[X] Plan Love of the Legion and various Studies

[X] Plan Publicola

Firm Foundations is an interesting plan in that it goes for the repairs, but picking Make Terms without also choosing The Cult makes this a plan of questionable quality.
Since @Japanime earlier described The Cult as:
Probably a must take option no matter the choice as it can only help us in terms of deciding the leadership of the Legion.
I'm even inclined to think they simply forgot it..
 
I'm even inclined to think they simply forgot it..

Nope, I didn't forget it. I simply figured that with our current position within the Legion we wouldn't per se need the boost that the Cult would give us in terms of negotiating with Cassianus. With the other in my Plan, I figured that we'd have a very firm foundation to negotiate from, as Promoting the Centurions, solving the shelter issue, and the Brotherhood Options would do more than enough for us to shore up our already good reputation of 8/10. Adding the Cult Option, while likely to help our negotiating position in getting us more control, it seemed somewhat redundant in my opinion, in light of all of the other options chosen as well.
 
Nope, I didn't forget it. I simply figured that with our current position within the Legion we wouldn't per se need the boost that the Cult would give us in terms of negotiating with Cassianus. With the other in my Plan, I figured that we'd have a very firm foundation to negotiate from, as Promoting the Centurions, solving the shelter issue, and the Brotherhood Options would do more than enough for us to shore up our already good reputation of 8/10. Adding the Cult Option, while likely to help our negotiating position in getting us more control, it seemed somewhat redundant in my opinion, in light of all of the other options chosen as well.
But in abandoning our duties to go do things just because they impress the troops, that negotiating position exists entirly counter to the spirit of divided responsibilities that Make Terms embodies. We are going to him to discuss (relatively) fairly dividing roles for the good of the legion while claiming a new role and neglecting our official one.
 
Here are the differences between the two front-runners: 'Plan Love of the Legion' (LotL) and 'Plan Publicola' (PP)

Consul's Heir: LotL picks 'Make Terms' to define our roles within the legion; PP picks 'Connect' to try and befriend Cassianus at this early stage.

Master of the Cohorts: no differences

Correspondence: LotL picks Scaevola; PP picks Cicero

Personal: both plans pick 'Study', 'Crone of Bithynia' and 'Si Vis Pacem'.
LotL also picks 'Cult' and 'Brotherhood' (to improve our odds for 'Make Terms'), and prioritizes fighting the Roman legion with 'Res Publica'.
PP picks 'Scipians' (to improve our odds for 'Connect'), and prioritizes fighting the Greek forces with 'Para Bellum'. PP also picks 'City of the Kings of Asia', to take the opportunity to familiarize ourselves with Nicomedia and its role in the region.

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The primary difference between the two plans is how to deal with Cassianus. I picked 'Connect' because I want the young charismatic ambitious homo novus on our side, and I think we have a pretty good shot at making it work (our charisma's pretty good, we are idealists, we have a history of working with populares despite our optimate ties, and we brought Theo along to help us socialize). However there are some good reasons why we'd want to pick 'Make Terms', and if we do, we absolutely want to guarantee its success by picking 'Cult'.

Personally, I don't think 'Brotherhood' is necessary -- we already have the love of the legion, and we'd already be doubling down with the 'Cult' -- and I'd really prefer if LotL took advantage of the one-time-only actions while we're in Nicomedia. I also think that we have an opportunity here, now that Asiaticus has been sideline, to integrate the 'Scipians' with the rest of the legion, so I consider that to be another high-priority action that LotL is missing.

Vote Plan Publicola!
 
I don't consider Scipians to have high priority. It's an action that is entirely meant for us to learn more about Cassinus. Which might be useful since he is our rival.

"Integrating" them in the legion sounds like giving Cassinus a lot of new minions to fuck us over with, if he so wishes. I would personally prefer Marian's over this action, getting to know the officers of the other legions can useful, especially if we wish to do The General option later.
 
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"Integrating" them in the legion
We're not doing that though?
[] The Scipians: Unlike Sertorius, who traveled with a single slave, Scipio has brought along a veritable entourage of slaves, clients, friends, and cronies. These Scipians are largely plebian men of all stripes, and you attempt to integrate yourselves with them in order to learn something more of their new master, Cassianus, who seems to have become a focal point for them -- a novus homo who has risen from their ranks to lead a legion.
Says nothing about "integrating them into the legion."
 
