What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

[Norseman]

I have a question relating as to what people think in regards to SIs and when the child genius thing is annoying or not.

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SIs can be well done if they "just" have a ton of hindsight and are reasonably intelligent. The problem is that a lot of them turn out to be a mixture of Machiavelli and Thomas Edison.

I mean... dump me into Louis XVIs body at an early enough stage, give me his memories and mannerisms, and I'd probably be able to prevent the Revolution. I might be able to pass some reforms and get France rapidly invested into steam-engines and railways, as well as electrical telegraphs. But beyond that? Uh, not much, and I'd certainly be outmaneouvered by the likes of Talleyrand (who I would still definately have as my foreign minister).

And this is with me being very interested in both history AND being an educated engineer (and having further education in administration and economics).

 

[Neal Caffrey]

I mean I am mainly asking as I am writing a SI and I don't want to suffer from weird stuff but I have found that for the plan that I have I kinda need to start doing stuff from a young age but I don't want the story to be some weird cringy stuff with a young genius who solves everything.

 

[always_confused]

I mean I am mainly asking as I am writing a SI and I don't want to suffer from weird stuff but I have found that for the plan that I have I kinda need to start doing stuff from a young age but I don't want the story to be some weird cringy stuff with a young genius who solves everything.

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Imo, the bar is set so low in regards to SI and fanfics in general that as long as you avoid that last bit and don't end up with the most attractive individual, be they man, woman or non-binary, I think quite a bit would be willing to give you a pass on writing an SI.

😅

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm, on the other hand, a lot of those started for trade purposes historically, because merchants wouldn't feel safe otherwise and California has a lot to trade.

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Oh, absolutely!

But it still colored the long term relationship between the (mostly Asian) countries where those concessions were granted, and the (mostly European) countries they were granted to, wouldn't you say?

 

[Nyvis]

Oh, absolutely!

But it still colored the long term relationship between the (mostly Asian) countries where those concessions were granted, and the (mostly European) countries they were granted to, wouldn't you say?

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It did, but mostly because the Europeans used them as bases to do worse, either large scale colonization (India, South East Asia) or threaten the country into economic submission (China) or slavery (Africa).

 

[Terra Allias]

What is the do's and don't for an ASB supernatural TL? Because I had the idea for one set in a merger of WW1 and 2

 

[ExNihilo]

What is the do's and don't for an ASB supernatural TL? Because I had the idea for one set in a merger of WW1 and 2

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And one that's not just Youjo Senki?

In any case, I think the most important thing is not lionizing people you're not intending to. Like, don't accidentally imply the Hohenzollerin Reich was good because they weren't as evil as the Nazis, that sort of thing.

 

[ToothMaker]

What is the do's and don't for an ASB supernatural TL? Because I had the idea for one set in a merger of WW1 and 2

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[shrugs] Don't write a bad story? Maybe check with Wikipedia before claiming the Heinkel He 177 can reach New York? If you're bringing ASB into things historical plausibility is less of an issue already, but that's no reason no to do a bit of basic research.

 

[Terra Allias]

In any case, I think the most important thing is not lionizing people you're not intending to. Like, don't accidentally imply the Hohenzollerin Reich was good because they weren't as evil as the Nazis, that sort of thing.

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Well the normal conflict would still be fairly black and white since the war would be fought between Democracies and Autocracies. But I guess it might come off that way since the Imperial Germany expy is taken over by some esoteric pagan movement that's empowered by magic existing. Would help if I said that after a coup the country decides to unconditionally surrender to the Allies because it's the only way there would still be a Germany expy?

 

[Erandil]

I mean I am mainly asking as I am writing a SI and I don't want to suffer from weird stuff but I have found that for the plan that I have I kinda need to start doing stuff from a young age but I don't want the story to be some weird cringy stuff with a young genius who solves everything.

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I think you have to be a very good writer or have a very forgiving audience to make that combination work (hell I would argue each on their own is beyond most non-professional authors) and in all honesty I have yet to come across a case where it wouldn't have been smarter to simply gloss over childhood and start at the mid to late teens at the earliest, especially if you plan to have your character interact with adults to any meaningful degree. Sure there are some who like the "fix-it" idea but to me both of those ideas their own cause serious issues with believability and combined that just spells doom for that. Also you can easily get into some very challenging terrain in for example regards to sexual stuff if you go that route and even if you personally manage to stay away from it, almost certainly some of your readers going to go there which isn't as big as an issue if you write a book/novel but can be in an environment like SV where you have closer contact with your readers.

 

[Rhel]

I have a question relating as to what people think in regards to SIs and when the child genius thing is annoying or not.

