Why Yes, I am an Evil Lair. (Worm/Dungeon Core) (No Longer A Quest)

Heads or Tails? (Vote after reading Chapter 9)

  • Heads!

    Votes: 85 62.5%
  • Tails!

    Votes: 51 37.5%

  • Total voters
    136
  • Poll closed .
AUTHOR REQUEST:

Please no Cauldron Morality derail in my happy dungeon murder thread?

Yes, Cauldron exists, and had controversial means to a difficult end with bad intel.

There is no point beating that particular dead horse any further.
Agreed. Let's focus on the basics.
For example, will out new Dungeon friend be able to make use of any parahuman shards he "collects", one way or another? Will Coil figure out that he's screwed? Will Nichole become the new floor boss for our growing dungeon? Will Lung ever put on a shirt?

Oh wait- wrong thread for that last one.
 
His Tatt- no, the traitorous bitch, was still in the clutches of that DAMN statue that thinks it's a sparkly magical FUCKING NILBOG. Well, he survived the fucking Goblin King, and a DAMN ROCK isn't going to take what is his away from him.
I really like this bit. Too few people ever try to incorporate Calvert's past into his current character. Really looking forward to the next chapter. Don't let the Lisa-hate get to you, there are just some very disturbed people that like to post here and on SB.
 
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Please no Cauldron Morality derail in my happy dungeon murder thread?

Yes, Cauldron exists, and had controversial means to a difficult end with bad intel.

There is no point beating that particular dead horse any further.
We like beating dead horses.

Besides, it is quite a point with this particular power set. Dungeon Core can create something from nothing, but it isn't magical bullet that kills the Scion, it is not a perfect conservation of powers either.

Will Accord figure out that he's screwed?
Not quite. He makes plans with information available, power doesn't collect data for him, which is skewed by Coil flawed data collection.

Depends what Coil asks of him. If destroy the Core, he will need a really big bomb delivered to the dungeon ....

Will Lung ever put on a shirt?
He better! Sufficient Velocity will not tolerate this public indecency!
 
Depends what Coil asks of him. If destroy the Core, he will need a really big bomb delivered to the dungeon ....

That was just moving up the arrival of the Travellers. Moving Noelle would have been... well, quite difficult. It's worth a minor plan from Accord to streamline getting someone so.... unsymmetrical... out of his city.
 
That was just moving up the arrival of the Travellers. Moving Noelle would have been... well, quite difficult. It's worth a minor plan from Accord to streamline getting someone so.... unsymmetrical... out of his city.
Speaking of which ...

Can Dungeon Core even help her?

Sure, there are people who will accept virtual immortality in exchange for servitude. But Noelle? She only wants to stop being the monster. Dungeon can reshape matter at will, but can it rewrite powers? Because Noelle's is broken and not working as intended.

It may however count under "all binds are broken" clause.

Still, hell, I can imagine how Tattletale talks to the team and offers them job. "Do you have a minute to talk about our Lord and Savior?"
 
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Now I'm waiting for the queen of escalation (taylor) to contract. Skitter with bug control is bad enough. Bug control with the advantages of a contract is kinda terrifying.
 
How did PtV know spending time near the mana fountain would make it able to predict better?

PtV: "Huh, this thing is creating an energy that I have never encountered before. Better make my host hang out until I understand it. You never know, it may be useful."

Sure, there are people who will accept virtual immortality in exchange for servitude. But Noelle? She only wants to stop being the monster. Dungeon can reshape matter at will, but can it rewrite powers? Because Noelle's is broken and not working as intended.

I have plans for that.

No, I'm not telling.
 
Ok, so first of all, the only way that I can see Coil's precognition working is with accurate models of people's minds, so that it can emulate their behavior in real time. With other thinker powers like Tattletale, his shard pings the other shard with the stimuli to pick up the result as if the Thinker in question had received those stimuli, and then integrates their reactions into the simulation.

