Attempting to Subvert the Plan: Dominion Edition

Retcon: Should General Horner (the MC) have been The Magistrate (Starcraft 1 PC)?

  • Yes

    Votes: 35 43.8%
  • No

    Votes: 29 36.3%
  • This does not matter to me

    Votes: 16 20.0%

  • Total voters
    80
  • Poll closed .
I dont care leave that moralising out of the door you want to be gun ho all i am saying is be smart play the long game

And if you have no other better arguments then bub but he is monster then you wont be confincing me and i hope others as well

Releasing the prisoners releases talented, skilled people who can make the Dominion better whose largest real crime is disagreeing with a tyrant.

Creating an actual functional news service helps keep people informed and thus allows them to more fairly judge things. He hates that.

Creating functional healthcare rather than, as Mengsk wants, just leaving people to die because helping people scares him, saves lives that can contribute to the economy, the culture, and etc of the Dominion... besides also being the right thing to do.

Helping out Vardona means they're less likely to starve in a crisis, and can produce more for themselves. He hates that.

Creating SCVs is apparently one of the backbones of the entire economy... and he hates that too, for literally no reason.

If we choose to do nothing he dislikes, we'll basically have to deliberately avoid most of the things that actually help people.
 
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[] Plan: Steady the Course, build our staff
- [] Korhal: Capital City Augustgrad (Phase 1) [MANDATORY]
--[] 1 dice, 20 R
-[] Brontes: Orbital Cleanup (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 3 dice, 60 R
-[] Vardona: Ardonin Heavy Vehicle Factory (Phase 1)
--[] 3 Dice, 45 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Refugee Workshops (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 3 Dice, 30 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Establish Farmsteads (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--
[] 2 Dice, 20 R
[] Korhal: Regreening Effort (Phase 1)
--
[] 1 Dice, 5 R
-[] Korhal: Eastcliff Military Academy
--[] 2 Dice, 20 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Military Recruitment Offices
--[] 2 Dice, 20 R
-[] The Dominion Health Service (Phase 1)
--[] 3 dice, 30 R
-[] Integrated Protective Ensemble (Tech)
--[] 2 dice, 10 R
[] Handheld Fusion Cutters (Tech)
--[] 1 dice, 2 Free dice, 15 R
-[]Conduct a Dominion-Wide Census [Reconstruction]
--[] 1 Bureaucracy Dice, 1 Free Dice, 10 R
[] Refill the Upper Echelons (Experts)
--[] 2 Bureaucracy dice, 10 R
- [] Hire Advisors
--[] 1 Personal Dice, 25 R flat.
-[] Hire a Personal Staff
--[] 1 Free die, 1 Personal die, 10 R
 
I dont care leave that moralising out of the door you want to be gun ho all i am saying is be smart play the long game

And if you have no other better arguments then bub but he is monster then you wont be confincing me and i hope others as well
You miss the point of the argument by calling it "moralizing."

The point isn't just "Mengsk is terrible." The point is, as the QM has directly told us, that Mengsk is so hostile, paranoid, and cruel that there is no long game that avoids antagonizing him.

Anything that doesn't fit his vision, that is widely popular and will make the person doing it liked, that is outside his personal control, or that gives us control over our own situation, will make him more paranoid.

But avoiding all those things will not avoid Paranoia. Because failure will also make him more paranoid. And if we somehow confine ourselves to actions that fit Mengsk's vision, are not popular enough to give us a support base, are entirely centralizing things under his control, and that deprive us of control over our own situation... we'll fail.

...

You talk over and over about "playing the long game," but I don't think you have a clear mental picture of what "the long game" even is here.

The problem here is that because of Mengsk's morally terrible nature and chronic suspicion, there is no "long game" that avoids antagonizing him. If we avoid all the possible sources of Paranoia, we will:

1) Fail to rebuild the Dominion, and Mengsk will shoot us for failure, OR
2) Fail to rebuild the Dominion, and the Zerg or the UED will kick our asses and destroy us.
 
Out of curiosity, why aren't people going for sending a letter "Home"? It's fairly cheap, and I suspect that doing so will unlock a whole host of "Sabotage Mensk" options. The personal action malus stings hard, but if we toss two dice at the problem, we have a 79.20% chance of dodging the paranoia gain.
 
Out of curiosity, why aren't people going for sending a letter "Home"? It's fairly cheap, and I suspect that doing so will unlock a whole host of "Sabotage Mensk" options. The personal action malus stings hard, but if we toss two dice at the problem, we have a 79.20% chance of dodging the paranoia gain.

I feel like we have a few other things we can do still that are higher priority. I don't think a plan that decides to do that first is bad, though.
 
[] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V4A--For People Who Care About The Environment
- [] Korhal: Capital City Augustgrad (Phase 1) [MANDATORY]
--[] 1 dice, 20 R
-[] Brontes: Orbital Cleanup (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 3 dice, 60 R
-[] Vardona: Ardonin Heavy Vehicle Factory (Phase 1)
--[] 3 Dice, 45 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Refugee Workshops (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 3 Dice, 30 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Establish Farmsteads (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 2 Dice, 20 R
[] Korhal: Regreening Effort (Phase 1)

--[] 1 Dice, 5 R
-[] Korhal: Eastcliff Military Academy
--[] 2 Dice, 20 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Military Recruitment Offices
--[] 2 Dice, 20 R
-[] The Dominion Health Service (Phase 1)
--[] 3 dice, 30 R
-[] Integrated Protective Ensemble (Tech)
--[] 2 dice, 10 R
[] Handheld Fusion Cutters (Tech)
--[] 1 dice, 2 Free dice, 15 R
-[] Truth and Reconciliation Committee (Idealistic)
--[] 1 Bureaucracy Dice, 1 Free Dice, 10 R
[] Refill the Upper Echelons (Experts)
--[] 2 Bureaucracy dice, 10 R
- [] Set Up a Personal Expense Account
--[] 1 Personal Dice, 25 R flat.
-[] Hire a Personal Staff
--[] 1 Free die, 1 Personal die, 10 R

[] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V3B--For People Who Don't Care About the Environment
- [] Korhal: Capital City Augustgrad (Phase 1) [MANDATORY]
--[] 1 dice, 20 R
-[] Brontes: Orbital Cleanup (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 3 dice, 60 R
-[] Vardona: Ardonin Heavy Vehicle Factory (Phase 1)
--[] 3 Dice, 45 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Refugee Workshops (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 3 Dice, 30 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Establish Farmsteads (Phase 1) [Reconstruction]
--[] 3 Dice, 30 R
-[] Korhal: Eastcliff Military Academy

--[] 2 Dice, 20 R
-[] Tyrador IX: Military Recruitment Offices
--[] 2 Dice, 20 R
-[] The Dominion Health Service (Phase 1)
--[] 3 dice, 30 R
-[] Integrated Protective Ensemble (Tech)
--[] 2 dice, 10 R
[] Handheld Fusion Cutters (Tech)
--[] 1 dice, 2 Free dice, 15 R
-[] Truth and Reconciliation Committee (Idealistic)
--[] 1 Bureaucracy Dice, 1 Free Dice, 10 R
[] Refill the Upper Echelons (Experts)
--[] 2 Bureaucracy dice, 10 R
- [] Set Up a Personal Expense Account
--[] 1 Personal Dice, 25 R flat.
-[] Hire a Personal Staff
--[] 1 Free die, 1 Personal die, 10 R

And there. Perfectly honest and fair Plan names that are in no way biased. /s

I'm very happy with not caring about the environment :D
 
1) Fail to rebuild the Dominion, and Mengsk will shoot us for failure, OR
2) Fail to rebuild the Dominion, and the Zerg or the UED will kick our asses and destroy us

Plus
A: The treasury department is too wide and too big, better gut the leadership before someone get ideas.
B: Ol Chuck is too popular with people and that's potential challenger to Mengsk's big chair.
 
Plus
A: The treasury department is too wide and too big, better gut the leadership before someone get ideas.
B: Ol Chuck is too popular with people and that's potential challenger to Mengsk's big chair.
Those are both things that happen if we do make Mengsk paranoid.

The point is that if we don't make Mengsk paranoid at all, if we "play it smart" for Fenrirean standards of 'smart,' then we still lose in the long run. Either Mengsk shoots us for not accomplishing enough, or the UED shoots us for being a senior Dominion official, or Kerrigan doesn't so much shoot us as render us down into bio-slurry and feed us to a pack of hydralisks.
 
[X] Plan Build the Tools to Build the Tools
-[X]Infrastructure 4/4 70R
--[X] Korhal: Capital City Augustgrad (Phase 1) [MANDATORY] 1 die 10R 0%

(Progress 25/300, -10R per die, -10 Paranoia when complete)
--[X] Brontes: Orbital Cleanup (Phase 1) [Reconstruction] 3 dice 60R 44%
(Progress 149/300, -20R per die, Resource gain)
-[X]Heavy Industry 3/3 75R
--[X] Vardona: Ardonin Heavy Vehicle Factory (Phase 1) 3 dice + 2 dice 75R 5%