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Honestly... I wouldn't obsess too much about that. Having a young and hypercompetent main character is by no means bad writing. Yes it'll get on some people's nerve but that's true for every concept, trope, character or plot. Good writing, in my opinion, has a lot more to do with execution, how you package the plot, how you introduce the character(s) and, often underestimated in fanfiction and alt-history circles, prose and grammar. Almost every "bad" character, plot (including supposed plotholes) or concept can be executed just fine. So, since you're looking at writing for fun anyway, literally just write what you like. People, especially in somewhat nerdy internet circles, tend to obsess about specific concepts they like or dislike and then take that as the benchmark for good or bad writing. You're probably better off not giving too much attention to that.

Though with that said, be prepared for most of it to be crap initially. Not because you're particularly bad or anything like that. But simply because that's how it works for everyone. I guarantee even the greatest authors in the world produced some duds early on. And even as established authors, I'm sure most of them would go to great lengths to prevent the first draft from being published.

 

[samdamandias]

I mean I am mainly asking as I am writing a SI and I don't want to suffer from weird stuff but I have found that for the plan that I have I kinda need to start doing stuff from a young age but I don't want the story to be some weird cringy stuff with a young genius who solves everything.

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Also don't forget that the downtimers aren't stupid, and have their own motivations.

In the Ring of Fire universe, the franklin stove gets copied and passed around a lot. There's an entire travelling road crew with powered road scrapers built using entirely downtime tech.

Or in Greyjoy alla Breve, where yes the SI introduces guns, but other people taking the design and refining it and houses even specializing in what they make. (The Boltons did machineguns, the Umbers did man-portable artillery, and there was another house the focused on pistols)

It's entirely plausible that someone will come up with a better design based on what the SI does, or just do something to make it popular and so get the credit.

 

[ToothMaker]

Also don't forget that the downtimers aren't stupid, and have their own motivations.

In the Ring of Fire universe, the franklin stove gets copied and passed around a lot. There's an entire travelling road crew with powered road scrapers built using entirely downtime tech.

Or in Greyjoy alla Breve, where yes the SI introduces guns, but other people taking the design and refining it and houses even specializing in what they make. (The Boltons did machineguns, the Umbers did man-portable artillery, and there was another house the focused on pistols)

It's entirely plausible that someone will come up with a better design based on what the SI does, or just do something to make it popular and so get the credit.

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Frankly, that sort of thing doesn't happen often enough in ISoTs.

 

[Sarthaka]

The Revenge of the Crown : An Alternate 1812 and Beyond.

What if a series of different decisions made on October 13th, 1812 led to Sir Isaac Brock surviving? How would it change history?

www.alternatehistory.com

So I binged this timeline over the weekend, and I found this TL very interesting for a good amount of reasons.

1. Tecumseh's confederacy survives, and has its own distinct future.
2. This is not a ameriwank, i repeat it is not a ameriwank. However the author has stated that whilst America will be beaten down, trodden over, socially and economically the America that is in this atl 2020 is much better, having learned its mistakes, even if it devolves into a dictatorship for a few decades in the 1800s.
3. A successful Mexican Empire (though it is still beset with rebellions now and then)
4. An independent Louisiana under the House of Orleans
5. a carlist argentina
6. a timeline in which spain is not screwed over in the 19th century completely.
7. Portugal does better and holds onto the amazonian parts of brazil.
8. The House of Holstein-Gottorp of Sweden deposed in 1809, taking power in Uruguay!
9. Did i mention the emperor of mexico is joseph bonaparte?
10. the papal states actually does something interesting in this 19th century tl.
11. the Bourbon restoration in France survives.
12. Mahmud II of the OE is successful with his reforms unlike otl.
13. Prince Felix of Schwarzenburg who died before getting the limelight otl, gets it ittl!
14. Britain going towards Liberalism 20 years earlier than otl.
15. Lafayette as French PM!
16. Ryuku kingdom pulls a 'meiji' of its own.
17. The Tokugawa Shogunate survives in some form.
18. a flipped canadian rebellion where the clinton clique and family compact rebel against britain.
19. a partition of belgium along Talleyrand's otl plan.
20. Post Congress of Vienna order being broken way earlier.
21. Greece getting independence as a OE protectorate like Wallachia and Moldavia called the Duchy of Attica.
22. Canuck Lincoln!


it is pretty interesting and takes an independent route for many places, avoiding a lot of ah cliches.

So, what are you guy's thoughts on the tl?

