Yeah, no, I'm not buying that. You called it "character assassination." That wording was clearly a defense of Yuro, and I'm appalled to see it coming from a moderator of SV. Even this post is nothing but a string of whatabout-isms. IChase did a massive service to the community by publishing this, regardless of what argument prompted it.
World of Warships
- Thread starter Gamesguy
- Start date
- PC
- Location
- Void of Observation
If you want to call me a bigot, my post history exists on both Spacebattles and on Sufficient Velocity, Back up your words with some actual proof before trying to play judge and accuse me of having repungent morals. I can absolutely, completely, assure anybody present that I'm as clean any respectable member can attest to.
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Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Your "perfectly valid point" was a counterattack to claim the CCs who quit were in the wrong driven by the claim Yuro was booted as a scapegoat/because iChase did something wrong by pointing out Yuro was shockingly racist.
That's not a valid point.
Your arguments about how submarines are viewed cite youtube video likes rather than polls of people who actually play the game.
That's not a valid point.
What "valid points" are you making, even?
Total bs. Chase was provided those screenshots by a third party. Check your facts more closely next time.
The Last One
Here because reasons
Was calling out NoZoupForYou part of that consistency?
- Location
- Void of Observation
Everyone dunked on Zoup, long before the issues with his Twitter were discovered by Flamu. And let's get ths clear before someone comes over and makes another pass at my morality - Zoup getting removed was entirely his own damn fault and he should have been banned for his shit.
The point that I'm trying to make is that contrary to them doing this as a 'service' or out of their 100% moral goodwill, the most notorious CCs do this because they know it earns them outrage points and allows themselves to be held higher to a non-assailable moral standard.
Yuro had a long ass history of saying those slurs. The very picture had dates going back months. That either meant that IChase was sitting on the material for a long time and only chose to deploy it when he wanted to discredit the legitimate criticism of the CC's departing, or he got someone to find that material when he got mad. There's no way in hell that the timing was so surreptitious that someone handed that material to IChase just as the whole fiasco blew up.
I am highly disappointed about the whole thing with Yuro, as I did enjoy his videos a lot, but I can put this aside to condemn his behaviour. Nothing about Yuro had anything to do with people having an issue with him "calling the crowd out on how meaningless their actions were" it was all about his use of the n-word, homophobic slurs, the works on a private discord chat.
I don't think anyone has accused you of being a bigot (nor do I think you are one), but you choose a remarkably strange hill to die on for a mod in particular. Calling this stuff out is something that should be supported, as this sort of thing can become a serious problem if left unchecked. Remember the whole private-thread affair on our sister-site? To say that calling out racist behaviour in a semi-private environment is character assassination does start to leave me with concerns about your suitability as a moderator, as they may be called upon to deal with situations like this. While overall I still do believe you can perform the role of a moderator, I found your response concerning.
Harassment towards those who choose to stay is obviously unacceptable and I can easily condemn that as well.
I personally disagree with you on the whole LWM deal. It wasn't just this one thing, but the last year or so of behaviour. While out of context, she may sound like she was asking for the moon and ignoring a good-faith attempt at reconciliation, when you hear that this was the latest in a long line of frustrations and the reasoning behind LWM's final demand, it seems justified to me. We may have to agree to disagree on this last point.
I also disagree with the issue of miscommunication/mistranslation fiascos, after the sheer number of them, I am starting to call BS. In many cases, it seems that rather than miscommunication, they are simply using that as an excuse when an idea did not go over well rather than admit fault. Since the whole Porto Rico grinding scandal, I think in many ways, their behaviour has been going downhill. There is also the employee who tried to make everything his personal responsibility to deflect blame away from Wargaming, which is an incredibly scummy practice. They've just been doing so much anti-consumer behaviour with all of this loot-box stuff, often overly punishing grind-fests for ship lines, the corporate non-apologies, completely dumpstering their response to the Missouri incident, etc. that they've pretty much worn away all of my goodwill towards them.
