What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

Also, I think people are getting confused here. The main anti-landlord movement in China occurred long before the Cultural Revolution.

The Cultural Revolution was basically Mao's bitchfit at the just the idea that in that sprawling government bureaucracy of his there were those that thought he had an even slight responsibility for the famine, no matter how polite and sycophantically they phrased it. He determined that there was a massive right wing conspiracy in it, and mobilized the people to find and fight it.

Which in among many others they included those with any "black marks" on their past such as being a former landlord or being related to one. However it often just degenerated into one Red Guard militia of the village killing the other. As the government personnel changed at higher levels, the Red Guard militias who were "correct" flipped and they took their revenge against them.
Lol, no. The cultural revolution was the public part of what was essentially a massive internal party conflict between the Maoist left and Dengist right. It was the death spasm of actual communism in the PRC, a desperate attempt to return to a popularly based party. At the end of the cultural revolution, actual mass democratic institutions (city communes etc) in the PRC would be abolished by the victorious party rightists to solidify the oligarchic party-state. mao himself was barely involved outside a figurehead role, and in point of fact was about to die of old age.

This class struggle between party and people, with some party members siding with the people, also happened in the USSR, though the party had conclusively won pretty early on, and meaningful mass democracy was never seriously implemented.
 
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I'm really not following how mass incarceration is really ethically different here. Especially since, *unlike landlords* drug dealers have never been an empowered elite group in society whose power needs to be checked.
Kulaks and low-level "landlords" in Chinese villages aren't necessarily much more of an empowered elite group in society than street-level drug dealers are. Especially if it stops being legal to, y'know, hire farmhands apparently?

Any broad category of humans that you can be "well, technically" a member of will of necessity include people who have no remarkable empowerment. Humans who assuredly do not deserve to die, and whose families assuredly do not deserve to die, for being well technically a member of that category.

Yes, there are high-flying aristocrats and landlords with vast properties, but while we're at it, there are high-flying drug dealers who make millions off the trade.

...

But sadly, one of the great marring features of 20th century communism in Russia and China is that it struggled very gracelessly with the contradiction between:

1) Being an ideology about the collective triumph of industrial workers over bourgeois capitalists in the context of an industrializing society, but
2) Emerging thanks to the forceful triumph of comparatively educated and elite vanguard parties over quasi-feudal aristocrats and warlords in the context of a mostly pre-industrial society.

Then it turned out that the rural villages whose social dynamics still bore very little resemblance to an industrializing social order like Marx saw around himself in Britain and Germany were vital to the survival of the state. Because they grew all the food the industrial workers and army needed to survive, and contained so much of the population that no revolution could be stable without the peasantry's consent or at least terrified compliance.

At which point the only tools available were the tools of state terror, wielded against the peasantry.

Like, I'd argue being enslaved is worse than being murdered, and thats literally whats going on in the American prison system. But no, we should worry about what happened 50 years ago in China, and not whats happening today in America, cause clearly those crackheads are asking for it, right? Miserable double standard.
I mean.

This conversation very specifically started on the subject of events in China, and the general subject of historical purges perpetrated by governments who have their own death squads.

We can stick to that if you like. But it might lead to the conclusion that purges by government death squads tend to be bad, not good. If that's a problem for you.
 
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The batshit Insanity of The North Star is Red continues.
TastySpam said:
Laventry Beria was keen of often citing Louis XVI's famous quote when discussing the future of a post-Beria Soviet Union - "après moi, le déluge." After his brains were unceremoniously scooped out of his skull by a band of radical students who sought to attach it to a computer, he was very rapidly proven correct. The muted opposition from the Soviet political establishment, fearing that they were next, empowered one man in particular to gamble it all.

Although many Western observers argued that the Moscow Commune was a rebirth of Council Communism, insofar that it believed that the revolution ought to be led and determined by locally selected governments and democratically selected party committees, this was largely a self-interested ploy. In their own writings, the Moscow Commune stated its support for vanguard Communism and democratic centralism - they just argued that the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was no longer functioning to express the democratic will of party cadres, even as they still believed it should still function as a vanguard party.