When Coil was initially sending in his squad with Tattletale, his power was initially modelling the first room of the dungeon as it had been in the initial reports and memory of the surviving merc, as well as pings off of Tattletale's shard to model her actions, since Mana is currently an outside-context problem for it, at least until his mana saturation increases. Since he's well outside the range of the Dungeon, that's not going to happen very soon. That meant that at first, it assumed that the grinder was the same, and so reported lots of deaths. As Tattletale absorbed more ambient Mana, the pings off her shard for the information that she would have gotten grow more and more divergent, as her intuitive shard decides that more and more things would have changed as it gets more information on how Mana works. As such, after enough time passed, Coil's power decided that it could not accurately model what was actually occurring in the cellblock, and so when he split the timeline, it could either fail to split the timeline at all, or have a less than optimal result in the prime timeline. Since his goal was to gather accurate information, rather than conserve losses, the shard chose the second option, and when instructed to close the spare timeline, it does so, closing the one that gathered less information.

This may be assigning too much agency to a shard, but it's the only way I could see the circumstances going.

An alternative option to do it would be that once a magical contract is signed, it no longer matters which timeline Coil would prefer, as that contract takes preference and cannot be undone.
 
PtV: "Huh, this thing is creating an energy that I have never encountered before. Better make my host hang out until I understand it. You never know, it may be useful."
Incidentally as far as I know PtV falls under the category of checking out the future via physics hacks rather than simulation, so it works...differently.
Basically Contessa files her shard a specific future, the shard finds that future, and then backtraces what steps must be taken to merge that future with this present.

As for Coil's power...it actually did similar to this scenario in canon. He got bad data off Dinah by using timeline savescumming to get extra questions, so he actually got the Simulated Future answer rather than the Accurate Lookahead Future
 
As for Coil's power...it actually did similar to this scenario in canon. He got bad data off Dinah by using timeline savescumming to get extra questions, so he actually got the Simulated Future answer rather than the Accurate Lookahead Future

I've noticed that as the fanon grows stronger and stronger in people's minds, powers seem to get a bit overblown. Tattletale is perceived as having all the correct answers all the time, when in Canon, she got bad information more often than not, especially when having bad information would lead to more conflict. Coil is seen as a savescumming Mastermind, rather than someone who's living two lives constantly, and picking which one is best, which actually has no time travel at all. It's only after he picks up Dinah that he become so difficult to beat, because the two Powers interacted so well, and even then, there were issues, cause a percentage probability is not a certainty.
 
When people say "save scumming" with Coil, they're really just referring to his tendency to approximate that by "waiting" in one timeline and "going" in another, and dropping the "go" timeline if he didn't like the result.
 
Oh, I considered that, but for it to be worse, one has to ask: what's happening? How is "wait 30 minutes more" leading to something worse for Coil than "send in the mercs?"
And then they treat it like a computer game save-reload instead of understanding that time marches on an other things may happen while Coil waits.

If he has tried two times and failed then an hour has passed. If the issue is difficult to deal with and he has to try sixteen times then eight hours have been spent waiting and it's time for dinner.

It is not a technique he can afford to employ all that often or to the level fans believe he can.
 
And then they treat it like a computer game save-reload instead of understanding that time marches on an other things may happen while Coil waits.

If he has tried two times and failed then an hour has passed. If the issue is difficult to deal with and he has to try sixteen times then eight hours have been spent waiting and it's time for dinner.

It is not a technique he can afford to employ all that often or to the level fans believe he can.

Mind you he does use it to squeeze out Dinah answers in canon. He doesn't even need to collapse the timelines to get the payout
 
What I wonder though is why he would send small scouting groups that keep getting killed rather than send in a full assault? As long as he didn't intend to keep that timeline he wouldn't lose much of anything by doing that and he would have better odds of getting back information about the enemies strength and development.
 
What I wonder though is why he would send small scouting groups that keep getting killed rather than send in a full assault? As long as he didn't intend to keep that timeline he wouldn't lose much of anything by doing that and he would have better odds of getting back information about the enemies strength and development.

Coil doesn't actually have that many expendables. If he commits the lot of them they might all die, because many Shaker options don't give a damn how many dudes you send, and they're human enough to refuse if he sends them to certain death.
 
Coil doesn't actually have that many expendables. If he commits the lot of them they might all die, because many Shaker options don't give a damn how many dudes you send, and they're human enough to refuse if he sends them to certain death.

Sure, he doesn't want to do that if he believes he needs to keep that timeline... But up until now he hasn't had a reason to assume he couldn't just send in the attack in a separate timeline. Yet it seems he instead chose to send a small scouting party with TT quite a few times. So I wondered why he didn't decide to send in a full assault to get different data at some point.
 