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Except that iChase (to my understanding) was not on that server and was not cognizant of such remarks being made until someone had sent him screenshots. I'd include the tweets here, but I'm not sure on the exact rules for posting links to images with racial slurs and such for example of an individual being a reprehensible and insensitive human being.
The CCs are absolutely correct to be upset with recent changes by WG and their treatment by WG as well. That shit should not fly in any professional company.
Here's some sauce where he got the images:
The Last One
Here because reasons
I'm not entirely sure how the Zoup or Yuro are being held to a non-assailable moral standard here. Like, not using the n-word as a slur is a pretty low bar to clear in terms of moral standards. Hell, in this very thread you're assailing Flamu's moral standards.
I'm also a little bit surprised you can't imagine someone only sharing screenshots when an issue is blowing up. That seems like the perfect time to me.
- Location
- Void of Observation
That's incredibly ironic to hear in this context because I was the one who signal-boosted the affair by publicly posting it on SB General.
Yes you are correct, and to quote myself two years prior, I did that because I was worried about right-wingers organizing with mod assistance to push the atmosphere of the board into an environment that benefited them. But that's the thing. My conscience, and my attitudes with it, were purely for the health of the Spacebattles Forums in general. But that's the thing, my motivations back in 2019 were purely altruistic. Even today, I don't have anything to hide in relation to that incident.
But when in regards to the this situation, where there is money on the line, it makes me doubt the attitudes of the CCs, especially now that people are seeing you-know-who's example and realizing that dunking on Wargaming is a steady source of income, subscriber numbers and popularity. And in other cases, its also personal little feuds.
I've said it, but I will repeat it for posterity; Wargaming was right to remove Yuro and NZFY from the program. This point is non-debatable, and that they have done it should be encouraged. What again that I've said is that when the instigator and the cheerleaders - IChase, Flamu, whoever else - are also responsible for past shitty behavior and guilty of general toxicity, the hypocrisy is palpable. Like, I've said it over and over, IChase has his notoriety as a massive dramaqueen, and I don't think anyone needs to be reminded of Flamu's antics. That they are going after someone so hard just reeks of the aforementioned hypocrisy, while being a cover for their own skeletons in their own closets, and a chance for future views/likes/meme material/revenue, it smells of vultures just flying around looking for a good feast.
I meant the people doing the accusing.
I've defended WG a little, but its not to say that Weegee isn't fucking up - I go after them. I was really mad about the Missouri thing because it just felt like an obvious cashgrab, and I constantly make my frustrations about their policy when it comes to collabs and additional content. Even if I'm currently satisfied with the gameplay side of things I still have plenty to say about stuff. But thing is, if we are looking at Puerto Rico-level disasters, there haven't been that for a while, and while its true that monetization has been creeping in more and more, I personally don't think they have really impacted the people who play for free purely, which is who I'm most concerned about the most. My concerns have been about stuff where caveat emptor doesn't apply and the monetization is particularly obvious, which, again, Missouri, and the most recent Early Access.
Just to be clear on this. I just don't talk about it much because I think its done to death already, and by my peculiar stance on the whole monetization thing. I want them to improve, if at least so we can stop having all these dramas. But its clear that for a while its not going to happen, and people are right not to have faith.
Oh I like LWM's stuff, to be clear. I think what ever happened to her on the Yukon was a travesty. But again, the fallout just kind of made me frustrated with her. Wargaming is still spending resources on a concept she suggested, especially an obscure one like Huron. The final few communications where she claimed a WG employee personally harassed her while refusing to provide any details of any sort makes me wonder if something suspect's too, but all in all, its just tragic. I'm just not as favorable to LWM as the community is because of those final few questions, as much as I think of her better than the rest of the crowd.
In a vaccum, agreed. But their actions, attitudes and general histories don't give me any hope that they are doing this out of goodwill. And I think that in a scenario where everybody's moral linings are being taken to task, that some people have remained unassailable while making no small amounts of money of the drama is infuriating.
A link to the tweets is fine, although if you want to post the exact picture, please censor them at least.
