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What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

DeusExMachina said:
It has already had two civil wars. It most definitely not a stable country. And has a republican insurrection controlling the countryside. It is most certainly not a stable country.
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Yeah but that was resolved with time, a monarchy would ensure that as long as they stayed as the ruling class they would fight, and as history shows us monarchies are basically a dying off thing.

Also talking of explotation of the native resources while the colonies gain nothing as a good thing is very weird.

Also while taking into account current events make it so saying that something is highly improbable a lie, the story having a /all_enemies_die feels like a cheap plot device.
 
Oh there's still a few vestigial ones but give it enough time and monarchy will be in its proper place. A museum. Next to the dinosaurs. Interesting things, but extinct.
 
Neal Caffrey said:
Also talking of explotation of the native resources while the colonies gain nothing as a good thing is very weird.
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it is good for spain, since well, they recover economically faster, but yeah it isn't better for the colonial population, which has been stated in full.
Neal Caffrey said:
Also while taking into account current events make it so saying that something is highly improbable a lie, the story having a /all_enemies_die feels like a cheap plot device.
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only Bolivar is really killed off though.
 
Prehaps monarchy might come to a end someday though other than perhaps Thailand's the remaining monarchies in Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania seem quite secure and don't seem under any threat of ending anytime soon.
 
DeusExMachina said:
it is good for spain, since well, they recover economically faster, but yeah it isn't better for the colonial population, which has been stated in full.

only Bolivar is really killed off though.
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But so is his army and that's dumb also it could be cool if like they say made Nariño or Santander become the main independence people or maybe make him go amd or something, that whole thing looks flat.

Also I mean it's good for Spain but it also negates the consequences for being dumbasses and being a 1800 hundred feudal society.
 
"It's good for the imperial master" is not a good argument to make.
 
Neal Caffrey said:
But so is his army and that's dumb also it could be cool if like they say made Nariño or Santander become the main independence people or maybe make him go amd or something, that whole thing looks flat.
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I believe Santander is actually in underground working against Spain as an insurgent on republican views.

Neal Caffrey said:
Also I mean it's good for Spain but it also negates the consequences for being dumbasses and being a 1800 hundred feudal society.
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And.....that is cringeworthy how? Being economically sound while being socially and administratively inept has been a codus operandi for many states in the past. Including my own country right now.
 
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Astrid Fornhoff said:
"It's good for the imperial master" is not a good argument to make.
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Spain isn't screwed over. Granada, Peru and Chile are a different story, and atrocities of the Spanish are highlighted in full really.
And anyways, making insinuations over things I never really said is making arguments in bad faith you realize? Spain benefits from the arrangement, and the colonies don't. That's what i said.
 
Alane1 said:
Prehaps monarchy might come to a end someday though other than perhaps Thailand's the remaining monarchies in Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania seem quite secure and don't seem under any threat of ending anytime soon.
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I'd say that's because they're essentially done for already. At this point most monarchies are just rich families with fancy titles and ceremonial duties.
 
Hmm I wonder what would have happened if the Spanish royal family had followed the Portugal's royal family example and fled to their new world colonies like lets say Mexico during the Napoleonic wars, wonder if you'd get something similar with one or more of the royal family staying in the colonies rather than returning to Spain might make for a interesting timeline I suppose.
 
Like, Dinosaurs have done more for the human imagination than monarchs ever have.

Alane1 said:
Prehaps monarchy might come to a end someday though other than perhaps Thailand's the remaining monarchies in Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania seem quite secure and don't seem under any threat of ending anytime soon.
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The Tories are going to need someone to blame to keep their necks when England starts to sink into the seas.

Anyway, since we're in this thread, would Twilight of the Red Tsar fit? I haven't read it, but it basically seems to be have Stalin live longer so he can commit more horrible war crimes so communism can be discredited forever.
 
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BBadolato said:
When was Spain economically sound, weren't they prone to some nasty bankruptcies?
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Habsburg Spain was notoriously economically flip flopping, defaulting 9 times, but also growing the royal coffers by three times.
Bourbon Spain was much more economically stable. They had 1 default in the 18th century and the economy was actually flourishing before the French Revolution decided to say hi.
 
Alane1 said:
Prehaps monarchy might come to a end someday though other than perhaps Thailand's the remaining monarchies in Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania seem quite secure and don't seem under any threat of ending anytime soon.
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places like Nepal and Georgia want to restore their monarchies so yeah. They aren't under threat, besides the Thai monarchy.
 
