- Location
- Australia
[X] Plan: On Task, On Time, and On Target... To Bring In a Tad More Dough
[X] Plan: There Is Power In A Union
[X] Plan: There Is Power In A Union
Attempting to Subvert the Plan: Dominion Edition
- Thread starter Etranger
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- starcraft plan quest
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan: On Task, On Time, and On Target...to undermine Mengsk
- Pronouns
- He/his/him
[X] Plan: On Task, On Time, and On Target... To Bring In a Tad More Dough
[X] Plan: On Task, On Time, and On Target...to undermine Mengsk
[X] Plan: On Task, On Time, and On Target...to undermine Mengsk
One good effortpost deserves another. I agree with you the T&D works and SCV plant are both powerful projects. However, despite my love of doing things efficiently, I am still going to vote for Laurent's plan over yours, and not just because of Simon Jester's point about how little we know about the economy we're in charge of running (although that's quite a point indeed).
The main issue is that both projects make heavy use of our limited HI dice. Dice that we need to work on Dylarian Shipyards. Remember, the Dominion Navy is shrinking in power every turn. That's a major problem in a space as filled with threats as the Koprulu Sector. Those threats may take a while to arrive, but shipbuilding and maintenance is also time intensive, naval strategy is built strategy and all that.
Moreover, in a society as militaristic as the Dominion, building civvie shipyards (which are both very needed and quite achievable) before their military counterparts should be somewhat controversial. Having a lot of progress done should help soften the blow at the next poker game.
I also have issues with your argument for T&D works and SCV. I don't think we can rely on T&D, or any progress reduction project, saving us resources. Dice, sure, but any resources that we save by using less dice on a project will probably be used on another on the same turn. We'll save R on some turns, sure, but we'll likely lose them on others. There's no real way to tell if we'll make or lose R in the long run.
I have a problem with your dice savings analysis as well. It assumes that investing in T&D (and SCV) is an all-or-nothing, now or never affair. I don't think that anyone in this thread would push for ignoring either of those projects for the entire duration of the quest.
I think it's better to look at this in terms of opportunity costs. Since the potential benefits aren't actualized until we hit those last few points of progress, every turn we don't complete T&D costs us on average one die for every applicable project we complete. That averages to about 3/turn judging by past history.
Of course, our dice pool has expanded since turn 1, and four turns isn't the best sample size in any event, so it's probably a good idea to find a rough maximum. Assuming that we complete one applicable project in each category with potential projects each turn (fairly unlikely to happen on a regular basis imo, since we tend to only focus one project in each category, but I'm aiming for an approximate maximum here) , we save five dice per turn. So, since we have 50 dice, T&D will save us about 10% of our current dice each turn at most. That's a fair amount, but I'd much rather have our shipyards turning out warships sooner.
Now, it's time to look at the SCV plant. It has the same benefits as T&D, plus orbital benefits. Now, the opportunity costs for not having SCV in orbital projects are greater than their terrestrial counterparts on a per-project basis. We lose out on one die for every orbital project we complete, and another everytime we get within 50 points of completion on an applicable project. Unfortunately, we do a whole lot less orbital projects compared to their terrestrial counterparts. In fact, we've only completed one applicable project, for two dice lost in four turns. Even doing some napkin forecasting, I can't see us losing out on more than six dice in as many turns. This is partly because they are less common, and also they tend to be more expensive. Their prices aren't reduced by Neotextiles, and that gap will only widen once phase 2 autocompletes next turn. Of course, the situation can and will change in the long-term, but, fortunately for my sanity, that's beyond the scope of this analysis.
Unfortunately the SCV plant has additional downsides to go with the upsides, and in this case, I think the additional cons may very well outweigh the added pros at this point in time. It costs significantly more than T&D, and worse, costs a good chunk of Paranoia. We need to keep our Paranoia down for the next poker game. We'll need it to protect our budget (potentially tricky given our large surplus), ask for favors, and deal with whatever crazy plan Mengsk wants us to do next. Admittedly, we have several ways to reduce paranoia, but we also have plenty on the agenda that will raise it as well.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do both projects. I just think we should wait a bit. I'd say try to get one or ideally both done around Q2 2508. Use the next two turns to get Dylarian Shipyards close to done. Finish whatever's left if anything Q1 2509, crash build Planning and Statistics, and maybe get something of a start on SCV and/or T&D. If everything looks good to go, and we don't have to promise anything huge in HI next budget meeting, have both SCV and T&D done before Q3 of 2509.