Snezhnevsky called for Soviet workers and students to march onto the Kremlin and quite simply replace the national Soviet government with a new government entirely, one based on "authentically democratic principles." Andropov, with his close relations with the NKVD, rapidly worked to broker a compromise between the NKVD and the Moscow Commune. Aliyev, who was thrust into the position, took a deal to simply resign and be shuffled to a position managing ethnic affairs (where his power base was stronger). The students demanded that Politburo created a new Standing Committee, which would include all of the additional members, but which would also include "democratically selected" academics. soldiers (mostly NKVD), and union leaders (drawing from Beria's worker self-managed enterprises) selected from across the entire nation. The compromise taken was that all such members had to be Communist Party members, but in the face of what increasingly became known as the Terror Spring, enough Soviet bureaucrats acquiesced. They saw what happened to Beria, and they had no desire to become the next Beria.

This did not work. The new Standing Committee members were known as "elected" and "meritorious" appointments, and each simply delivered their vote to fill the now empty role of General Secretary with Snezhnevsky himself, who in his inaugural speech called for Soviet citizens to "take revolutionary democracy" in their own hands and purge "antidemocratic bureaucratic dogmatism" and all elements of reactionary, "primitive" thought from Soviet society. The post-World War II baby boom had created a huge cluster of children who were around 21 years old with no real memory of "Stalinism" (at least in the much more radical pre-1941 version). Committees of students loyal to Snezhnevsky formed committees to "standardize and progress Soviet culture." For example, the August Days in Moscow saw almost all of the Soviet Union's economic bureaucrats and planners, hundreds, perhaps thousands, were simply dragged out of their homes and publicly lobotomized by radical students, who quickly shoved brains into a giant jar as a monument to Soviet progress (the jar was called the "brain trust" and the concept was eventually ship it to Wall Street in the United States in order to intimidate it into submission). The only ones spared were those who acquiesced to the new concept of the "11-year plan."

Soviet youth, who spent much of their time burning and looting Orthodox churches with more gusto than any of Lenin or Stalin's men, built an alternative cosmology. Prominent Soviet scientist Alexander Chizhevsky, known for being a crucial scientist in studying solar cycles, was once again given academic freedom to study solar cycles and in particular, his belief that solar cycles would influence human behavior and material history due to ionization in the atmosphere impacting the internal magnetism of humans and driving them towards revolutionary action. Unfortunately for the Soviet Union, Chizhevsky also died, so he was unable to tell off students who took his ideas infinitely further than he had intended. Adopting solar cycles into materialistic class struggle, activists demanded that the five-year plans be changed to eleven-year plans in order to conform to the internal magnetism of Soviet citizens and their "revolutionary drive." As a result, surviving bureaucrats would draft "eleven-year solar plans" instead of the traditional five-year plans, with Soviet workers regularly given phony (but harmless) magnetism tests as a common everyday task (this data was stored and then never used again).
 
Laventry Beria was keen of often citing Louis XVI's famous quote when discussing the future of a post-Beria Soviet Union - "après moi, le déluge." After his brains were unceremoniously scooped out of his skull by a band of radical students who sought to attach it to a computer, he was very rapidly proven correct.

So at some point the Avengers will have to fight a Beria MODOK ?
 
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Information: Normally it doesn't work like this
Being a landlord is a choice of occupation, is the thing. Seems disingenuous to compare that to inherent qualities, or semi-inherent qualities like deeply held views. And violence directed against certain occupations is a normative component of modern society. For example, it is considered legitimate (and socially necessary, to many!) to incarcerate drug dealers, meth cooks, prostitutes etc and subject them to slave labor in prison. While I personally don't support this (or for that matter, reprisals against landlords, just expropriate their land so they aren't landlords anymore and arrest or fine them if they still try to charge rent) I strongly suspect that if I *did* support this, and voiced this opinion on the forum, I would not be reprimanded by the modstaff.