"Integrating" them in the legion sounds like giving Cassinus a lot of new minions to fuck us over with, if he so wishes. I would personally prefer Marian's over this action, getting to know the officers of the other legions can useful, especially if we wish to do The General option later.
As much as I consider the Scipians a waste of our time, the vote doesn't say anything about integrating them into the legion (they already are part of the staff by virtue of being Asiaticus' and now Cassianus' entourage). It is about Atellus integrating himself with them.
 
But in abandoning our duties to go do things just because they impress the troops, that negotiating position exists entirly counter to the spirit of divided responsibilities that Make Terms embodies. We are going to him to discuss (relatively) fairly dividing roles for the good of the legion while claiming a new role and neglecting our official one.


As one of the Commanding Officers of the Legion it is also our responsibility to make sure that our men are duly quartered and sheltered. While it is our specific duty to see to the grievances of the men I see no reason to not address an already known issue such as the potential defects in the Palace, as if we don't deal with the repairs we will likely get complaints regarding it anyways.

I highly doubt the men will think us neglectful of our official duties considering that at the beginning of the Samnite War we also didn't choose A Law Beyond the Sword as one of our actions even though back then it was still one of our responsibilities.

[] A Law Beyond The Sword: The men often have simple issues, complaints, or grievances which they wish to address. As broad-striped tribune, it is your duty to see to these. One afternoon, you set up a table in the middle of camp and invite men to come air their grievances before you, and perhaps even raise a case against a fellow soldier.
[X] Plan Fidelis Constans
- [X] Court-Martial
- [X] A Social War
- [X] Coin Is Mightier Than The Sword
- [X] The Left Hand Strays
- [X] The Legate
- [X] The Old Teacher

It took until our arrival at Bovianum for us to take that option, so I don't see the dire need to take the option right now, especially as the Brother in Arms option seems to fall into one of the categories that would be covered by our Broad Striped Tribune Duties.

In the end the men already know how diligent we are in our duties, and I don't see the need for fear in not taking A Law Beyond the Sword when we've been fine with having done so in the past.

[X] Plan Roman Duty
-[X] Bovianum
-[X] A Law Beyond The Sword
-[X] Sic Semper
-[X] Write Home
--[X] Cicero
--[X] Proserpina

The primary difference between the two plans is how to deal with Cassianus. I picked 'Connect' because I want the young charismatic ambitious homo novus on our side, and I think we have a pretty good shot at making it work (our charisma's pretty good, we are idealists, we have a history of working with populares despite our optimate ties, and we brought Theo along to help us socialize). However there are some good reasons why we'd want to pick 'Make Terms', and if we do, we absolutely want to guarantee its success by picking 'Cult'.

Personally, I don't think 'Brotherhood' is necessary -- we already have the love of the legion, and we'd already be doubling down with the 'Cult' -- and I'd really prefer if LotL took advantage of the one-time-only actions while we're in Nicomedia. I also think that we have an opportunity here, now that Asiaticus has been sideline, to integrate the 'Scipians' with the rest of the legion, so I consider that to be another high-priority action that LotL is missing.

I agree with you that we should take one of the time sensitive actions while we're in Nicomedia, which is why I picked the Crone and Ptolemy, however I do think that you're selling the Brotherhood option short. Sure, while the Legion currently loves us, the fact that the vote option itself says that it would help to cement their loyalty for a roll that likely would not be a difficult one is one of the key reasons for why we should do it now as it is something that will pay immense dividends later on.

[] Brotherhood: You begin eating your meals with the men, to show them that you stand as one of them, not some aloof aristocrat. They care for you already, but this may well cement it.

As I've said before regarding Connect, as we don't even know much about Cassianus I think that blindly trying to make friends with him, when we've ostensibly been put into position as rivals, is something to bear in mind because it seems that people seem to be overestimating our chances of befriending him. The main point of contention I have with Connect is the fact that our backgrounds may be a bigger stumbling block than people believe. We're publicly an Optimate, coming from a privileged Patrician background, even if said background is that of a down on their luck Patrician family. We have no idea about Cassianus' opinions of us or the Optimates in general, and with his novus homo background, while we may be a private Populares, there's no certainty he knows that. As we are about to march off onto a campaign I would rather we deal with the issue of leadership right now rather than potentially deal with a struggle for it later if the connect option fails.
 
