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Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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Nurgle said:
Since my plan is not winning or getting votes and I would rather stay in Rome
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You do realize that staying in Rome is the one thing we are 100% guaranteed to not do, right?

We're a soldier, we go where we're ordered, the Sertorius vote is whether we will go with our mentor to serve in an area where we can build on our father's legacy or let the whims of fate decide where we're deployed.
 
Ashmaker said:
You do realize that staying in Rome is the one thing we are 100% guaranteed to not do, right?

We're a soldier, we go where we're ordered, the Sertorius vote is whether we will go with our mentor to serve in an area where we can build on our father's legacy or let the whims of fate decide where we're deployed.
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That's only if we don't resign from the sixth which is possible unless Romans laws are so arbitrary that it forces the tribunes to not go out and pass through the cursus honorum in politically advantageous ways by for example staying in Rome to practice oratory and law, making advantageous connections to the Roman elite which is absent in following to Sertorius' quixotic folly.
 
[X] The Quixotic Quest



I'm tentatively going for this but I can see the benefits of both. Nevertheless- if push comes to shove we can possibly betray Sartorius (he was betrayed OTL after all). Hell we're almost as popular as he is already.

That being said I'm intrigued at the possibility of helping Sartorius succeed if and when Sulla comes knocking- mainly because I despise Sulla and the Optimates and Sartorius' reforms seem like a possible way to avoid simply following Rome's OTL trajectory towards empire.
 
Pensive-Nerves said:
Going off the above we're only one point below Sertorious in reputation with the Sixth, so with him gone would that mean we would be de facto in charge of the Sixth Legion?
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If a fool or a weakling were appointed to command the Sixth, then we might well be able to de facto isolate him and be in charge as "the tribune."

If a strong and competent legate is appointed, we probably won't be able to pull that off, even if we're more popular with the troops.
 
ALanos said:
That's only if we don't resign from the sixth which is possible unless Romans laws are so arbitrary that it forces the tribunes to not go out and pass through the cursus honorum in politically advantageous ways by for example staying in Rome to practice oratory and law, making advantageous connections to the Roman elite which is absent in following to Sertorius' quixotic folly.
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Military service is considered absolutely vital in a Roman of higher office, even if the office has no direct military function. It's not a matter of law or arbitrariness, it's that the customs around the cursus honorum, and indeed Roman culture in general, are predicated on military service.
 
[X] Plan Stay the Course


So I want to stay with the Legion, if we go with sertoriuos will he take the sixth with him?
 
Telamon said:
It is worth noting that what Sertorius does in Spain, at least initially, is nothing exactly out of the way for a Roman governor. He wars with the African raiders, kicks the Celtiberians in the teeth, and sets about Romanizing Hispania.
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Thyreus said:
Depending how it goes we are merely postponing our involvement and already picking our side.
For the start we would be claiming land held by the Sullan faction.
And Sulla knows this because?
Why would we even want to, as long as we don't have to fight it?
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Yes, we are being proactive, rather than reactive. Whether or not that's a good decision is up to personal preference. I've already stated why I think doing nothing carries just as much, if not more, risk.

I'm assuming we'd be doing something productive during our time in Spain, seeing as how we have roughly two years before Sulla returned historically, and Telamon gave us a pretty good indication of what we'd be up to if we went with Sertorius. So, no, we wouldn't be claiming land held by the Sullan faction, we be fighting in either Africa or Spain.

We've openly told people of our populares ideals. We had a vote on telling Scaevola in particular early on, but I imagine others are aware at this point. It'd be pretty hard to hide, considering Atellus is an idealist who had made a bit of a name for himself by debating, where his world view would most certainly come up. I could be wrong, as I don't know if Telamon has specifically said anything about the subject, but I don't think we can safely assume that Atellus would be free of suspicion.

