give the thread a reroll. I'll also give 5 +10s to any rolls the thread chooses if that omake becomes canon.
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    Well, you see, the Krork and Malcador got really drunk during poker night.../jk

    That's right. I posted a hat trick.
    Feel free to use the thread and have everyone pitch in to make this happen. AKA it doesn't have to be a single person who writes this thing.
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    Hora hora!
     
    I'm liking the idea of trying to steal things from the chaos god. Try not to make it too obvious, maybe use the media to gradually change opinion, but if we can get the public to think of the sovereigns instead of the chaos gods then when we return then chaos would have a harder time getting food. Especially if we're talking about positive emotions.
     
    Hee :D



    I think this should be something the Dominion or UED drew to mock the Imperium, but the Imperial Family is just looking at it and going "... That's actually kind of funny."
     
    It should only have one eye, it would be funnier that way. the Aquilla only has one eye, so, it's actually an aquilla with Googly Eye.
     
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