[X] Plan: On Task, On Time, and On Target...to undermine Mengsk
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
My main points of discontent with "to undermine Mengsk," which by now has bandwagoned far past the point where I consider it worthwhile to promote an alternative plan...
1) I really wanted Supply Bunkers this turn. It's relevant for many of the same humanitarian reasons as other factors, and the Tyrador IX reconstruction isn't so super-urgent that we have a burning need to complete it this turn, so far as I know.
2) I think that starting three new Environmental projects while letting the Tyrador IX homestead project stall is a mistake. Neither the yum-yum bars nor the Vardona hydroponics are this kind of urgent, even though I agree that the latter project is long-term important.
1) I really wanted Supply Bunkers this turn. It's relevant for many of the same humanitarian reasons as other factors, and the Tyrador IX reconstruction isn't so super-urgent that we have a burning need to complete it this turn, so far as I know.
2) I think that starting three new Environmental projects while letting the Tyrador IX homestead project stall is a mistake. Neither the yum-yum bars nor the Vardona hydroponics are this kind of urgent, even though I agree that the latter project is long-term important.
Word of QM
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Word of QM
Thread
Thread
- Paranoia can go to 0, but it will never stay there 1, 2
- Canon omakes grant a +15 bonus and are canonical or effectively canonical events and are posted in Sidestory 1, 2
- Semi-canon omakes grant a +10 bonus and have canonical events or themes but are overall not parts of the narrative and are posted in Apocrypha 1, 2
- Non-canon omakes grant a +5 bonus and are appreciated but are for whatever reason not part of the overall narrative and are posted in Apocrypha 1, 2
- Retroactive Approvals is a positive trait, converted 100s from it do not grant -5 Paranoia 1, 2
- Mechanics will tend to be interpreted as positively as possible so Mengsk can be interpreted as negatively as possible 1
- Overflow will go to a sensible project instead of being wasted, but if there are no direct follow on projects it is usually halved 1, 2
- Character traits made obsolete or irrelevant will be replaced with a trait of roughly equivalent value, including negative traits that are rendered ineffective by in-game developments, but not negative traits that are manually removed 1
- Horner is aware of the events on Tarsonis 1
- Reductions to Horner's High School Dropout penalty are applied at the start of the turn 1
- Dominion high command expects another war but is presently unaware of Kerrigan's infestation 1
- Dominion high command knows that the Overmind is dead and that Aiur was lost 1
- The Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan Protectorate are only nominal vassal states of the Dominion 1
- Korhal: Capital City Augustgrad counts as a Revitalization project in the Infrastructure category 1
- Brood War prologue events are not predetermined, they will be rolled for 1
- Performing well on TRUST is not a guarantee of a paranoia reduction 1
- Some narrative events can be improved by completing projects faster (through more dice) or writing a canon or semi-canon omake on the subject in question 1
- Projects can't be reduced below 100 needed Progress, -5R/F per-die cost, or DC 20 1
- In the event of project length being reduced by any means, it will autocomplete next turn and its progress roll over as normal so long as at least one die was invested in it on the same turn as - or any turn after - the reduction took effect 1, 2
- The Dominion's military partially self funds from mining operations surrounding their bases
- Memes are worth a noncanon omake if they make Etranger laugh
- Resocialization will still be used, but not all Marines will be Resocialized
- Any project that doesn't explicitly say "reduces progress needed" or "reduces per-die cost" shouldn't be relied upon to do either
- Minerals are officially known as "koprulite" (Etranger deeply regrets making this canon)
- Omakes may be used for shortfalls on DCs
- Chuck is related to Matt Horner through his half-sister, who died on Tarsonis
- A project is only considered complete for the purposes of Revitalization when all of its phases are done
- It has always been the five year plan
- The wraparound straight is a completely legitimate hand
- Choices taken at prior poker games may influence the next one
- Mengsk will not be convinced that Horner is actively opposing him unless and until he reaches 100 Paranoia
- Horner knows Mengsk well enough to foresee changes in his demeanor
- Mengsk trusts everyone at the poker table as much as he can trust anyone
- Leaking information about Broken Mesa most closely fits under Raynor's Raiders: Leak Embarrassing Intel
- The only [Reconstruction] project not currently visible is Brontes: Planetary Reconstruction
- Completing phase 1 of Brontes: Orbital Cleanup granted Alpha Squadron a second die in its campaign against feral Zerg
- UNN counts as a Revitalization project in the Services category, but follow on projects must be completed
- Percentage based Funding rounds to the nearest multiple of 5, remainders of 2.5 round up.