 

[Geedubs]

So... a monarchy-wank sparked by the US getting its ass kicked in the War of 1812. Why are you bringing it up in this thread - about cringeworthy AH - when you seem so positive about it?

 

[Sarthaka]

So... a monarchy-wank sparked by the US getting its ass kicked in the War of 1812. Why are you bringing it up in this thread - about cringeworthy AH - when you seem so positive about it?

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i am largely interesting in other people's opinion regarding the Tl. Also, to see if anyone can find anything cringeworthy regarding it. It isn't necessarily, a monarchy wank either, with New England, Paraguay, and Charcas (Boliver is unfortunately offed early on so the region remains named Charcas) do pretty well for themselves as republics as well.
I do have my fair bit of issues with the TL, like some inconsistencies and such, however I am quite intrigued by the independent route it takes on many issues.

 

[Silent Runner]

-snip-

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It's a good thing TFSmith121 is no longer on AH.com, because he would have an apoplexy from sheer rage if he read it.

 

[SBP]

It's a good thing TFSmith121 is no longer on AH.com, because he would have an apoplexy from sheer rage if he read it.

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As much as the guy was pretty knowledgeable the guy took American exceptionalism and the belief that America could do no wrong to extreme levels. Even when facts and historical analyses were thrown to his face. Like English Canuck's Trent War tl. All the economic, diplomatic and military info and facts thrown to his face could not make him acknowledge that a Trent war would be won by Britain 9.5/10 times.

 

[Guaire]

5. a carlist argentina

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what?

6. a timeline in which spain is not screwed over in the 19th century completely.

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You had my curiosity, now you have my attention

 

[Neal Caffrey]

what?

You had my curiosity, now you have my attention

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A carlist Argentina is kinda dumb and a few of this things look like they are made by someone who takes that weird claim that "the people wanted Spain to continue ruling but those dirty elites just were greedy and separated" while yes the independence movement in some places was of special interest to some wealthy groups that forgets that the people themselves didn't like the Spanish and the costs of keeping the spanish empire together were just far greater than the benefits.

 

[Admiral Halsey]

You know something I'd like to see is an Alt 1812 where the US basically has the opposite luck of OTL. So a complete victory in Canada and no burning of the White House but the rest of the war goes bad.

 

[SBP]

A carlist Argentina is kinda dumb and a few of this things look like they are made by someone who takes that weird claim that "the people wanted Spain to continue ruling but those dirty elites just were greedy and separated" while yes the independence movement in some places was of special interest to some wealthy groups that forgets that the people themselves didn't like the Spanish and the costs of keeping the spanish empire together were just far greater than the benefits.

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It really isn't really that dumb. Otl an offer was made by the Argentines to Infante Carlos. O am guessing in that to Carlos agreed to it.

 

[ToothMaker]

You know something I'd like to see is an Alt 1812 where the US basically has the opposite luck of OTL. So a complete victory in Canada and no burning of the White House but the rest of the war goes bad.

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Just off the top of my head that would require the Napoleonic Wars to go very differently so Spain and France could pay more attention to the American continent.

 

[Neal Caffrey]

It really isn't really that dumb. Otl an offer was made by the Argentines to Infante Carlos. O am guessing in that to Carlos agreed to it.

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Yeah because that would lead to a very stable country that would not at all have a civil war and ultimately have that monarchy overthrown.

Also it's argentinians not argentines.

 

[Sarthaka]

what?

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Infante Carlos was offered the Argentine Throne otl.Since he was heir to Fernando VII before Isabelle he didn't take the offer otl, however with Fernando VII having twins ittl with an alternate Alfonso XII he takes the offer and becomes King of Argentina.

have

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Ah you see, in that timeline Bolivar and his army of the andes are crushed by an avalanche and its remaining survivors killed in battle, the Spanish find it easy to link up with the Peruvians, and from there they (re)conquer Chile as well. Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico still got independence, but however retaining the majority of their SA colonies changes the political spectrum in Spain, with Fernando VII and the Spanish Cortes coming to a tacit deal with one another, so the Constitution of 1812 is not repealed and the 1823 invasion does not happen. Basically with this and sometimes puppet PMs of Fernando VII Spain manages to properly recover its economy and from the Peninsular War (by also exploiting their colonial mines in Peru and such) and in the late 1830s, they get involved in a massive war in Italy, with Tomas Zumalacarregui restoring Spanish influence in southern italy.

Yeah because that would lead to a very stable country that would not at all have a civil war and ultimately have that monarchy overthrown.

Also it's argentinians not argentines.

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It has already had two civil wars. It most definitely not a stable country. And has a republican insurrection controlling the countryside. It is most certainly not a stable country.