We wouldn't have to, I don't think we'd even want to, but a poster specifically brought it up, so I noted it.
Thyreus said:
This power base argument annoys me because Spain will be Sertorius' base, which we can inherit after his death. That can be a long way off still, or happening so early that we are in no position to fight a civil war on our own by youth alone.
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I'd agree that we'd be working for Sertorius, and he'd be profiting far, far more than us, but Telamon explicitly stated that there were veterans in Hispania that would back Atellus because of who his father was. That's not an insignificant starting position. We theoretically have years before we have to deal with the outcome of the civil war, regardless who wins, which means we have time to put ourselves in a position to influence things if Sulla comes knocking.

_Pluto_ said:
So I want to stay with the Legion, if we go with sertoriuos will he take the sixth with him?
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We will stay with the VI legion regardless of our choice. Edit: Oshha is right.

A friendly reminder to everyone that we're not staying in Rome if we turn down Sertorius' offer. We don't know where we'll end up.
 
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_Pluto_ said:
So I want to stay with the Legion, if we go with sertoriuos will he take the sixth with him?
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Potentially. He will want to take it with him and will push for it, but there is no guarantee.
Telamon said:
He will push to have the Sixth assigned as his army in Hispania-- and if they are not, well, there are favors he may call in to have your tribunate dismissed.
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Telamon said:
Realistically? He needs two legions to properly reclaim Spain from the Sullans. If he doesn't push for it however, then he may just end up with two Senate-levied legions of Marian veterans, especially as the Senate may be loath to lend him a legion already loyal to him if he doesn't push for it.
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Speaking of Sertorius pushing for it, @Telamon will Sertorius push for getting the Sixth assigned to him regardless of whether or not we accept his offer? If he does and we don't accept his offer, will that be a roll to determine if he is successful or will he automatically fail due to the players voting not to accept his offer. If he does push for it and he is successful in getting and we had refused his offer, would we still end up going to Hispania with him as part of the Sixth regardless of what decisions Atellus makes?
 
ALanos said:
That's only if we don't resign from the sixth which is possible unless Romans laws are so arbitrary that it forces the tribunes to not go out and pass through the cursus honorum in politically advantageous ways by for example staying in Rome to practice oratory and law, making advantageous connections to the Roman elite which is absent in following to Sertorius' quixotic folly.
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Theoretically, what we're doing right now is advancing on cursus honorum. Roman citizen must spend a decade serving in the army before being eligible for public offices, and I'm pretty sure that Tribunus Laticlavus is already the most prestigious office we could hope to achieve. However, like all other societal norms, in the Late Republic it is not unbreakable.
_Pluto_ said:
So I want to stay with the Legion, if we go with sertoriuos will he take the sixth with him?
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He will attempt to do so, and probably has a good chance of succeeding. It is explicitly not certain, though.
 
Meep said:
A friendly reminder to everyone that we're not staying in Rome if we turn down Sertorius' offer. We don't know where we'll end up.
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To be fair, there is a chance that we'll stay in Rome if Atellus turns down Sertorius' offer, something we won't have if we accept. That said, you are correct that isn't a choice of go to Hispania or say in Rome, it is a choice of go to Hispania or go wherever the Sixth goes.
Telamon said:
Realistically? He needs two legions to properly reclaim Spain from the Sullans. If he doesn't push for it however, then he may just end up with two Senate-levied legions of Marian veterans, especially as the Senate may be loath to lend him a legion already loyal to him if he doesn't push for it.

And yes, the VI legion, should it stay in Italia, could be used for quite literally anything Cinna or the Marians desire — whether that be garrisoning Rome, reinforcing Marius out east, or heading to Roman Gaul to tamp down the natives.

If it remains in Rome, it will certainly be on the front lines if the Civil War returns west — i.e, if Sulla wins it will be part of the Marian defense of Italia. Even if it goes to Gaul, it may well be called back for this purpose.

Of course, it could just as easily be assigned to the governors of Sicilia or Africa or one of the provinces.
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Meep said:
I'm assuming we'd be doing something productive during our time in Spain, seeing as how we have roughly two years before Sulla returned historically, and Telamon gave us a pretty good indication of what we'd be up to if we went with Sertorius. So, no, we wouldn't be claiming land held by the Sullan faction, we be fighting in either Africa or Spain.