I don't recall debating with you, much less 'arguing in bad faith'. I've made a few passing comments based on what others who are debating with you have said, thanks.
 
Z-Cosmonaut said:
The Bourbons brought some economic stability, from what I've read.
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When you read that, that's mainly Godoy because he was a very decent statesman but was hindered by the spanish heir (Fernando, I think?)

DeusExMachina said:
I believe Santander is actually in underground working against Spain as an insurgent on republican views.


And.....that is cringeworthy how? Being economically sound while being socially and administratively inept has been a codus operandi for many states in the past. Including my own country right now.
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I mean that makes sense since Santander would be a danger as long as he is alive and basically a lot revolutionaries would keep on fighting.

It is cringeworthy because Spain was not sound in a majority of ways, their most competent aspect was keeping the system not in economics, were they refused to industrialize fast and instead led small steps in the Basque country, and certainly not in an adminitrative way were because of new taxes and protectionism that fucked the colonies over and restricted a thing that to this day is very important to Colombians, Ecuadorians and Venezuelans (moonshine) and led to 8000 thousand (Sorry a bit of a mistake there) 18.000 people almost starting the revolution on the 1780s and was subdued just because a priest fucked them over, and making it so that has few consequences is dumb.
 
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Astrid Fornhoff said:
I don't recall debating with you, much less 'arguing in bad faith'. I've made a few passing comments based on what others who are debating with you have said, thanks.
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ah i apologize then. Sorry.
Neal Caffrey said:
It is cringeworthy because Spain was not sound in a majority of ways, their most competent aspect was keeping the system not in economics, were they refused to industrialize fast and instead led small steps in the Basque country, and certainly not in an adminitrative way were because of new taxes and protectionism that fucked the colonies over and restricted a thing that to this day is very important to Colombians, Ecuadorians and Venezuelans (moonshine) and led to 8000 thousand (Sorry a bit of a mistake there) 18.000 people almost starting the revolution on the 1780s and was subdued just because a priest fucked them over, and making it so that has few consequences is dumb.
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True enough. Just to nitpick, though Spain did try to industrialize. Antonio De Saavedra, Ca Bermudez, and Heredia did try to industrialize Spain and aid the country economically, however it was the Carlist Wars that screwed them over.
 
DeusExMachina said:

The Revenge of the Crown : An Alternate 1812 and Beyond.

What if a series of different decisions made on October 13th, 1812 led to Sir Isaac Brock surviving? How would it change history?
www.alternatehistory.com

So I binged this timeline over the weekend, and I found this TL very interesting for a good amount of reasons.

So, what are you guy's thoughts on the tl?
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It's not bad, but not great either. The U.S. seems to balkanize to easily as is common in this sort of fic, with New Orleans and St. Louis breaking away being especially difficult to accept. And while I can certainly believe President Calhoun becoming a dictator I have a harder time seeing V.P. Andrew Jackson letting him...or becoming Calhoun's V.P. in the first place. :rolleyes:
 
Ah... What?

WI: The Catholic Church Acquires Microsoft?

I've been looking into hoaxes, pseudohistory and conspiracy theories lately for a timeline idea I'm mulling over. One of the fun things I came across was that one of the first internet memes/hoaxes to gain a mass audience was the claim that Microsoft had acquired the Catholic Church in 1994. It...
www.alternatehistory.com
 
King Washington said:
Ah... What?

WI: The Catholic Church Acquires Microsoft?

I've been looking into hoaxes, pseudohistory and conspiracy theories lately for a timeline idea I'm mulling over. One of the fun things I came across was that one of the first internet memes/hoaxes to gain a mass audience was the claim that Microsoft had acquired the Catholic Church in 1994. It...
www.alternatehistory.com
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I don't think it really belongs here. the people know that this is frankly absurd notion, they're just entertaining it
 
Astrid Fornhoff said:
Oh there's still a few vestigial ones but give it enough time and monarchy will be in its proper place. A museum. Next to the dinosaurs. Interesting things, but extinct.
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It has been argued that if the choice is between loyalty to a royal house and basing a state off of exclusivist ethnic/confessional nationalism the former is the less damaging option.

There is a stronger argument that a lot of local elites jump on the 'Republican' and/or 'Limited Government' bandwagons to secure the ability to run roughshod over their supposed lessers with no restraint (Brazil was a rather clear-cut example).
 
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