IMO, we actually DO need to take cult and brotherhood if we choose Make Terms. That and many other similar actions later, because a successful Make Terms roll does very little to bring Cassianus to our side for the inevitable schism with the Marians.

Now, Make Terms is not a BAD option, mind you. I'd say it's actually the most certain path for our time under Marius. But when we turn our legion around, if Cassianus is neither on our side nor overshadowed then our legion will split in half, which would be very ugly. The benefit of Make Terms to the pre-betrayal war is that it lets us postpone that choice and the accompanying risks. The downside is that when our time is up, we will have done less to either sway or defeat him.
 
It took until our arrival at Bovianum for us to take that option, so I don't see the dire need to take the option right now, especially as the Brother in Arms option seems to fall into one of the categories that would be covered by our Broad Striped Tribune Duties.
There is no need for it, but there will absolutely be synergy between the two options. Atellus will be easily able to tell the mood and the major complains of the two factions of he sits down and listens to them all (one should note that we took Law Beyond the Sword for the first time in combination with the barracks tyrant which led to a whole host of complaints Atellus could draw from in his verdict when he degraded that guy).
It will also prevent other conflicts from actually festering.

Also if I'm honest I fully expect Rufus to grab the architecti and fix the Palast. He had been handling the engineering tasks we had neglected at the siege of Nola.
 
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"Integrating" them in the legion sounds like giving Cassinus a lot of new minions to fuck us over with, if he so wishes.
According to the original action's text (last turn), Asiaticus basically brought his entire household with him on campaign -- "a veritable entourage of slaves, clients, friends, and cronies." This is in contrast to Sertorius, who brought only a single slave with him during the Samnite campaign.

Given that their patron and benefactor (Asiaticus) is now a non-entity, there's a chance that by reaching out, we might find allies or clients of our own among their number. Yes, Cassianus has become 'their focal point', but despite his personal charisma, he's largely untried and untested (he brags about the Battle of Tolenus to Marius' face?) and he's barely older than we are. There's a significant opportunity here, that won't last forever -- Cassianus will no doubt try to solidify his position with the others, so if we're going to try it, might as well be now.

Says nothing about "integrating them into the legion."
As much as I consider the Scipians a waste of our time, the vote doesn't say anything about integrating them into the legion
You're both right and this is on me, not on DkArthas:
to integrate the 'Scipians' with the rest of the legion
However, my thought was this: dragging a massive "entourage of slaves, clients, friends, and cronies" could be a significant hindrance to our running the legion. But, surely there are some among those number who might prove useful -- Asiaticus was a renowned orator, so perhaps one of his followers is a fine orator and can be sent to sway a minor town while we focus our effort on the bigger towns. Or perhaps one of Asiaticus' slaves has gladiatorial training and would be willing to spar with us to help us train, or help train the legion. There's a whole host of possibility here, and 'learn more about Cassianus' is only one of the benefits to this action. We'll also be learning about the dozens of men who will be traveling with us during this entire campaign.
 
I was referring to Publicola's Post above mine. He seems to want to "integrate the scipians with the rest of the legion". At least that's what I think he is saying?
I mean, some of them are going to become (assuming they already aren't) integrated with (parts of) the legion, yes. Not because of anything we do, but thanks to support from their patron, Cassianus. That's pretty much unavoidable, unless you actively want to contest Cassianus' influence, which neither 'Connect' nor 'Make Terms' does. Might as well get to know what kind of people they are, see if we can get a working relationship with them or perhaps if we can peel them off.
 
There is no need for it, but there will absolutely be synergy between the two options. Atellus will be easily able to tell the mood and the major complains of the two factions of he sits down and listens to them all (one should note that we took Law Beyond the Sword for the first time in combination with the barracks tyrant which led to a whole host of complaints Atellus could draw from when he degraded that guy).
It will also prevent other conflicts from actually festering.

Also if I'm honest I fully expect Rufus to grab the architecti and fix the Palast. He has been handling the engineering tasks we had neglected at the siege of Nola.