Thank you for your faith, at least. I do take my duties and my position very seriously.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Honestly, the idea "oh all these CCs are bitching about nothing" is just completely galaxy-brain to me.
I was first-round NA Alpha. I got into this game before there was an actual NA server, and we had to test in Russian time when they turned it on because the servers didn't run constantly. This all sounds completely normal to me from my experiences in Alpha and Closed Beta. The shock of LittleWhiteMouse's description of the CC program is that there's a period described as good times, where WG was communicating effectively, where WG was working with them. Even in Alpha, we had a couple of revolts because WG wasn't listening to us, and a couple more in early Closed Beta. It wasn't until Open Beta was approaching that the NA community really felt they were being listened to sometimes, and it didn't always stay that way. WG would give the same excuses then they gave now, about miscommunications and mistranslations. My patience for that has been pre-abused. They were using it long before they shifted to an outright predatory revenue model.
I was first-round NA Alpha. I got into this game before there was an actual NA server, and we had to test in Russian time when they turned it on because the servers didn't run constantly. This all sounds completely normal to me from my experiences in Alpha and Closed Beta. The shock of LittleWhiteMouse's description of the CC program is that there's a period described as good times, where WG was communicating effectively, where WG was working with them. Even in Alpha, we had a couple of revolts because WG wasn't listening to us, and a couple more in early Closed Beta. It wasn't until Open Beta was approaching that the NA community really felt they were being listened to sometimes, and it didn't always stay that way. WG would give the same excuses then they gave now, about miscommunications and mistranslations. My patience for that has been pre-abused. They were using it long before they shifted to an outright predatory revenue model.
I believe Mouse's account of the CC program because I was one of my clan's representatives in the CST program (originally Clan Special Testing, though I think they've renamed it). The story went much the same way. It started off very productive, as they got many of the top competitive clans together and tried to figure out what their official competitive mode would look like. Some of the details are still under NDA, but I can say that Clan Battles would have looked wildly different without it. I was happy to work with the Lesta devs at that time - the communication was good enough, and they clearly cared about the game and about the competitive community's opinions. There were even rewards for players who participated. While they weren't great considering we were part-timing as both QA and focus group, I was happy enough with them.
Over time, however, the experience got worse. There were still plenty of things for us to test, but much of our feedback seemed to be discarded out of hand. (This was around 2019 to early 2020, so I'll let you imagine what we might have had strong opinions about at that time.) We had access to test ships, but it felt like we were just being farmed for spreadsheet data, and used interchangeably with Supertesters. Morale dropped across all of the clans involved, to the point where it was hard for clans to even muster a full team of testers. They even cut the rewards to a fraction of the previous levels after I left, too!
I eventually left the program when they asked us to agree to an updated NDA. One that, among other things, banned "nonconstructive" criticism of WoWs anywhere on the internet. Not just of things related to the program, but of the entire game. Obviously I refused to sign that one.
I'm pretty sure the program is still going, though my clan dropped out of it last year as we retired. I can imagine what the clans still in the program would have said about subs in competitive modes. Since they're in Ranked right now, I am sure that WG didn't bother to listen.
Over time, however, the experience got worse. There were still plenty of things for us to test, but much of our feedback seemed to be discarded out of hand. (This was around 2019 to early 2020, so I'll let you imagine what we might have had strong opinions about at that time.) We had access to test ships, but it felt like we were just being farmed for spreadsheet data, and used interchangeably with Supertesters. Morale dropped across all of the clans involved, to the point where it was hard for clans to even muster a full team of testers. They even cut the rewards to a fraction of the previous levels after I left, too!
I eventually left the program when they asked us to agree to an updated NDA. One that, among other things, banned "nonconstructive" criticism of WoWs anywhere on the internet. Not just of things related to the program, but of the entire game. Obviously I refused to sign that one.
I'm pretty sure the program is still going, though my clan dropped out of it last year as we retired. I can imagine what the clans still in the program would have said about subs in competitive modes. Since they're in Ranked right now, I am sure that WG didn't bother to listen.
