What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

It quite possibly wouldn't be a short time. Without the easy early conquests due to the Native Americans suffering apocalyptic plagues, the entire process is likely to take much longer if it happens at all. Both because the locals would be much harder targets, and the fact that without those early conquests the European powers will have a lot less incentive and resources to run a campaign of conquest in the first place. Both because it'll be harder and less rewarding, and because they won't get into such an extremely expansionist mindset to begin with without those early successes planting the idea that it was practical.

And the less incentive there is for outright conquest the more trade there will be instead, which means more opportunity for the Native Americans to buy or copy European technology and tactics further slowing any impetus towards conquest. In such a timeline instead of OTL empires built by genocidal conquest, the result would be more mercantile ones; like what happened to Asia. Not nice, but better than OTL.

Also, remember how much of OTL settlement was basically built on top of either graveyards or the aftermath of plagues. English settlements in North America? Benefitted enormously from moving into a former agricultural region where the previous owners had just died, leaving behind managed lands. Spanish conquests in America? Other than Mexico they also benefitted from things like the Incan civil war caused by plague.

Then we have the Mississippi and Amazon civilizations which were wiped out by plague. If they are still around then, well, that's going to have some kind of impact that's for sure. Especially the Amazon civilization, since that area was going to be hard for Europeans to settle no matter what.
 
One thing that doesn't seem to be getting mentioned in all this talk of the rest of the world trying to catch up to Cali is new innovation. Yes, the U.S. and rest of the world face an uphill climb in matching Cali's industry and tech, but they will also be turning their own scientists loose on the problem. Scientists who are no less intelligent and creative than those of today, just with fewer references - references they now have access to. This is by no means a magic wand that will allow them to jump their nations forward, but that just means they will look for new ways to work around the problems - which will lead to new innovations.

On the Cali side the focus will be on trying to work around the lack of critical resources - rare metals - that aren't readily available. This will lead to it's own spate of innovations.
 
One thing that doesn't seem to be getting mentioned in all this talk of the rest of the world trying to catch up to Cali is new innovation. Yes, the U.S. and rest of the world face an uphill climb in matching Cali's industry and tech, but they will also be turning their own scientists loose on the problem. Scientists who are no less intelligent and creative than those of today, just with fewer references - references they now have access to. This is by no means a magic wand that will allow them to jump their nations forward, but that just means they will look for new ways to work around the problems - which will lead to new innovations.

On the Cali side the focus will be on trying to work around the lack of critical resources - rare metals - that aren't readily available. This will lead to it's own spate of innovations.
That's certainly true. In one story post, a British gentleman manages to work out how the USS Theodore Roosevelt works; it's basically a steam ship that uses a strange engine (uranium rather than coal) and even points out the various parts roughly corresponding to a 19th century steamship. The locals may be running on a lot of false assumptions and lack of scientific progress (particularly when it comes to things like diseases), but if they see something work, they can make rough guesses and learn from their mistakes. They're not stupid.
 
In recent events, everything I hate about DBWIs is encapsulated in this one prompt
Remember the time wakanda tried to take over the world? Once they conquered all of africa and northern europe, only then did the us try to step in. Battle of london was so pivotal imo.
Nobody asks questions about historical events like this. Nobody aside from the most socially inept goes "remember when America fought in Vietnam?" This isn't a family guy cutaway. Maybe if one went "so how's every one doing from the wakanda war? [Insert vague details here]". Now I'm gonna do something hypocritical and make one cause I'm a spiteful shit

Edit: nvm on that last part because idea I had in mind would be locked because I'm 90% sure [aoob] is a shit
 
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In recent events, everything I hate about DBWIs is encapsulated in this one prompt

Nobody asks questions about historical events like this. Nobody aside from the most socially inept goes "remember when America fought in Vietnam?" This isn't a family guy cutaway. Maybe if one went "so how's every one doing from the wakanda war? [Insert vague details here]"

Now I'm gonna do something hypocritical and make one cause I'm a spiteful shit

My pet peeve? Meetings and negotiations! Whenever they try to show, in writing, instead of paraphrasing, meetings and negotiations. No one talks like people do in those meetings, and a decision to invade Russia is made faster than normal people would agree on what pizza toppings to get.
 
My pet peeve? Meetings and negotiations! Whenever they try to show, in writing, instead of paraphrasing, meetings and negotiations. No one talks like people do in those meetings, and a decision to invade Russia is made faster than normal people would agree on what pizza toppings to get.
I don't climb down off the "We should get ham and pineapple" hill until I've alienated at least half the people in the room.
 