In other words, I think, while reasonable on the surface, this ruling is a worrying double standard. State oppression isn't some orientalized other, or the sole domain of those evil commies, and if support for state-driven purges of certain occupations is a moddable offense, please apply it evenly, instead of deciding landlords are a protected class and prostitutes aren't.
normally it doesn't work like this Per Rule 5 of Sufficient Velocity, moderation rulings are generally not to be challenged in the thread because it causes derails and drags the thread away from its purpose, but I have flaunted this rule before for the purpose of information when I was a moderator, and I will do it again as an administrator. My apologies to @100thlurker for undercutting his authority.

Rule 2 of Sufficient Velocity is the one that governs these kinds of posts - what we call "what you say about groups of people - and though it is labeled "don't be hateful", it really covers a broad spectrum of different kinds of collective speech. One of these requirements is the willingness to treat people as people, which does mean that you can't call for or defend the death of landlords as "more democratic" or moral in another way. You might describe how it makes sense in the mindset of the killers, how it was justified at the time and so on so forth, but you can't say that it was good, or call for a repeat.

The intent of the rule is to provide a similar treatment for prostitutes, drug dealers and meth cooks, though in practice this can often be a bit of a tricky line, but the way it will ideally be enforced is this:
  • Calling for the arbitrary mass imprisonment of prostitutes, meth cooks, drug dealers, murderers or whichever other undesirables is always against Rule 2, as is calling for their murder. Sometimes this arbitrariness will be justified with whatever excuses explaining their undesirability or the ultimate moral good of the action, but this not considered particularly important. In this regard, Rule 2's enforcement is very consistent, and also very easy to enforce. Do not call for the mass execution, imprisonment or otherwise collective "punishment" of a group on SV.
  • As an addendum to the above, calling for the creation of say, a law, that doesn't inherently mass imprison such a group, but just so happens by "accident" to reach that conclusion, will also be treated as the above. The problem here, of course, which you can no doubt guess, is that it can't always be entirely clear. When is the implication perfectly clear to read? When is the implication intended or something a moderator read into it. This can not always be clear, but that is why we have the appeals system to ensure that it doesn't end in unfortunate accidents, and so users have a recourse. Generally, however, such statements will be read as a breach of Rule 2.
  • Calling for the criminalization of a specific act, deciding that something should be illegal, is not against Rule 2. For instance, saying that you think it should be illegal to sell sex for money, or to sell drugs or whatever, is within Rule 2, which can somewhat uncomfortably overlap with the previously mentioned. This is the point, I think, where it might be best to make a comparison to war. There is a difference between going to war with a specific goal and acknowledging that people will die in pursuit of that goal, and going to war with the aim of having people die. In the same way, it's possible to set forth policy goals with the acknowledgement that this will probably imprison people, but it is not possible to do so with the aim of simply imprisoning people.
Again, I realize the boundaries here aren't perfectly clear, which is I think a problem for any set of rules seeking to demarcate exact borders of the acceptable and unacceptable. Asking for someone to be submitted to slavery, or to be murdered, for what they do, is generally against the SV rules. This may be in contravention of certain justice systems, but we didn't write those and we don't have to agree with them. Further complaints will have to go into the Ask a Private Question subforum, which serves this exact purpose of clearing up contradictions, odd statements and things you always wondered about the rules.

That also goes to anyone else part of this discussion. This thread has a purpose, and it isn't this.

 
Oh God those US borders aren't following the curvature of the Earth, ew. Why did they make it all squares that ignore preexisting geography and divisions. What is this the Picot Sykes agreement
The Writeup said:
Is this an Utopia ? Close; but very much No Is this better than OTL ? Yes.
The Comments said:
About Antisemitism; this Axis are indeed not into harming all Jewish people; they actually gave them a Homeland/Homecountry at Africa; but they're keeping them under a very close but light surveillance
About Racism; meanwhile they do believe the Germans're the among the best races on Earth; they're kinda become like Librarians; collencting/preserving to a degree that all races've the right to preserve their customs/traditions
I said its not an utopia; they are indeed Homophobes unfortunately; meanwhile they do not Kill/conduct sadistic experiments on the LGBT-identified people; they do believe that its a some type of hormonal anomaly/something that needed to be ''cured''; ıf a person openly admits and/or caught attention of being a LGBT they've been send to rehabilitation and re-education facilities; that the Nazi's developed some type of Serum that is capable of re-constrcut a person's sexual identification. As I said its not an utopia but its not the classical utter dystopia.
Then why the fuck is it better than OTL
 