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- Location
- ' New Eden
Well yeah, Massachusets, Georgia and Ohio are mainly Brawlerw because of their fast heals. With the new healing perk you can even spend more time healing than not.
But I think Pommern might actually be stronger. You get the baked in hull secondary accuracy increase, meaning actually good secondaries, a reasonable main gun battery and torpedoes combined with a hydro. Meaning you are somewhat of a swiss army knife in the ways you have to deal with opponents.
Tell that to Eve Online. No, the thing is that the content itself that is upcomming alsodecides the health of the game.
Yes, the post was literally "here is his criticism, but don't believe him because he said the n-word". This is really kindergarten levels of character assassination.
Like, you don't need to like him as a person for him to have valid criticism.
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Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
If you want more players, make a side game mode with compelling rewards to get players into it or something. Ranked is the competitive mode, it should never be the testing ground.
And I do not believe that anyone asking for more serious testing of submarines wanted them in Ranked.
Pommern is pretty great (especially because the hydro removes some risk when you push in) but I do not like her rear turret angles.
I also prefer close-in fighting with Iowa over Georgia, mostly because I want it to be fast and decisive, so I prefer having more main guns available.
- Location
- ' New Eden
Ranked being competitive? Then why the fuck is there always someone on my team afk? Isn't it more of a meme that ranked is "competitive"?
At this point it's less testing and more "this is what we will shove down your throat".
Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
So, for CB, they are now restricting clans to two crawling smokes per team and banning Ryujo and Löwenhardt. This is entirely unsurprising because people predicted a smoke-fest, Löwenhardt is broken and the IJN carriers are always the most popular (because they are great all-rounders, which noone quite is). Some of these choices (especially Löwenhardt) should really have come in before, while others are really annoying (WeeGee doesn't seem to think they have to do anything about carrier balance, but they will probably keep banning the Japanese ones from future seasons too). As someone whose only carrier line is Japanese, that annoys me a lot because I don't actually want to grind up another line to be able to bring one to CB.
Spherical_Light
Likely Illuminating a room near you
- Location
- NW US
So, the only thing I don't really like about the new ranked system is that its tied to Level 6 at first. And I've got scant few ships to play with at that level. I had more fun when ranked started at T8. I was using arp Maya alot and had great fun with that one, now... Well, tbh, I'm one of those sorts of players who just plays for fun, and I enjoy ranked because there's less people involved. I'm no real fan of pvp games, but I don't mind warships that much. It can be quite fun. Especially if you dont bother paying heed to all the social shenanigans going on.
There was debate similar to this lootbox issue for SWTOR when they came out with the Hutt Cartel stuff. So many lootboxes.... Spent way too much money at the time, but that's not here and back in the past.
Anyway, @MagicianX26 I liked/got used to your previous avator, just thought you needed a change?
There was debate similar to this lootbox issue for SWTOR when they came out with the Hutt Cartel stuff. So many lootboxes.... Spent way too much money at the time, but that's not here and back in the past.
Anyway, @MagicianX26 I liked/got used to your previous avator, just thought you needed a change?
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's really not the case, though. What determines a game's long-term health are:
1) How fun the game is, and how fun it continues to be the more you play it
This is a big one. You can have tons of content for a game, but if it isn't that fun and gets stale pretty quickly, that content won't matter. There are also a LOT of games that have had no new content for decades, yet still see plenty of people continuing to play it (either frequently or occasionally) and enjoy it--see games like Super Mario 64, Starcraft Brood War, Warcraft 3 (though Blizzard damn near killed the game with its Demaster), Zelda A Link To The Past, etc.. This is, in fact, the basis for remasters and remakes--you just make the game easily accessible for current generation hardware/software with some updated graphics (and maybe a few Quality of Life improvements), and it sells really well, because it's simply a very good game.
2) Good caretakers (if needed in the first place)
If you have a multiplayer game, the multiplayer experience is going to depend a lot on whether or not there are people safeguarding it from hackers, harassers, griefers, etc.. In games where there is no official caretaker, and privately owned servers are the norm, this can still work just fine, because those privately owned servers have their own moderators/owners that can and will intervene if someone is caught cheating or griefing or whatever.