One thing that doesn't seem to be getting mentioned in all this talk of the rest of the world trying to catch up to Cali is new innovation. Yes, the U.S. and rest of the world face an uphill climb in matching Cali's industry and tech, but they will also be turning their own scientists loose on the problem. Scientists who are no less intelligent and creative than those of today, just with fewer references - references they now have access to. This is by no means a magic wand that will allow them to jump their nations forward, but that just means they will look for new ways to work around the problems - which will lead to new innovations.

On the Cali side the focus will be on trying to work around the lack of critical resources - rare metals - that aren't readily available. This will lead to it's own spate of innovations.

One of the big boons is that even without technical manuals, they will know what is likely to be possible and what isn't.

One big issue is that they will probably try to build the pieces to get there in the wrong order.
 
EDIT: Though I took the liberty of bolding a very relevant section. It is the sort of complaints that could be ignored for decades, then as downtimers catch up California can be baffled as to why everyone seems to hate democracy and "common human decency."
Yeah, this...

You are deliberately misconstruing my words for no reason. I did not say they did not industralize. I said they did not finish industralization. There was still excess capacity. And yes, the Germans doing things like relying on horses on the eastern front does represent the logistical difficulties related to that. They could not crank out cars like the Americans could. Wages of Destruction speaks to this and other major issues the German economy faced. These were also issues faced by the Soviet Union and France, which remained heavily agrarian into the 20th century. Britain fell behind and had to rely on India to retain a trade surplus.
On the other hand, at some point we're creating a definition of "fully industrialized by 1940 standards" that applies only to the United States, the nation that just happened to combine an early start to the spread of industry with suffering effectively no damage from World War One, then trying to draw inferences from it.

It's safe to do so as long as those inferences are of the form "the US had a lot more firepower or potential firepower in the 1940s, compared to other nations." The US outgunned both Nazi Germany and the USSR, for instance.

Not so safe to do so if the argument is something like "no other technological power could meaningfully vie with the United States for global power in the 1940s." Since Nazi Germany and arguably Japan did exactly that for at least a few years despite having a lot of resources committed elsewhere. And the USSR then did exactly that for the late '40s and the following forty years.

I don't actually think the United States in the 1850s, a country whose social and economic institutions were literally about to break down over internal contradictions, can neatly transition to a modern economy over fifty years.
Historically, in roughly that timeframe the US did transition to an industrial economy, though obviously not a post-industrial economy insofar as that represents a linear evolution 'beyond' industrialization.

I think that if we're tracking the question of "so, would anyone be caught up with California in this timeline after fifty years," a lot is going to hinge on what we mean by "caught up."

They're not going to be running their economies on a post-industrial information technology consumer basis, as distinct from a mass-production industrial basis.

They're not going to be pushing out to the bleeding edge of advanced technology.

But there's going to be a pretty significant change in the relationship, because in those fifty years you will see the seeds planted elsewhere in the world (not just the US) of an industrial infrastructure that operates on, and is capable of manufacturing, something much, much closer to modern technology. Too many exciting possibilities associated with all that technology. Too many governments interested in recreating it, too many private individuals interested, in too many places. And as they start getting it from California they will also be trying to get it from each other, in parallel, to avoid being outcompeted locally.

That's pretty much inevitable, and if fifty years is an underestimate, so what? There will still come a point where a lot of the casual flexing on everyone else that California in this timeline (which I am not the most familiar with admittedly) seems to engage in becomes both less tenable and more likely to have adverse consequences. In that sure, maybe they're still pulling it off in fifty years. Sixty? Seventy? Sooner or later, someone is going to be the China to their United States, the ones who "made it" off a combination of catching up to a 'more or less good enough' standard of industrialization, plus greater raw size and growth potential.

By fifty years? Maybe no one's "caught up" in the sense of "a cross-section of their economy is an exact clone of a cross-section of California's." But they're going to be a hell of a lot closer, and probably to the point where they can't just be casually ignored without consequence as "buncha primitives."
 
There's an ongoing timeline on AH.com called "The Revenge of the Crown", I haven't had time to properly assess its quality but it might be what you're looking for. The overall premise seems to be that Britain does MUCH better in the war of 1812, and part of that manifests as Tecumseh's state surviving.
really? Is the timeline good? Does Tecumseh still die in that tl?
If I am not being inconvenient, could you please link the TL?
 
And the less incentive there is for outright conquest the more trade there will be instead, which means more opportunity for the Native Americans to buy or copy European technology and tactics further slowing any impetus towards conquest. In such a timeline instead of OTL empires built by genocidal conquest, the result would be more mercantile ones; like what happened to Asia. Not nice, but better than OTL.
In this case, there is a possibility that a strongly insolent state of some Amerinids may begin to oppress its neighbors - up to the cleansing of the "extra" population.
 