We've openly told people of our populares ideals. We had a vote on telling Scaevola in particular early on, but I imagine others are aware at this point. It'd be pretty hard to hide, considering Atellus is an idealist who had made a bit of a name for himself by debating, where his world view would most certainly come up. I could be wrong, as I don't know if Telamon has specifically said anything about the subject, but I don't think we can safely assume that Atellus would be free of suspicion.
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Spain right now is held by Sulla's men, so before he'll do anything else, Sertorius will be booting them out, and we with him. He can't exactly build his power base in Spain before he rules it, after all.

We didn't explicitly tell anyone, besides Scaevola, which was as much character generation as anything else. Our public party is noted to be Optimates, and Atellus would be a poor debater if he couldn't debate from positions that he doesn't hold, and would be throwing dirt on his mentor besides. At best (worst?) Atellus is known as a more moderate Optimate, the kind that also holds general citizenship in higher esteem, which could and probably would be taken as youthful optimism and naivety rather than secret Populares leanings. Right now is a very strange time to hide your Populares alignment, after all.
 
Oshha said:
To be fair, there is a chance that we'll stay in Rome if Atellus turns down Sertorius' offer, something we won't have if we accept. That said, you are correct that isn't a choice of go to Hispania or say in Rome, it is a choice of go to Hispania or go wherever the Sixth goes.
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That's true, there is a chance we'd be stationed close to Rome.
 
What about our promises to the Pentri and our client Marius Himatus Censer? Running off to Spain does have it's benefits, but it's hard to imagine how we'd fulfil our obligations if we're essentially in voluntary exile. Do we renege on those promises? In doing so becoming an individual whose promises are worthless? It's hard to imagine it wouldn't be without repercussions.

Both plans are good, half the reason I haven't voted yet.
 
Pensive-Nerves said:
What about our promises to the Pentri and our client Marius Himatus Censer? Running off to Spain does have it's benefits, but it's hard to imagine how we'd fulfil our obligations if we're essentially in voluntary exile. Do we renege on those promises? In doing so becoming an individual whose promises are worthless? It's hard to imagine it wouldn't be without repercussions.

Both plans are good, half the reason I haven't voted yet.
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I mean, that's a problem regardless of whether or not we accept Serotrius' offer. We could easily end up in Germany or Africa if we turn him down. We're going to be relying on sending letters out to make anything happen, unless we can find a solution before we get sent out. We could ask Sertorius for help if we accept, or ask Scaevola if we turn him down. Sertorius just got thrown a triumph, so I imagine he has a fair amount of pull at the moment, while Scaevola has helped us in the past, so I imagine we can work something out regardless of our choice.

Telamon said:
Harvest [] You promise them Rome will not touch their harvest. The area is badly hit by the rebellion, in no small part due to your own actions, and so you promise them exemption from grain tax for the next year should they submit.

Manpower [] The men of the area, if they are not rebels or bandits, are likely dead or starving. You promise them exemption from levies and recruitment for the next year and a half, to let their boys reach adulthood before being sent off to die.

Rebuild the Area [] Though this was one of Rome's initial promises, the area still lies in ruins, with crumbled roads and shattered walls. You promise to patch up the failing infrastructure around Bovianum.

Censure their Rivals [] You promise to levy heavier taxes and punishments on the rivals and enemies of the Pentrii for having wholly opposed Rome.
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As a reminder to everyone, these are the promises we made to the elders of Pentri. With our client Marius Himatus claiming that he planned on moving to Rome after the war, so he may very well already be on his way. But I don't think that our obligation to him will be difficult to fulfill either way.
 
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Meep said:
As a reminder to everyone, these are the promises we made. With our client Marius Himatus claiming that he planned on moving to Rome after the war, so he may very well already be on his way. But I don't think that our obligation to him will be difficult to fulfill either way.
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Those were promises we made to elders of Pentri, which is entirely unrelated to our promise to help Marius Himantus with moving and establishing himself in Rome.

I imagine it would be easier to do so with Scaveola's connections rather than Sertorius' ones, but that probably wouldn't be a big problem, one way or the other.
 