On the other side of the coin, you get Titanfall 2, where one disgruntled former-employee of the developer used his knowledge of how the multiplayer's back-end works to relentlessly ruin the servers for players (while also backing off the moment any sufficient attention was being drawn from news or the developers), killing what would have been a very fun and healthy playerbase.
3) Accessibility, both in terms of buying/accessing the game and in terms of learning how to play it
A game is going to be better off in the long-run if it is relatively easy to get a hold of it yourself and play it. This is a big part of why emulation is so incredibly important--the number of games that are more or less unplayable or inaccessible without emulation communities/software is staggering. Backwards compatibility for consoles becomes very sketchy at best if you go back more than one generation. These days, it's all about remasters being sold at full price (which is insane).
On the flipside, accessibility in terms of learning how to play is important, too. Super Mario 64 is very easy to get into on top of easy to get running on your own PC. This means that any fan of Super Mario Odyssey can easily pick up an emulation of SM64 and have little trouble learning that game.
4) Modding! Modders are essential for a game's long-term longevity, because modders will continue to work on a game LONG after the developer will even consider working on it. Modders will, in fact, tend to put out some amazingly high-quality stuff over time. My favorite example of this is Freespace 2--the developers made the entire game and its engine open source after they lost the license to publish more games about it. The community then spent almost two decades not only adding a ton of content, features, and improvements into the game, they've been building up the game engine tremendously ever since. The best stuff that community has put out is absolutely phenomenal and actually puts most modern games to shame.
This is completely false. WoWs has suffered from a number of problems as Wargaming has added more ships and mechanics into the game. Carriers have only become even more of a horrible problem for gameplay--the rework was disastrous from a number of angles: the entire intent was to boost the proportion of players playing carriers, with all other concerns secondary. As a result, when their rework failed to make the class more popular by itself, they buffed the hell out of the class until it got more popular. This came at the expense of everyone else, because now almost everyone's AA was garbage, carriers had an unlimited number of planes, a single squadron of planes could attack one ship three times in a row, and carriers themselves went from very squishy targets to the hardest ships to sink in the entire game.
The increasing prevalent of Radar has, when combined with carriers now having little reason to fear aggressively spotting DDs and the RPF skill, made DDs more frustrating to play than ever. At the same time, light cruisers are an increasing rarity at higher tiers because they tend to get annihilated by battleships, dumpstered by carriers, or outspotted and flanked by DDs. Battleships play even more passivley and cowardly because carriers, HE spam, and torpedoes that specifically dumpster them (deepwater torpedoes, very high-speed torpedoes, etc) will punish them heavily if they push in without knowing exactly what they're doing.
Wargaming has a long and stories history of treating its CCs horribly. Remember that time when they used the DMCA feature on Youtube to take down a criticism video by one of its CCs via copyright strike--something that is supposed to be illegal?
Remember when they continue to ignore everything the CCs say, regardless of the circumstances or reasoning presented? Even after the CCs are proven correct time after time?
Goddamn, that is a hell of a take. "Wargaming continues to treat its community like shit, and even the most token of 'efforts' that are themselves broken promises are not received with universal praise, thus they should not even try to make any effort at all, ever" is spoken like a true bootlicker.
This is a company that puts gambling into a game that is marketed for children. This is on top of continually worsening the game to shoehorn people into paying more for things they already didn't have to pay for in the first place. And, y'know, retroactively making the things they had bought a LOT worse--not for balance reasons, but for sheer negligence and apathy.
Man, it's incredible to see you accuse the CCs of victim-blaming while simultaneously victim-blaming the CCs. Not to mention how incomprehensibly wrong you are about the character and actions of the ones you name! Flamu is not significantly toxic, and his arguments are rock-solid (and he has proven, over and over again, how he has predicted EXACTLY what would happen, both in terms of the results of Wargaming's actions, and in terms of what Wargaming is going to do and why). Flambass being more toxic than Flamu is just hilariously wrong on so many levels. Indeed, he's the kind of guy who hates negativity, but finds negativity from Wargaming and their practices just impossible to ignore. iChase is a pretty easy-going guy; it takes a lot to make him act any differently. Calling iChase's exposing of Yuro's character (which iChase himself had only just learned at that time) on a more public level was absolutely the right thing to do--a blatantly racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic asshole should never be allowed to remain a CC. Yuro himself admitted that he said all of those things.