I don't doubt that the Law Beyond the Sword option would assist us in addressing the grievances of the men, I just don't see the issue that many seem to have if we don't take the option now. People are saying that if we don't take the issue, we would be abandoning one of our duties, even though prior history has shown that we were fine in not doing so previously as we addressed other more pressing needs at the time. I believe the same principle still stands here.

Furthermore I doubt the Law Beyond the Sword option will truly help us in understanding the Scipian Faction as for the most part it seems like the Scipians, the supporters of Cassianus, are those that he and his adopted father brought along as slaves and staff officers so if they did have any issues they likely wouldn't come to us but instead Cassianus.

Finally in terms of Rufus addressing the Palace issue, considering that this is what the vote option says:

Whatever actions you do not get to, Cassianus may.

Yeah, I doubt Rufus will solve this for us, and I don't think we should expect him to as in this case we know Cassianus is likely going to be active in dealing with these issues as well, hence why I think we should take the option before he does.
 
Furthermore I doubt the Law Beyond the Sword option will truly help us in understanding the Scipian Faction as for the most part it seems like the Scipians, the supporters of Cassianus, are those that he and his adopted father brought along as slaves and staff officers so if they did have any issues they likely wouldn't come to us but instead Cassianus.
Yes, and I don't care about the Scipians, so I'm not all too concerned about that.
Yeah, I doubt Rufus will solve this for us, and I don't think we should expect him to as in this case we know Cassianus is likely going to be active in dealing with these issues as well, hence why I think we should take the option before he does.
Rufus isn't going to stop taking his own actions just because Cassianus is now here. Besides, if your argument is that Cassianus will take the options we don't, then the same goes for Law Beyond the Sword. We basically allow him to be the face of law, and the open ear to all the small complaints the men have while we get a short time boost by fixing the palast.
 
Fair, I suppose, I have overestimated the danger of not doing our traditional job. Your plan may well be a decent set of tactics for overshadowing Cassianus while doing only minimal damage. He almost certainly isn't as good a lawyer as us after all.

But you are not trying to Overshadow him, you are trying to Make Terms. The path where the main benefit is that we don't engage in these displays of pointless one-upmanship. By deliberatly dropping our Legal duties (which we would be insane not to include as one of "our" jobs in the terms) in order to do a task far outside our specialty for the purpose of denying him the recognition, we break the spirit of any reasonably cordial terms in the turn they are established.
 
I picked 'Connect' because I want the young charismatic ambitious homo novus on our side, and I think we have a pretty good shot at making it work (our charisma's pretty good, we are idealists, we have a history of working with populares despite our optimate ties, and we brought Theo along to help us socialize).
Thing is, if Cassianus is open to cooperation, Make Terms can also bring him on our side. Yes, in best case, Connect can make us friends with him - but if he is open to being friends, I don't see us having much problem in establishing good working relationship, that we can then grow into friendship. And all our social bonuses would apply to both cases. So, in my eyes, best case Terms wouldn't be a lot worse than best case Connection - while being obviously superior if Cassianus doesn't feel cooperative.
 
Yes, and I don't care about the Scipians, so I'm not all too concerned about that.

Rufus isn't going to stop taking his own actions just because Cassianus is now here. Besides, if your argument is that Cassianus will take the options we don't, then the same goes for Law Beyond the Sword. We basically allow him to be the face of law, and the open ear to all the small complaints the men have while we get a short time boost by fixing the palast.

In this case the Law Beyond the Sword Option is redundant then as most of the votes already have us addressing one of the main issues dealing with the Sullan and Marian leaning factions within our forces, Brother in Arms. So I don't see any point in taking an option that is already covered by other options that deal with issues more specifically.

Also it's not my argument that Cassianus will take the options that we don't, its literally the wording of how the vote is framed:

Master of the Cohorts
In a single moment, you have gone from being merely the chief of the tribunes to effective co-commander of the entire Sixth Legion. It is a position born of necessity, not one earned, and yet you still feel pride in your chest at the thought. As the new master of the cohorts, you have many duties and expectations on top of your regular duties as tribune -- a position from which you have not been dismissed, and must still operate in. Whatever actions you do not get to, Cassianus may.