In this case, there is a possibility that a strongly insolent state of some Amerinids may begin to oppress its neighbors - up to the cleansing of the "extra" population.
...'Insolent' may be a translation error. In English it means something like 'disrespectful to one's superiors.' Like a child who insults adults.

But uh, maybe? That would be essentially the normal condition of global politics- states with lots of agriculture and technology sometimes fighting, and sometimes killing or (far more often) conquering local populations.
 
Adoption was more common among Native Americans than good old fashioned kill them all (yes, they did that too).
 
I am not a professional academic, nor do I make claims toward being one. I apologize that I can't remember the titles of books that I read years ago to placate you. Take it as an opinion if you so desire.
 
I try very hard not to say stupid things. I often fail.
 
You know what, I will concede to this. As much as I dislike admitting I was wrong I will do so when presented with proof and good arguments. Which so far you're the only person to do.

EDIT: Though I took the liberty of bolding a very relevant section. It is the sort of complaints that could be ignored for decades, then as downtimers catch up California can be baffled as to why everyone seems to hate democracy and "common human decency."
The rest of the world will have done much worse by that point, and as others have pointed out it's not necessarily a given that the frontier dynamic of the Great Plains would persist forever. Both sides will probably have settled down by the time the rest of the world has roughly caught up.
 
Adoption was more common among Native Americans than good old fashioned kill them all (yes, they did that too).
That seems like an opinion that needs a source.
I will note that, uh. Native American tribes probably did the whole "adopt captured members of enemy tribes" things for reasons that made sense within their own physical context.

From Dr. Bret Devereaux's acoup.blog, recently discussing nomadic societies of the Eurasian steppes and the North American Great Plains in the context of pointing out how stupid and shitty the Dothraki are presented as...

(some ellipsis added for brevity)

But what are the things here that they are aiming to get? It depends on the targets; nomadic raids into the settled zone generally aim to capture the goods that agrarian societies produce which nomadic societies do not: stocks of cereal crops, metal goods and luxury goods. But most nomadic raiding was directed against other nomads, seeking to acquire either people or animals.

On the Great Plains, the animals in question were invariably horses... The Mongols also engaged in quite a lot of raiding for horses, but also – in a pastoral subsistence system – a lot of simple cattle rustling as well (e.g. Ratchnevsky, op. cit., 28-31).

Raiding for people is more complex, but undeniably part of this system of warfare. But crucially this raiding was generally not for slave-trading (though there are exceptions which I discussed last time), but instead incorporative raiding. What I mean by that is that the intent in gaining captives in the raid was to incorporate those captives, either as full or subordinate members, into the nomadic community doing the raiding. Remember: the big tribe is the safe tribe, so incorporating new members is a good way to improve security in the long run.

On the Eurasian Steppe, incorporated captives became the ötögus bo'ol 'bonded serfs' that we mentioned previously (Ratchnevsky, op. cit., 12-4). Unlike warfare on the Great Plains, it seems possible for the bo'ol to include adult men, either captured or sold (by destitute parents) as children or else taken as prisoners when their tribe or clan was essentially dissolved by being conquered in war. Indeed, in his own conquests, Chinggis only decreed the annihilation of one tribe, the Mongol's traditional enemies, the Tatars – there he ordered the death of any Tatar male taller than the linchpin of an oxcart (May, Mongols, 12). In other cases, it is clear that the incorporation of defeated nomad warriors into the successful tribe was fairly normal, though raids to capture women and children (also for incorporation) were just as common. Bride abduction in particular was very common on the Steppe, as Ratchnevsky notes (op. cit., 34-5).

The incorporation of males was far less common in Great Plains Native American warfare, but the capture of women and children to enhance tribal strength in the long term was a core objective in raiding. McGinnis (op. cit., 42-3) notes how the Crow, after suffering a massive defeat in the early 1820s which resulted in the deaths of many warriors and the capture of perhaps several hundred women and children, steadily built their tribe back up over the following decades with an intentional strategy of capturing women and children from their enemies. As McGinnis (op. cit., 24) notes, women captured in this way might be married into the capturing tribe, adopted into it, or sometimes kept as an enslaved laborer (under quite bad conditions). Adult males, by contrast, were almost always killed; unlike on the Steppe, the incorporation of formerly hostile warriors doesn't seem to have been considered possible (though one wonders if this would have become cultural practice given enough time; both McGinnis and Secoy note how the increasing lethality of warfare post-gun/horse led to slow population decline overall, which may, had the system run without outside interference long enough, led to the emergence of norms more closely resembling the Eurasian Steppe. We should keep in mind that the Eurasian horse-system had many centuries to sort itself out, whereas the North American horse-system was essentially strangled in its crib).
So that's a starting point.