RU going into complete radio silence is a laughable take, given that one of RU's CC's was recently kicked from the program after he revealed (through publicly available information) that Wargaming's staff combined had only played 230 games in the past six months, proving that Wargaming indeed barely even plays their own game (and thus, in refusing to listen or care about the feedback from the CCs who DO play the game more than anyone, inevitably means that they are totally out of touch with the game itself and what is good or bad for it). Not only did they kick him out, they then used a promo-code the day afterwards that was a very obvious "fuck you" to that guy specifically.
Considering that Flamu, Flambass, iChase, and Jingles all said (in the very videos covering the subject) to NOT harass or attack the CCs who decided to stay (and explained why it would be wrong to do so), I'd say that attacking the CCs who left over it is plain wrong.
Gambling (ala "loot boxes") in games is flat-out wrong and should not be "okay" under pretty much any circumstances. It's predatory and exploitative of one of humanity's major psychological vulnerabilities. It's anti-consumer, bad for the game in every way, and ALWAYS tempting any profit-driven company to just push further down that slippery slope.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
They should remove the ship because its current incarnation is an insult to LWM's and Chobittsu's efforts.
I have to disagree on a couple of things:
I've heard the percentage of players playing CV has dropped since then, maybe even below pre-rework numbers. I don't have the data on that, though, and can't remember the site that used to host it. So, I'm not sure if it's actually true. Does anyone have the real data?
I don't have any particular issues with iChase, at least. He seemed alright, but I didn't know him that closely.
All the changes you're describing happened during the development of the rework or in the weeks afterward. The CV rework was still popular then, in the sense that it was getting more players than pre-rework. They've mostly been dropping CV power in the days since then, with the most recent change being the delay and machine-guns on rocket planes. It's just that the ability to stay safe while spotting and striking across the map at 10x the speed of everyone else is still absurd. The class needs either more interaction or far less speed/range, but WG painted themselves into a corner with the single-squad action model.
I've heard the percentage of players playing CV has dropped since then, maybe even below pre-rework numbers. I don't have the data on that, though, and can't remember the site that used to host it. So, I'm not sure if it's actually true. Does anyone have the real data?
Flamu was toxic from day 1 of the CC program, and his relationship with Wargaming was never healthy. They'd have dumped him years earlier if he wasn't their biggest content creator by an order of magnitude. And they'd have been right to do it. (Even years later, I still see people following his example and thinking it's okay to call other players "mongs".) His habit of assuming the worst from WG is right more often than not, though.
I don't have any particular issues with iChase, at least. He seemed alright, but I didn't know him that closely.
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- Location
- ' New Eden
Oh boy, you should never ever play Eve Online in that case if you think that's being toxic.
Don't forget that some BB's don't even have the option to interact with submarines in any real way. The Germans, Russians, Italians and the secondary line of the Americans don't have any ASW option. And those are the ones that usually push in, so they'd face submarines more. Meaning you are again discouraged from pushing in.
I met iChase at the WoWs event in Buffalo back in 2019 with a couple people. iChase is a super-cool dude, very nice person. There's not much of an act between his 'teaching' video versus his actual IRL personality.
- Location
- ' New Eden
Did IChase actually post his findings and Yuro's opinion on the CC incident side-by-side? If so, that is pretty much poisening the well. Also a very rudimentary attempt of discrediting his opinion by using character evidence.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Yuro posted his own take on the CC incident.
- Location
- ' New Eden
Yes, I know that. But on Reddit those two things were literally combined in one post. And that's called poisoning the well because character evidence and factual findings/opinions are two seperate things.