Sure, he doesn't want to do that if he believes he needs to keep that timeline... But up until now he hasn't had a reason to assume he couldn't just send in the attack in a separate timeline. Yet it seems he instead chose to send a small scouting party with TT quite a few times. So I wondered why he didn't decide to send in a full assault to get different data at some point.

The mercs will treat small unit deployments as routine. Full assaults will make them act odd
 
I've noticed that as the fanon grows stronger and stronger in people's minds, powers seem to get a bit overblown. Tattletale is perceived as having all the correct answers all the time, when in Canon, she got bad information more often than not, especially when having bad information would lead to more conflict. Coil is seen as a savescumming Mastermind, rather than someone who's living two lives constantly, and picking which one is best, which actually has no time travel at all. It's only after he picks up Dinah that he become so difficult to beat, because the two Powers interacted so well, and even then, there were issues, cause a percentage probability is not a certainty.
Tattletale made a strange leap of logic in this story too, when she called a liquid flowing out of mana tap a mana potion, because as at this point she had no reason to believe in magic and by extend, mana potions. Mana as a term has been brought up in the conversation later on, by dungeon, where Tattletale initially refuses the idea of magic despite she made a reference to clearly magical system earlier on.
 
Sure, he doesn't want to do that if he believes he needs to keep that timeline... But up until now he hasn't had a reason to assume he couldn't just send in the attack in a separate timeline. Yet it seems he instead chose to send a small scouting party with TT quite a few times. So I wondered why he didn't decide to send in a full assault to get different data at some point.
This is actually an interesting question.

The mercs will treat small unit deployments as routine. Full assaults will make them act odd
Irrelevant. In FullNothingness's postulation, Coil is never intending to keep that timeline. It's like timelines he forms to ask Dinah questions "for free" (at least until he learned that didn't work so well) and timelines he forms to engage in recreational torture: he knows ahead of time he's ditching it, so he can do whatever he wants in it, and darn the consequences.

So, here, he mobilizes his entire force, pulling everything that won't take inconveniently long to pull in, even abandoning normal defenses. (This is akin to recreationally blowing up his base just for fun in a throw-away timeline. Well, and to test to make sure the self-destruct works as intended.) Then he sends that in in a coordinated recon-and-destroy mission. His preliminary expectation is that he'll overwhelm it, and probably suffer more losses than he wants to, but that it'll still come out with the end of the Cape he's got in there.

Where this gets particularly interesting, considering what we've been told about what his power knows, is that his power can't predict the Cape's choices all that well, since it only knows he can make and control zombies, and add some turrets. Unlike "normal," it doesn't have stupidly-accurate knowledge of everything going on sufficient to model people's actions even if they're new to Bet and new to their powers. (This is one of the reasons, incidentally, that I think the precog-Coil explanation fails to hold water, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.) So it can't tell what the "dungeon Cape" will do. It doesn't even really "get" that he's a "dungeon."

Therefore, if Coil mobilized his forces in a throw-away timeline for a full-scale raid, his power would model the same turrets-and-zombies foyer it has been for the scouts. In this scenario, the foyer is overwhelmed by numbers, though not as quickly as Coil might have thought due to the known property of the Cape animating the dead as new zombies.

Tactics would turn to kill-and-burn, waiting for zombies to form, and kill-and-burning those, until no more were in evidence. Then the forces would finally move in to the old Core Room and find the immobile Cape. It might find the Cape in some other, more defensible room, if it models that it has its zombies move it, but the knowledge of the Cape's reformat-of-terrain power is, I believe, hidden from Coil's shard as of yet. (Revealing the room that was behind the old core room changed that, but that happened in this most recent chapter.)

So, if Coil sent in his full forces to get all the info he could, his power (not knowing there was a chance of making errors) would model for him a very, VERY inaccurate picture of the space the Cape controls. This means that, when Coil finally did something involving the Cape in a kept timeline, what he'd see happen would be wildly different than what his power predicted would have happened.

I presume that, despite playing out the full prediction for Coil at the beginning so he can make his choice, it doesn't actually puppet him into acting in ways that are incongruous with what's actually happening; it wipes his memory of both then replays the thrown away timeline for him while letting him live out the kept timeline. So what Coil would see here is "normal" to him. He'd find the dungeon space changed DRAMATICALLY in possibly very short time, from his perspective.