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Oh God those US borders aren't following the curvature of the Earth, ew. Why did they make it all squares that ignore preexisting geography and divisions. What is this the Picot Sykes agreement


Then why the fuck is it better than OTL
"This is not an utterly anti-semitic, racist and homophobe world, but this is actually an utterly anti-semitic, racist and homophobe world".
Seriously, I didn't even bother to look past the title "Benevolent Axis" to know that it would be garbage.
 
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Why are all the Cs Ks, even in random words?
? Why the fuck is Japan called Amaterasu? Why is Japanese PSA called Atlanta, when it neither contains the city named Atlanta nor bordering the Atlantic Ocean? Celtic State containing 26 Ireland, with 6 Ireland in Kalmar? Gran Venezlombia sounds like the name an EU4 Lombardy player gives to their Northern South American Colonial Nation as a joke! That is a unique spelling of Aksum, with two "x"s.
 
Why are all the Cs Ks, even in random words?
? Why the fuck is Japan called Amaterasu? Why is Japanese PSA called Atlanta, when it neither contains the city named Atlanta nor bordering the Atlantic Ocean? Celtic State containing 26 Ireland, with 6 Ireland in Kalmar? Gran Venezlombia sounds like the name an EU4 Lombardy player gives to their Northern South American Colonial Nation as a joke! That is a unique spelling of Aksum, with two "x"s.

Why do all V's look like U's, on top of it? Like, what's worse the map or the writing?
 
Isn't it nice when the Nazis and Imperial Japanese are so anti-racist that they name half their American provinces after Native American tribes.

Really. Even if the actual Cheyenne, Sioux, Navajos, etc. are being oppressed, at least these Nazis and Japanese are giving them a figleaf, which's still ahead of being blatantly and obviously racist like they were in actual history.

Also, "Vegas" doesn't contain Las Vegas, "Philadelphia" doesn't contain Philadelphia, "Vermontia" contains maybe half of Vermont, and "Newfoundedland" and "Labrador" are reversed. That doesn't give me much confidence these provinces are governed in a way attentive to local conditions.
 
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Isn't it nice when the Nazis and Imperial Japanese are so anti-racist that they name half their American provinces after Native American tribes.
I hate to say it, but it kind of makes sense in the case of Nazi Germany because Westerns were extremely popular in said country. Like, Karl May was an extremely popular author in Germany who is best known for his Westerns. Apparently Hitler himself was a massive fan of the guy as was most of the higher ups in the Nazi Party. He also sparked a fascination among Germans for Native Americans. So it kind of makes a bit of sense, though not that much... but about as much as anything the Nazis actually did.
 
Also, "Vegas" doesn't contain Las Vegas, "Philadelphia" doesn't contain Philadelphia, "Vermontia" contains maybe half of Vermont, and "Newfoundedland" and "Labrador" are reversed. That doesn't give me much confidence these provinces are governed in a way attentive to local conditions.

Oh god, I didn't even notice that.

Likewise, Miami is not fully in "Miami", the historical Seminole retreat in Florida is not in "Seminole", the "Cree Lands" is absolutely not where the Cree live (Trail of Tears, anyone?), the actual people living there, the Dene, now live in Inuit territory, and the remaining Inuit territory is split into three states that have maybe five people and three ice bears each. Quebecois is an adjective not a noun and is not spelt with a second q, and what is that guy's obsession with the word "Reich"? "Reichanada"? Really? "Nova Reich"? He does know that it basically just means "realm", right? Right?