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- Location
- Canada
Would it be possible to have a personal action to remove the High school drop out trait? maybe spend some time to get that high school diploma?
Also are we going to get actions related to the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan Protectorate maybe opening up trade or something else?
Also are we going to get actions related to the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan Protectorate maybe opening up trade or something else?
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We literally roll for it every turn. If above 50 we lose 2 of the Dice Malus until it is gone. So we just need two more over 50 rolls and it is gone.
- Location
- Canada
Oh, was not paying attention to that part.
I just thought it would be an amusing action to take, maybe someone could write an omake for it.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Updated the Word of QM post with the discord rulings as well, not putting sources there for uh, obvious reasons.
One of the advisors we could've chosen was literally a school teacher who was going to teach us, but we went with Arendt instead.
One of the advisors we could've chosen was literally a school teacher who was going to teach us, but we went with Arendt instead.
- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
Just to let people know, I said on Discord that if someone collected all my various rulings and statements that I'd award a canon omake bonus for it, and grimely called my bluff by actually doing it, so that's what I've done. Congratulations.
Omake Status Board
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Omake Status Board
Non-Canon (+5)
Non-Canon (+5)
Character Portrait: General Horner- Sara System: Imperial Chemical-Mineral SurveyHow to Alter the Metaplot- Tyrador IX: Refugee Workshops (Phase 2)- QM Guilt
- Thus Always to Tax Cheats
- MengskQuest Character Generation
- Empire
- Probability Array
- A Helpful Reply
Personnel Qualities- Tyrador IX: Establish Farmsteads (Phase 1)History of the Confederacy- Tyrador IX: Military Recruitment OfficesFool's Flush- Nephor II: Fort Horner Marine Training CampThey Could've Won- Tyrador IX: Imperial Science UniversityMath is Scary- Nephor II: Nephor Industrial Megacomplex (Phase 1)New Folsom Blues- Brontes: Orbital Cleanup (Phase 2)Word of QM- Mar Sara: Restoring the Biosphere (Phase 1)TRUST Table of Ranks- High Efficiency Conduits- History of the Hyperion
- Small Gains
- Shoulder Devil
- Nightmare
- Boss
Fool's Flush- provided 1 additional Leverage to the 2508 Budget Negotiations
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
1) My perspective is that, with switching out Fringe Worlds Personal for Call Raynor Personal, it would make more sense to focus in on Supply Bunkers Q4 along with putting a dice into Personal so we can do Fringe Worlds Personal and also "Talk to the military" Personal.
2) My perspective is that we're well ahead of schedule. In Universe, we could literally say that people were too busy getting ready to do the harvest to make major reforms to their crop structures. If the QM was diabolical, honestly, it would have been the case that you can only make major changes to agricultural policy regarding actual regular farmlands in Q1 and Q4, because logically speaking people should be busy in Q2 and Q3 doing actual agriculture. This wouldn't be fun, so I don't think it's going to happen, but just saying.
Vote closed
- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
The margin is fairly overwhelming and I'm around now, so I'm closing voting a little early and rolling for results.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
...and fingers crossed.
This ignores that we have a short-term alternative in the Military category, which allows us to increase the strength of the Dominion navy via salvaging, which both benefits from, and doesn't compete with, investment into the SCV Plant.