Remember: he thinks he's kept tabs on it in roughly real time, thanks to scouting in the thrown-away timelines that had entirely the wrong layout. So when he comes in shortly after his last scouting throw-away timeline, his power and he are both surprised by the ACTUAL state of the space. It seems to Coil to have changed completely since his last scout, when in reality, his scoutings have been increasingly inaccurate as the dungeon changed without his or his power's knowledge.

This also means that whatever the predicted-kept-timeline was is changed dramatically. It is highly unlikely that Coil-in-the-real-timeline will choose to end the other timeline at the same time he would have.

How his power chooses to proceed from here leads to a number of possibilities.

  • It could choose to collapse the unkept timeline immediately, because it doesn't want Coil to think that he actually has the ability to choose it, still.
    • This would make Coil think the Cape's dramatic change of the cell blocks has also somehow forced him to select THIS timeline now.
  • It could choose to wait until he tries to collapse this timeline, keeping the one where he hasn't exposed himself to the Cape. Then collapse the "wrong" one.
    • This is closest to what has happened, here, except that in this version, Coil's power made the choice to keep the "wrong" timeline from the get-go to jump-start info-gathering.
    • In this version, Coil therefore still behaves much as he will here.
  • If Coil doesn't collapse any timelines until after it had predicted he "would have," it has two more choices:
    • It can collapse the predicted-dropped timeline (whether Coil wants to or not) as soon as it had predicted it would. This response seems the most "Shard-like," to me, because it's following through on simplistic programming rather than making careful choices to keep up a charade.
    • Or, it can resume the prediction algorithm to keep simulating the other timeline until such time as Coil chooses to drop one or the other, at which point Coil probably drops the "wrong" one (from his perspective).
  • It could immediately try to preserve the charade that Coil is seeing two timelines in real time and actually has a choice at any moment (rather than it already being made), and start making things to VERY WRONG in the timeline it's just been playing out a simulation of. This would entail making up believable bad things that he's only encountering in the sim timeline leading up to actually killing him in it, so he feels forced to drop it.
    • This would lead to him wondering what went wrong in the now-dropped timeline, since nothing of the sort happened in the kept timeline, hypothetically.
    • This would also highlight the silliness of emulating the power Coil thinks he has with a precog power.

Tattletale made a strange leap of logic in this story too, when she called a liquid flowing out of mana tap a mana potion, because as at this point she had no reason to believe in magic and by extend, mana potions. Mana as a term has been brought up in the conversation later on, by dungeon, where Tattletale initially refuses the idea of magic despite she made a reference to clearly magical system earlier on.
Nah, this one works out, because not only has Tattletale doubtless been exposed on some level to video games with "blue mana potions," her Shard certainly can pull that reference from the communal Shard Database to provide that potential pattern to match.

One way to play Tattletale's power right is to ask yourself if a person with expertise in a field could leap to a particular conclusion. If there aren't a bunch of alternate, equally-likely professional judgments that different professionals might leap to, her power will latch onto the one that matches the context and observed details the best.

It only fails on this if Tattletale herself has no point of reference. As long as she has a concept of "mana potions," and a gamer might look at that fountain and immediately think, "That looks like mana potions from a video game," her power can put those together for super-intuition. Where it would run into trouble is if it also pattern-matched to "window/toilet cleaner." And since it's a bathroom, it probably would have context on "toilet cleaner," but would still likely give her "mana potion" based on the contextual presence of zombies (she heard them singing and was told about them) and on the fact that it's bubbling OUT of the sink rather than being used to wash things away IN it.

Remember, her power is vulnerable to being wrong. If she didn't have "it's a Cape producing this" on top of everything else, her power might conclude that it's meant to LOOK like mana potion but could be toilet cleaner or windex. Unless her own senses gave it enough to chemically analyze and say, "Nope, doesn't smell like cleaner." Though if her power can work off her senses that sharply, even if she doesn't experience it as super-senses, she probably has bloodhound-like ability to track people based on "intuitive" sense that their "presence" is stronger in a particular direction, as well as to detect poisons and the like "intuitively."
 
Odd as in, they might not follow orders. Especially as it turns out they know some guys got killed already.

Mercenaries are a pain since they tend to bug out right when you lose control of things

From the perspective of the mercenaries only one incursion has gone wrong before this chapter. It makes a fair bit of sense for scouting to be followed by a assault. And Coil likely has put in quite a bit of effort to make sure his troops follow his orders.
 
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