(Progress 0/300, -15R per die, +5 Paranoia when started, +5 Paranoia when complete, multiple projects finish faster)
-[X]Light and Chemical Industry 3/3 30R
--[X] Tyrador IX: Refugee Workshops (Phase 1) [Reconstruction] 3 dice 30R 0%

(Progress 82/400, -10R per die, Resource income)
-[X]Environmental 3/3 30R
--[X] Tyrador IX: Establish Farmsteads (Phase 1) [Reconstruction] 3 dice 30R 0%

(Progress 122/400, -10R per die)
-[X]Services 3/3 40R
--[X] The Dominion Health Service (Phase 1) 1 die 10R 0%

(Progress 0/300, -10R per die, +5 Paranoia)
--[X] Re-Establish the Universal News Network [Reconstruction] 2 dice 30R 36%
(Progress 0/100, -15R per die, +5 Paranoia)
-[X]Military 4/4 40R
--[X] Korhal: Eastcliff Military Academy 2 dice 20R 70%

(Progress 128/200, -10R per die, -10 Paranoia)
--[X] Nephor II: Fort Horner Marine Training Camp 2 dice 20R 0%
(Progress 0/200, -10R per die, -5 Paranoia)
-[X]Research 3/3 15R
--[X] Integrated Protective Ensemble (Tech) 3 dice 15R 89%

(Progress 36/100, -5R per die, -5 Paranoia)
-[X]Bureaucracy 3/3 20R
--[X] Refill the Upper Echelons (Experts) 2 dice 10R 86%

(Increases available dice) (Progress 62/100, -5R per die, +5 Paranoia)
--[X] Conduct a Dominion-Wide Census [Reconstruction] 1 dice 10R 0%
(Progress 0/300, -10R per die)
-[X]Personal 2/2 20R
--[X] Hire a Personal Staff 2 dice 10R 79%

(Increases Personal dice) (DC 20/40 to determine personnel quality, -5R per die)
--[X] Hire Advisors 2 free dice 10R 79%
(Provides project die bonuses) (DC 20/40 to determine personnel quality, -5R per die, +5 Paranoia)
-[X]Free Dice 4/4
-[X] 2 in Heavy Industry
-[X] 2 in Personal
-[X]Resources stockpile 215/215 Income 125/230 Total 340/445
 
Those are both things that happen if we do make Mengsk paranoid.

The point is that if we don't make Mengsk paranoid at all, if we "play it smart" for Fenrirean standards of 'smart,' then we still lose in the long run. Either Mengsk shoots us for not accomplishing enough, or the UED shoots us for being a senior Dominion official, or Kerrigan doesn't so much shoot us as render us down into bio-slurry and feed us to a pack of hydralisks.

My point is that we get shot even if we fulfilled or nearly fulfilled the reconstruction mandate. There is no win condition without murdering Mengsk or running away then come back with an army.

Edit:. Ah yes voting time. Wait it does ha e slush funds.
[X] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V3B--For People Who Don't Care About the Environment
 
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[X] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V3B--For People Who Don't Care About the Environment
[X] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V4A--For People Who Care About The Environment
[X] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V4C--Pro-Environment Jarheads
[X] Plan Build the Tools to Build the Tools
 
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[X] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V4A--For People Who Care About The Environment
[X] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V3B--For People Who Don't Care About the Environment
 
[X] Plan: We Hold The Course, We Build Income, V4A--For People Who Care About The Environment
 
If there's anyone who thinks the slush fund is a bad idea right now, or that Nephor II's factories are important enough to be a priority, I have a less-bandwagon option for that:

Budget: 445 R (230 RpT income)
Free Dice: 4

350/445 R
4/4 Free dice

[X] Plan Attempting to Rebuild The Factory Planet
-[X] Infrastructure (4/4 Dice + 4 Free dice, -3 penalty, 100 R)
--[X] Korhal: Capital City Augustgrad (Phase 1) 25/300 (1 die, 10 R) (1/6 median)
--[X] Brontes: Orbital Cleanup (Phase 1) 149/300 (3 dice, 60 R) (44% chance)
--[X] Nephor II: Planetary Reconstruction (Phase 1) 0/600 (4 dice, 40 R) (4/12.5 median)
-[X] Heavy Industry (3/3 Dice, -8 penalty, 45 R)
--[X] Vardona: Ardonin Heavy Vehicle Factory (Phase 1) 0/300 (3 dice, 45 R) (3/7 median)
-[X] Light Industry (3/3 Dice, -8 penalty, 30 R)
--[X] Tyrador IX: Refugee Workshops (Phase 1) 82/400 (3 dice, 30 R) (3/7.5 median)
-[X] Environmental (3/3 Dice, -8 penalty, 30 R)
--[X] Tyrador IX: Establish Farmsteads (Phase 1) 122/400 (3 dice, 30 R) (3/6.5 median)
-[X] Services (3/3 dice + 1 Free die, -8 penalty, 40 R)
--[X] Re-Establish the Universal News Network 0/100 (2 dice, 30 R) (36% chance)
--[X] The Dominion Health Service (Phase 1) 0/300 (1 die, 10 R) (1/4.5 median)
-[X] Military (4/4 dice, -3 penalty, 40 R)
--[X] Korhal: Eastcliff Military Academy 128/200 (1 die, 10 R) (26% chance)
--[X] Fort Horner Training Camp 0/200 (3 dice, 30 R) (8% chance)
-[X] Research (3/3 dice, -8 penalty, 30 R)
--[X] Integrated Protective Ensemble 36/100 (3 dice, 30 R) (89% chance) (good chance of overflow into manufacturing)
-[X] Bureaucracy (3/3 dice, -8 penalty, 15 R)
--[X] Refill the Upper Echelons 62/100 (2 dice, 10 R) (86% chance)
--[X] Truth and Reconciliation Committee (Idealistic) 0/200 (1 die, 5 R) (1/4.5 median)
-[X] Personal (2/2 dice, -13 penalty, 10 R)
--[X] Hire a Personal Staff (2 dice, 10 R) (90% to hit DC 20, 79% DC 40)

My point is that we get shot even if we fulfilled or nearly fulfilled the reconstruction mandate. There is no win condition without murdering Mengsk or running away then come back with an army.
My gut feeling is that we could probably keep things wobbling along and keep Mengsk's paranoia managed to more or less fulfill the mandate while sucking up to the boss enough that we'd at least get through the current Five Year Plan.

The problem isn't that we couldn't do that much, it's that the position would still be unsustainable in the long run even if we made it out to the five year mark.

To be clear, I agree with you about the ultimate conclusion: we need to find a way to get rid of Arcturus Mengsk, or eventually it's game over. In theory maybe Mengsk would be gracious enough to allow old Chuck Horner a peaceful retirement, but I'm betting no. The only point on which we disagree is that my gut feeling is that we might be able to spin things out into the timeframe of Starcraft II, whereas you are effectively predicting that it would all fall apart and we'd get shot before the events of even Brood War hitting us.
 
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[X] Plan Attempting to Rebuild The Factory Planet

@The Laurent My problem with the bandwagon plans was covered in the last page or 2; Military Recruitment Offices could really hurt us in the long run.
 
[X] Plan Attempting to Rebuild The Factory Planet

@The Laurent My problem with the bandwagon plans was covered in the last page or 2; Military Recruitment Offices could really hurt us in the long run.

My perspective is that Grimely is misreading things. Does the fact that the Tsarist military often recruited from the poor therefore make all of those figures loyal beyond belief to the Tsardom or etc, etc? I don't think recruiting offices on their own will either help or hinder attempts to revolt against the Dominion, it depends entirely on other, alternate, events and outcomes beyond the option itself.

Recruiting among the poor and destitute could lead to them owing everything to the government and being even more loyal to it than ever... or it can lead to the opposite. Or, likely, both at the same time.
 
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My perspective is that Grimely is misreading things. Does the fact that the Tsarist military often recruited from the poor therefore make all of those figures loyal beyond belief to the Tsardom or etc, etc? I don't think recruiting offices on their own will either help or hinder attempts to revolt against the Dominion, it depends entirely on other, alternate, events and outcomes beyond the option itself.
The trick is that the Czar's conscripts were recruited during a time when the aristocracy was obviously the main thing wrong with Russia.

Right now, to the average Dominion citizen, Mengsk looks like the solution, not the problem. He's the man who overthrew an unpopular government, and he sure does know how to give a good speech.

Soldiers recruited in the near future are likely to be loyal to Mengsk, if Mengsk doesn't really, really screw up managing that loyalty. And I don't foresee that being a problem for Mengsk. If his paranoia stopped him from having charisma and the ability to hold an organization of armed fighters together, he'd never have kept the Sons of Korhal going as long as he did.

It's less of a problem if Mengsk is recruiting in a few years, after reconstruction is partway done and after some of the shine has worn off his regime.
 
[X] Plan Attempting to Rebuild The Factory Planet

I figure that doing the slush fund before contacting the Raiders to get options that we'd need the money for is rather putting the cart before the horse. Anyways, I would rather not do recruiting offices. The chances of all of them becoming fanatically devoted to Mengsk is unlikely, but even if a small percentage is indoctrinated, it will be a major problem, and there's no guarantee it will be a small percentage.
 
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