You're looking at this from the entirely wrong angle. We'll always be aiming to use as many of our dice as possible, and in the process spend as many R as needed to keep those dice active, so looking at "how many dice/R do they save us per turn" is flawed and will obviously lead to the wrong conclusion, because we'll always be aiming to use as many of our dice as possible, and in the process spend as many R as needed to keep those dice active. "How many dice/R would they have saved us on the projects we've already completed" is somehow even *more* flawed than that, because it completely ignores the far more relevant part of the amount of dice they can save us going forward.
Instead the point of the SCV Plant and T&D Works is that they save us dice and Resources not on a per-turn basis, but on a per-project basis.
As you pointed out; fluff aside we don't actually benefit from partially-completed projects in mechanical terms, as such the main factor to consider is how both of those projects can help us increase the number of projects we can complete in the short-, mid-, and long-term, as that is where SCV/TD benefit us massively.
The most drastic example of this is undoubtedly in Environmental, where the completion of the T&D and SCV phases cut the progress-cost for a lot of projects in half. Regreening went from 200 to 100 progress, meaning instead of ~4 dice and ~20 R, it now only costs ~2 dice and ~10R. Same with Vardona Hydroponics. The Foodularium went from ~40R to ~20, and the Dylarian hydroponics from ~60R to ~30, with both only requiring ~2 dice as well.
This means that instead of having to spend all of our Environmental dice on one project to finish it in a turn, we could finish two, with all of the benefits that entails in terms of addressing issues such as food-shortages, strengthening the economy, and so on, and so forth.
But while Environmental is likely the most drastic example, it's not exactly the only one. In Military, not counting TRUST, the current projects and phases require a total of 1000 progress to complete, which translates into ~20 dice, or ~3,3 turns using available Military dice. Completing another phase of T&D and SCV would reduce the progress-cost for all non-TRUST projects by 100, down to a total of 700, or ~14 dice / ~2,3 turns.
Light Industry; currently requires 1500 Progress for all current phases other than the Survey, which is ~30 dice or ~6 turns. Would become 1100 Progress, or ~22 dice / ~4,4 turns.
Infrastructure; discounting the Fringe World Bunkers, roughly the same as LI; going from 1500 Progress (~30 dice / ~5 turns) for all current project phases to 1100 (~22 dice / ~3,6 turns).
Heavy Industry is harder, since SCV/T&D affect each other, but also future phases of themselves, but benefits from those two projects in general all the same.
And all of this is merely for current projects; many of them have multiple phases that also receive a discount from the SCV/T&D projects, as will any new projects that will prop up as the quest goes on. This is very much a matter of compounding benefits/snowballing; the sooner we complete projects, the sooner we start to benefit from them, and the more their benefits will add up over time. Inversely, the longer we wait with completing as many SCV/T&D phases as possible, the more we miss out on in the long run.
Which means that when discussing opportunity-cost, the relevant question is not "what do we give up by building the SCV/TD projects now". Instead, the relevant question is "what do we give up by NOT building the SCV/TD projects now".
Or, more concretely; is prioritizing the construction of the military shipyards worth NOT reducing the cost of more than a dozen projects by ~100-200 points each? For me it's blatantly obvious that the shipyards aren't worth it - especially given the alternative available for the short-term - but given the outcome of the vote it's also blatantly obvious that I'm nearly alone to think so, so I won't waste any more of my time trying to discuss this.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Other than NIM, some Great results, including two Natural 1s that become 100s. 
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Korhal: Capital City Augustgrad (Phase 2) 62+99+8=169/400, Nice.
Tyrador IX: Planetary Reconstruction (Phase 1) 318+36=354/300, Complete. 54 Rollover to Tyrador Phase 2.
Nephor II: Nephor Industrial Megacomplex (Phase 1) [Reconstruction] 256+8+13=277/300, the most notable/major failure.
Dylar IV: Dylarian Shipyards (Phase 1) [Reconstruction] 202 (a Non-Natural 100)+12=214/500
Sara System: Imperial Chemical-Mineral Survey 133+61+3=197/200, completed either automatically or by Omake.
Vardona: Vespene Extraction Operations (Phase 1) 318+40=358/500.