Basically, that's in the context of nomadic societies where manpower is actually a major problem for safety, because subsistence is hard. Increasing the size of your own tribe's society by kidnapping outsiders and gradually integrating them is, or can be, an important strategy for success. We further see that this is not uniquely a Native American thing; indeed the Mongols took it even farther than the Plains Indians.

...

Now, I don't have immediately available sources for the same dynamic elsewhere in North America, but it would be unsurprising to see it in other tribal non-state societies where agriculture was not yet fully dominant as the means of subsistence. In places where agriculturally settled peoples had effectively tiled the arable land with farms (e.g. Mesoamerica), there's not much incentive to kidnap members of an enemy population because there's no extra land to settle them on. But in places that are less densely populated and societies are less organized, kidnapping and assimilation may be attractive for the same reasons as on the Great Plains and the steppes, or for related reasons.

However, I'd expect that customary pattern to fade as agriculture takes deeper hold, technology develops, and towns evolve into cities- much as it did elsewhere in the world.

The thing is, what replaces the 'kidnap for manpower' pattern isn't extermination, usually. It's conquest. Societies like this don't kill the other society's villagers and fill their land with their own relatives, for a wide variety of very good reasons. They just move in, displace the local ruling elite with their own more ambitious and warlike members, and maaaybe kidnap the local urban populations into slavery which then wraps right back to "take them back to your own territory and incorporate them into your population," since that isn't exactly dead and gone after all.

...

Anyway, I don't expect that Native American practices specifically regarding "which people do our societies kidnap versus kill during wartime" to remain unchanged over centuries of time in which the economic underpinnings and organization of their societies do change, is all.
 
By fifty years? Maybe no one's "caught up" in the sense of "a cross-section of their economy is an exact clone of a cross-section of California's." But they're going to be a hell of a lot closer, and probably to the point where they can't just be casually ignored without consequence as "buncha primitives."

And here I'd like to point out that in 1965 the USSR didn't make toilet paper. The country was quite backwards in many ways and in many places. Yet they had tanks, airplanes, missiles, and so on, that were every bit as good as those made by the USA at the same time.

In a discussion about military matters, especially in regards to the USSRs ability to oppose the west, the USSR had most assuredly caught up.
 
On the other hand, at some point we're creating a definition of "fully industrialized by 1940 standards" that applies only to the United States, the nation that just happened to combine an early start to the spread of industry with suffering effectively no damage from World War One, then trying to draw inferences from it.

It's safe to do so as long as those inferences are of the form "the US had a lot more firepower or potential firepower in the 1940s, compared to other nations." The US outgunned both Nazi Germany and the USSR, for instance.

Not so safe to do so if the argument is something like "no other technological power could meaningfully vie with the United States for global power in the 1940s." Since Nazi Germany and arguably Japan did exactly that for at least a few years despite having a lot of resources committed elsewhere. And the USSR then did exactly that for the late '40s and the following forty years.

Historically, in roughly that timeframe the US did transition to an industrial economy, though obviously not a post-industrial economy insofar as that represents a linear evolution 'beyond' industrialization.

I think that if we're tracking the question of "so, would anyone be caught up with California in this timeline after fifty years," a lot is going to hinge on what we mean by "caught up."

They're not going to be running their economies on a post-industrial information technology consumer basis, as distinct from a mass-production industrial basis.

They're not going to be pushing out to the bleeding edge of advanced technology.

But there's going to be a pretty significant change in the relationship, because in those fifty years you will see the seeds planted elsewhere in the world (not just the US) of an industrial infrastructure that operates on, and is capable of manufacturing, something much, much closer to modern technology. Too many exciting possibilities associated with all that technology. Too many governments interested in recreating it, too many private individuals interested, in too many places. And as they start getting it from California they will also be trying to get it from each other, in parallel, to avoid being outcompeted locally.

That's pretty much inevitable, and if fifty years is an underestimate, so what? There will still come a point where a lot of the casual flexing on everyone else that California in this timeline (which I am not the most familiar with admittedly) seems to engage in becomes both less tenable and more likely to have adverse consequences. In that sure, maybe they're still pulling it off in fifty years. Sixty? Seventy? Sooner or later, someone is going to be the China to their United States, the ones who "made it" off a combination of catching up to a 'more or less good enough' standard of industrialization, plus greater raw size and growth potential.