Considering he is an enemy of Sulla, and not exactly Marius' favorite person, going with Serotrius might not be the safest option regardless who wins. Also, depending on who gets assigned to Spain with us, we might not even have much room to maneuver up the socio-political latter. There is also our promises made over the course of the campaign against the Samnites. I'd rather not develop a reputation or trait of breaking oaths. While that is common in this era, we should aspire to better.

That said, Spain has some really nice beaches, so....
 
Inserted tally

Looks like 23 to 21 with turning down Sertorius' offer in the lead, Mortenkam's vote seems to be counted separately for some reason and Nurgle and Darkcrest being counted in two votes.
Adhoc vote count started by Bullmoose on Jul 19, 2019 at 12:33 PM, finished with 193 posts and 45 votes.
  • 47
    [X] Plan Stay the Course
    [X] The Quixotic Quest
    [X] Plan Optimat Politics​
    -[X] Write-In: Discipline. It is said soldiers ignored Sertorius and his officers' commands to cease during the sack. There must be a punishment for such insubordination. You have the pay of all men who ignored orders heavily docked. Gold speaks louder than blood.​
    -[X] Write-In: Memorial. Have a stone monument erected outside the ruins of Nola, with an inscription in large letters, high enough off the ground that a man cannot easily reach it. "Here stood the city of Nola, spurning the outstretched hand of Rome. Here came the sword of Rome, in the year of Flaccus and Marius. Here fell the city of Nola."​
    -[X] The Cult of Mars: You attempt to solidify your small cult, turning it into an organization which may survive the transition from military life to civilian. Having brothers bound by bonds deeper than blood in the killing fields of the Senate may prove useful.​
    -[X] Expand Journal: You begin expanding your journal to include more than strictly military matters, such as political happenings or philosophical musings.​
    -[X] Make Connections: Ever aloof and arrogant, the aristocrats of the equtii, the knights of Rome, have come to respect you as a leader to look up to over the course of this campaign. You could try to make some deeper connections that might serve you well in the city.​
    [X] Accept Sertorius' offer. Scaevola will doubtless be angered by your implicit rejection of his patronage, but you will gain as a mentor a man who learned at the feet of Marius himself. You will fight in the dusky fields of Spain where your father earned his glory and his name, and learn of war at the feet of a master. Hannibal, Scipio, Sertorius -- some of Rome's most beloved and hated names have arisen in Spain. Might you follow in their footsteps?
    [X] The Feast of Mars: The soldiers of Rome celebrate a triumph in their own special way. Restricted for so long from excess and more extravagant pleasures, they release their desires in Subura, one of the seedier districts of Rome. Here, they employ women of the night, have mighty parties, and drink themselves stupid -- in the name of Mars, of course.
    [X] The Bacchanals: Rome's youngest and wealthiest throw their own extravagant private parties atop the Palatine Hill, great affairs of drinking, licentiousness, and all those vices which Romans have so long claimed to despise. Perhaps the eminent party of these Triumphal celebrations is that thrown by the eminent statesman Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a renowned optimate, and his friend, Marius' nephew-in-law, Lucius Sergius Catalina. You have been personally invited to one of these celebrations by the latt
    [X] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
    [X] The Pen Is Mightier: You spend some time with your friends, the lawyers Rufus, Atticus, and Cicero.
    [X] Plan Stay the Course​
    [x] Plan Roman Connection
    -[x] Refuse Sertorius' offer. You cannot leave Rome, and you cannot abandon the ties you have already made here to follow Sertorius on some quixotic quest to Spain. There is glory enough to be gained in Rome, if you know where to look.
    -[x] The Bacchanals: Rome's youngest and wealthiest throw their own extravagant private parties atop the Palatine Hill, great affairs of drinking, licentiousness, and all those vices which Romans have so long claimed to despise. Perhaps the eminent party of these Triumphal celebrations is that thrown by the eminent statesman Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a renowned optimate, and his friend, Marius' nephew-in-law, Lucius Sergius Catalina. You have been personally invited to one of these celebrations by the latter.
    -[x] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
    -[x] Mentor: You pay a visit to the Pontifex Maximus, your mentor, the old jurist Scaevola.
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