And then in South America, the state of "Brasil de Sul" in... Northeast Brazil. And an Argentinian state of Ruguay (???) nowhere near the Uruguay river. And of course, in Africa "Berberia" contains basically no Berbers, and in Europe "Cossackia" is nowhere near the traditional Cossack ranges. And about 1m Naga in "Nagaland" next to 100m Bengalis.

...and holy hell why and how did the Fijian and New Caledonian islands swell up to a hundred times their size? Is this actually a magic setting, after all?
 
Here's something you must see

Nippon Caliphate

kaiserland.fandom.com

Second Boxer Rebellion

The Second Boxer Rebellion or the Second Sino-Japanese War is a War fought between the Japanese Empire and various opposition groups against the Empire that has began since 1929. The War had began when Non-Japanese Asians under Japanese Domination were tired of being subjugated under Pan-Asian...

The Culture of England is a Post Apocalyptic Feudalistic Culture which is a Feudal Economy. The only legal schools are schools are Schools ruled by the Church and Union of Fascists. Only the Children of the Urban Areas are allowed to go to these schools and the Government decides what job or career they have for their lives. The Aristocrats and Peasants in the rural areas are not allowed to go to school or even have an education at all. Any parent trying to get their kids in school will be severely punished and executed as their kids will be transported to the Workhouse to slave away making roads and machines with no food, no clothes and no pay.
 
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I have something much worse
kaiserland.fandom.com

Kaiserland Wiki

Axis Powers, featuring Soviet Russia and the United States (because the British sank Lusitania, no less?) But Russia still ends up balkanized? Schlieffen Plan, but Belgium decides that the Germans crossing their borders aren't a declaration of war, so the British counter-invasion? through The Netherlands also results in said country remaining neutral? African people thinking Germany would respect their independence, after Herero? After France falls, neutral countries declare on Germany? Persia is the rightful ruler of India because of Tamerlane? Zeppelin Blitz?

"The Russian civil war was lost as the Soviets conquered Scotland, Iceland and Greenland" is a real sentence from their WWI article, apparently.

Australia and New Zealand are American colonies now? Balkanized Canada, including one that is native-controlled?

I don't even care about realism at this point, that was wild.
 
Lol, no. The cultural revolution was the public part of what was essentially a massive internal party conflict between the Maoist left and Dengist right. It was the death spasm of actual communism in the PRC, a desperate attempt to return to a popularly based party. At the end of the cultural revolution, actual mass democratic institutions (city communes etc) in the PRC would be abolished by the victorious party rightists to solidify the oligarchic party-state. mao himself was barely involved outside a figurehead role, and in point of fact was about to die of old age.

:Citation Needed:

This is the first I've heard of Mao just being a figurehead.
 
:Citation Needed:

This is the first I've heard of Mao just being a figurehead.
Mao was basically a George Washington figure. He wasn't powerless, and represented a definite faction of the Party, but was by the 70s extremely old and de facto retired (though he remained the Great Helmsman, a great propaganda figure). The best way I can decribe the weird dynamics of the late Mao era was if George Washington founded the country, stepped down, and retired, but then kept writing columns to newspapers, providing unsolicited opinions, and generally getting in the way without ever technically doing any politicianing.

You could definitely argue that he was still exercising informal power, especially since many high level party figures still asked him for advice. But he wasn't, strictly speaking, in charge of anything.
 
Mao was basically a George Washington figure. He wasn't powerless, and represented a definite faction of the Party, but was by the 70s extremely old and de facto retired (though he remained the Great Helmsman, a great propaganda figure). The best way I can decribe the weird dynamics of the late Mao era was if George Washington founded the country, stepped down, and retired, but then kept writing columns to newspapers, providing unsolicited opinions, and generally getting in the way without ever technically doing any politicianing.

You could definitely argue that he was still exercising informal power, especially since many high level party figures still asked him for advice. But he wasn't, strictly speaking, in charge of anything.

Do you … not understand what "citation" means?

Because this isn't a citation. This is just more unsupported assertions.
 
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