By fifty years? Maybe no one's "caught up" in the sense of "a cross-section of their economy is an exact clone of a cross-section of California's." But they're going to be a hell of a lot closer, and probably to the point where they can't just be casually ignored without consequence as "buncha primitives."
A large part of the timeline is that the 'effortless dunking' is much less effortless than it actually appears, and some of the problems related to that. The people in charge in California also recognize that their advantage is fleeting(especially since they want to spread their knowledge and expertise, which will ultimately diminish their advantage faster than if they hoarded knowledge). However, because they recognize this they are careful about their actions: they're in conflict with the US because neither side is willing to really back down on a number of issues. They are more willing to work positively with other groups

And I don't think anyone is really arguing that California is going to be effortlessly dunking forever? So I'm not entirely sure why you're dedicating large portions of the post to address that.
 
And here I'd like to point out that in 1965 the USSR didn't make toilet paper. The country was quite backwards in many ways and in many places. Yet they had tanks, airplanes, missiles, and so on, that were every bit as good as those made by the USA at the same time.

In a discussion about military matters, especially in regards to the USSRs ability to oppose the west, the USSR had most assuredly caught up.

They caught up for about 15 years but then rapidly started falling behind because it turns out that computers and such are actually really useful.
 
They caught up for about 15 years but then rapidly started falling behind because it turns out that computers and such are actually really useful.
Yes, though the reasons the Soviets fell behind came from factors not fully replicated here.

For example, the Soviets botched the transition to a computerized technical base pretty badly- they could likely have done better if not for certain conscious decisions made by their command economy to reject benefits of computerization.

And the West was in an excellent position to rapidly research tons of ever-advancing technology, with a total population base of many hundreds of millions to pursue such advancements in the middle of a generally advancing and developing economy.

So... I think the comparison point of "China versus 'The West' from 1940-2020" is more relevant here than "Russia from 1910 to 1990" for purposes of figuring out what the 'catchup' attempt will look like.
 
A large part of the timeline is that the 'effortless dunking' is much less effortless than it actually appears, and some of the problems related to that. The people in charge in California also recognize that their advantage is fleeting(especially since they want to spread their knowledge and expertise, which will ultimately diminish their advantage faster than if they hoarded knowledge). However, because they recognize this they are careful about their actions: they're in conflict with the US because neither side is willing to really back down on a number of issues. They are more willing to work positively with other groups

And I don't think anyone is really arguing that California is going to be effortlessly dunking forever? So I'm not entirely sure why you're dedicating large portions of the post to address that.

People may not have been arguing that they would be effortlessly dunking forever, but in this very thread they have been arguing that the USA will be flying propeller airplanes "at best" by 1898. They have also argued, in this very thread, that even over a 50 year span modernisation will be nigh impossible without Californias good will.

However, no, you're right, that has not been argued in the actual timeline.

My initial arguments however is that although many of Californias decisions are understandable for moral reasons (e.g. independence, protecting native Americans, Mexico, and working against slavery) some of the things they do are by nature provocative. Sometimes insanely provocative. Some of them insanely and needlessly provocative (like maintaining that airport and embassy by force of arms).

However... There are a set of people who believe that if you are morally right then that magically translates into not having to worry about what the other side feels about things. And that it is wrong, in some almost metaphysical sense, for good and decent actions to have bad long term consequences. That even if people are humbled and humiliated, if it was for the Greater Good and for a Moral Cause, then even the people defeated will come to See the Light.

So if you say, "You know that thing you are doing because it is right and true and good? And how the people who oppose you are really bad? Well... you're gonna win this fight, but those people are going to really bitterly resent you, and one day they will be powerful enough that this resentment will hurt you to some degree." If you say that then they might as well quote Milton back at you:

Vertue may be assail'd, but never hurt,
Surpriz'd by unjust force, but not enthrall'd,
...
... ... if this fail,
The pillar'd firmament is rott'nness,
And earths base built on stubble.

So there cannot be bad consequences. The USA cannot catch up soon enough, or they can only do so with Californian aid, or they will see the error of their ways, or... or... or... something!

And by extension it cannot be true that California is being aggressive or behaving in ways that the USA might rationally object to, if what California is trying to do is a good and laudable goal. So if you are launching anti-slavery operations; extending a protectorate over parts of the west; or explicitly entering an alliance with Mexico that includes protection from the USA... Then saying that the USA would rationally object to its national interests being threatened like this is like saying you approve of evil things or weep tears for slavers, or support manifest destiny.
 
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