So working on the assumption that Cassianus will be taking the options that we don't, I don't mind if he takes the Law Beyond the Sword Option. From what we know of his history and background, being that of a New Man and having risen through the ranks because of his martial prowess I don't think he will be able to outdo us in terms of our skill at law. We've already shown the men that we are willing to lend an ear to them and hear their grievances if need be. However, in terms of priority I think assuring that most of our men have warmth and shelter is more important than hearing their complaints. If we reference Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, Repairing the Palace will do us more good as it addresses the most basic and physiological needs that almost everyone needs addressed, in that of their shelter and warmth. The men already know that we can and have been the face of the law before, having done tribunals and having listened to their issues before. I think you are selling the repair option rather short when the option itself addresses a key need that not only affects the men's morale but also their potential health, and by solving it we should more than make up for any loss by not taking the Law Beyond the Sword option.
 
Thing is, if Cassianus is open to cooperation, Make Terms can also bring him on our side. Yes, in best case, Connect can make us friends with him - but if he is open to being friends, I don't see us having much problem in establishing good working relationship, that we can then grow into friendship. And all our social bonuses would apply to both cases. So, in my eyes, best case Terms wouldn't be a lot worse than best case Connection - while being obviously superior if Cassianus doesn't feel cooperative.
Make terms might be able to bring him to our side, eventually, but we don't have forever; we have a limited window to befriend him or destroy him. Connect gambles on him being harder to beat than to persuade, while Overshadow gambles on him being harder to persuade than to defeat. In exchange for letting us wait and see which option has the lower DC (AND keeping the legion running no matter what, which is why it is the better option pre-betrayal) Make Terms effectively raises the DC of either choice by giving us less time to work on him and more obstacles to work through. The risk is still there, just delayed entirely to the schism in consequences.
So working on the assumption that Cassianus will be taking the options that we don't, I don't mind if he takes the Law Beyond the Sword Option. From what we know of his history and background, being that of a New Man and having risen through the ranks because of his martial prowess I don't think he will be able to outdo us in terms of our skill at law.
If this was your plan, to have him try and fail at Law Beyond the Sword, then why not just call it an overshadow plan? There's no way he's going to be happy with any set of terms that let us do this to him, and if there's no chance of him being on our side we need to break him. Overshadow IS a viable option, even if no-one has said much about it yet.
 
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If this was your plan, to have him try and fail at Law Beyond the Sword, then why not just call it an overshadow plan? There's no way he's going to be happy with any set of terms that let us do this to him, and if there's no chance of him being on our side we need to break him.

My plan wasn't to try and have him fail at Law Beyond the Sword, my plan was more oriented around doing the actions that would both bolster our support among the men, while also serving the best needs of the Legion. If we're working on the assumption that Cassianus will take some of the options that we won't, there's no guarantee that he will get to do all of the rest of the options that we didn't. As there were nine actions total in that category, if we assume that we and Cassianus each have the same amount of actions that would leave three actions that likely wouldn't be taken by either of us, so there's a chance that he wouldn't take the Law Beyond the Sword action otherwise. It's not that I chose not to take Law Beyond the Sword so that Cassianus could fail at it, it's because I chose to take it because I am not fearful of him succeeding at it better than have, especially with our history with the men.

Each of the actions I chose for my plan are actions that both help us and the Legion. Centurions and Officers need to be replaced, and it is our duty to do so. Everyone is in agreement in that regard as it would be us doing our duty while also earning the loyalty of the Officers. Similarly, Brothers in Arms would help us as we're uniquely suited for the role of mediating a dispute due our reputation and rapport with the men. It's in the best interests of the Legion for the Equites and Legionaries to not be at each other's throats. The fact that dealing with this issue would help us later down the line is just another reason to do so. Finally, ensuring that all of the Legion has proper shelter is not only a matter of winning their loyalty by solving a basic problem for them, it is also something that is needed to make sure that the Legion is performing at tip top shop. Even if Cassianus isn't the best Engineer, he doesn't need to be. This is something either of us could do, and I would much rather we take up the issue and be seen as supporting the men rather than him, at least in terms of our bargaining position.

The reason I am choosing not to overshadow him, even though our action choices are competitive in nature, is because I don't want to create conflict at the outset when there's no need to. At the same time, the action choices I chose were chosen to strengthen our negotiating position going into making terms. It would only be smart to negotiate from a position of strength after all.
 
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