Korhal: Regreening Effort (Phase 1)32-2=30/100
Nephor II: Cap'n Yum-Yum's Fantabulous Foodularium 91+16=107/100, complete. Maybe the 7 overflow progress slightly helps the hopeless NIM.
Vardona: Subsidiary Hydroponics Effort 127+6=133/100, some overflow to... Vespene? Shipyards?
Mass Literacy Movement (Phase 1) 156/200 156+45-2=199/200, another close one.
Vardona: Angustia Orbital Shipyard Complex (Phase 1) 179+12=191/400
Korhal: Fort Romulus Lunar Garrison [NEW] 137+6=143/300
Vardona: Treasury Reserve Uniformed Service Troops 153+32=185, passes highest DC of 120
New Model Weaponry (Phase 1) (Tech) 125-6=119/150
Iris-class Light Airship (Tech) 185-4=181/150
Truth and Reconciliation Committee (Idealistic) 171+64+16=251/200, 52 overflow.
Conduct a Dominion-Wide Census [Reconstruction] 63+242+24=329/300, complete.
Raynor's Raiders: Request an Update 164-4=160, DC 40
Deadman's Rock: Authorize Arendt's Working Vacation 41-2=39, DC 20
Nephor II: Contact the Industrial Workers' Trust 54+16=70 DC 40
Just for results, not for Paranoia, Resources, etc.
Tyrador IX: Planetary Reconstruction (Phase 1) 318+36=354/300, Complete. 54 Rollover to Tyrador Phase 2.
Nephor II: Nephor Industrial Megacomplex (Phase 1) [Reconstruction] 256+8+13=277/300, the most notable/major failure.
Dylar IV: Dylarian Shipyards (Phase 1) [Reconstruction] 202 (a Non-Natural 100)+12=214/500
Sara System: Imperial Chemical-Mineral Survey 133+61+3=197/200, completed either automatically or by Omake.
Vardona: Vespene Extraction Operations (Phase 1) 318+40=358/500.
Korhal: Regreening Effort (Phase 1)32-2=30/100
Nephor II: Cap'n Yum-Yum's Fantabulous Foodularium 91+16=107/100, complete. Maybe the 7 overflow progress slightly helps the hopeless NIM.
Vardona: Subsidiary Hydroponics Effort 127+6=133/100, some overflow to... Vespene? Shipyards?
Mass Literacy Movement (Phase 1) 156/200 156+45-2=199/200, another close one.
Vardona: Angustia Orbital Shipyard Complex (Phase 1) 179+12=191/400
Korhal: Fort Romulus Lunar Garrison [NEW] 137+6=143/300
Vardona: Treasury Reserve Uniformed Service Troops 153+32=185, passes highest DC of 120
New Model Weaponry (Phase 1) (Tech) 125-6=119/150
Iris-class Light Airship (Tech) 185-4=181/150
Truth and Reconciliation Committee (Idealistic) 171+64+16=251/200, 52 overflow.
Conduct a Dominion-Wide Census [Reconstruction] 63+242+24=329/300, complete.
Raynor's Raiders: Request an Update 164-4=160, DC 40
Deadman's Rock: Authorize Arendt's Working Vacation 41-2=39, DC 20
Nephor II: Contact the Industrial Workers' Trust 54+16=70 DC 40
Just for results, not for Paranoia, Resources, etc.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
For Paranoia:
Edit: I forgot the Brontes Refloating, added that in.
- Vardona Hydroponics +5
- Mass Literacy +5
- T&R Idealistic +5
- Iris Airships -5
- Brontes Refloating Auto -10
- TRUST (?)
Edit: I forgot the Brontes Refloating, added that in.
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My bet for TRUST is that passing the first one is good, passing the second one is bad and passing the last one is good again.
From "Chuck blew up his org chart for no reasons" paranoia to "Chuck going with the overt dominion militarization vibes" to "Oh fuck he has personal troops" and finally "Those taxmen in power armored jackboots are a hoot. Good job Chuck."
From "Chuck blew up his org chart for no reasons" paranoia to "Chuck going with the overt dominion militarization vibes" to "Oh fuck he has personal troops" and finally "Those taxmen in power armored jackboots are a hoot. Good job Chuck."