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Vespa

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Sandy River DL said:
Depending on just how Russia's doing, it could easily be there. A neo-Nazi group as a deniable way to destabilize old Cold War adversaries... And you know, what, I think I'll actually use that...
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People worshipping Hitler in Russia - this will be a very short story. In the 90s, during the devastation, there was an attempt to organize Nazi groups sponsored by democracy. While they were sitting quietly, Russians concerned about survival did not pay attention, but when the Nazis came out and began to preach their ideas. Well ... Those who survived are still behind bars
Use Ukraine, fascism is in full bloom there

the inscription on the poster "Shawarma is made from Russian children"
 
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STokun said:
People worshipping Hitler in Russia - this will be a very short story. In the 90s, during the devastation, there was an attempt to organize Nazi groups sponsored by democracy. While they were sitting quietly, Russians concerned about survival did not pay attention, but when the Nazis came out and began to preach their ideas. Well ... Those who survived are still behind bars
Use Ukraine, fascism is in full bloom there

the inscription on the poster "Shawarma from Russian children"
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My idea was the Russian government allowing Gesellschaft to have their actual HQ there because they could use it to 'get back' at Western Europe...
 
Sandy River DL said:
My idea was the Russian government allowing Gesellschaft to have their actual HQ there because they could use it to 'get back' at Western Europe...
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Will Taylor be a ship in this story? The Worm story is already fantasy full of plot holes, another hole of this size... Well, take a chance, I hope it will work out and it will be interesting. I love stories about Taylor and the Kantai Collection universe, but separately. I have not yet met a good crossover
 
STokun said:
Will Taylor be a ship in this story? The Worm story is already fantasy full of plot holes, another hole of this size... Well, take a chance, I hope it will work out and it will be interesting. I love stories about Taylor and the Kantai Collection universe, but separately. I have not yet met a good crossover
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Already got one of those, just need to actually get back to it. I was was talking about using it in my newest fic, and is it really a plot hole to have the country that gave the world the obviously neo-Nazi Wagner Group be sponsoring Gesellschaft?
 
PossiblyEnos said:
Them skirting the law inside Germany while networking with neo-Nazi groups outside is not Wildbow not doing research, it's real life.
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Isn't German politics rather different Earth Bet? From memory, the Berlin Wall didn't fall in the same way, so East Germany may be a serious mess. Russia certainly is (Behemoth wrecked Moscow 1995, after wrecking New York 1994) and it's unclear what the capital is. Russia had a seriously altered history, as Scion messed up the Cold War/MAD. Also, parahuman problems, Sleeper among others.

Eastern Europe is... in an unclear state. Neo-nazi groups? Who knows.
 
Ace Dreamer said:
Isn't German politics rather different Earth Bet? From memory, the Berlin Wall didn't fall in the same way, so East Germany may be a serious mess. Russia certainly is (Behemoth wrecked Moscow 1995, after wrecking New York 1994) and it's unclear what the capital is. Russia had a seriously altered history, as Scion messed up the Cold War/MAD. Also, parahuman problems, Sleeper among others.

Eastern Europe is... in an unclear state. Neo-nazi groups? Who knows.
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Without Russia's backing East Germany will have no longer been viable. Though, at that point in time West Germany might decide not to take on the economic mess that is East Germany and keep the border up to protect its own economy. Which probably results in a set of very unstable revolving door governments in the East trying to reform it into something viable and the West propping them up financially. That could result in a rise of a more structured neo-Nazi organisation.

But more to the point, Wildbow said the Gesellschaft out of Germany provides support to American neo-Nazis. Which is a viable possiblity. He did not elaborate how the Gesellschaft organises and acts WITHIN Germany. It's the fans that insists that the organisation therefore has to be fully open and publicly goose-stepping there and thus Wildbow is a hack.
 
It's quite possible that a huge amount of it is fanon, but the likelihood of Germany having been taken control of by member of Gesselschaft is high, since it is made clear that they are a clear and present worry, and with a name like that, likely in Germany. The anti=Nazi laws well predate the age of parahumans, so for Germany to not be stomping furiously on Gesselschaft?

It's proof of why an author needs to think of the implications of what they're doing in their world building. To have such a huge difference in Germany ever since the age of parahumans started? There has to be an explanation somewhere that can't just be waved away as ignorable. It's supposed to be the real world, but where powers came into existence in the 80s. That means you need to know the world history to that point, and if you're putting a Nazi organization in Germany once parahumans exist? As an author, you NEED to have an explanation for why things changed, which would also change the political landscape on a HUGE scale.

Sorry, but I'm something of a history nerd, who has a friend who is even MORE of a history nerd than I am. (He's the only guy I know who can legitimately find a way to drop a reference to Frederick III into a conversation and have it be relevant. (Of course, with that group, we have some VERY odd conversations...)) So things like a group such as Gesselschaft setting up in Germany in the 80s? If I asked him, he'd end up writing a treatise on the issue and what would have to have happened to allow for that. *laugh*

Just that article that was posted gives a good reason - look at the fact that the German government is prosecuting people in their 90s for being Nazis. It's 2025, and the woman's case was in 2022. They were still going after her roughly 80 years afterwards. So yeah, I have issues with that group setting up in Germany, alright ...
 
PossiblyEnos said:
But more to the point, Wildbow said the Gesellschaft out of Germany provides support to American neo-Nazis. Which is a viable possiblity. He did not elaborate how the Gesellschaft organises and acts WITHIN Germany. It's the fans that insists that the organisation therefore has to be fully open and publicly goose-stepping there and thus Wildbow is a hack.
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Maybe we should consider ourselves lucky Earth Bet doesn't have a Latvaria, with Doomstadt as its capital?
 
The other reason Gesselschaft makes no sense is that they're Nazis with superpowers, and they basically had to have gotten started in the late 80s or mid 90s, presumably, when there were a lot more people who had lived through the Holocaust, including as people in power.
There's basically no way that the Israelis would not have tried to assassinate the lot of them, and put sizeable prices on the heads of those that got away from their kill teams.

Ace Dreamer said:
Maybe we should consider ourselves lucky Earth Bet doesn't have a Latvaria, with Doomstadt as its capital?
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Oh, please. Dr Doom ruling Latveria is basically exactly what RCB and company want, except he's more competent and less evil.
 
Kinsfire said:
No, it's made clear amongst the E88 that Gesselschaft is one of the oversea backers. That means that they not only can't be American, but also can't be in Canada or Mexico.
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Emphasis on the 'could'.
Though whose to say that what E88 'knows' is true is actually true.
Ace Dreamer said:
Maybe we should consider ourselves lucky Earth Bet doesn't have a Latvaria, with Doomstadt as its capital?
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I would say that Dr Doom would be an improvement for Bet.
 
Kinsfire said:
No, it's made clear amongst the E88 that Gesselschaft is one of the oversea backers. That means that they not only can't be American, but also can't be in Canada or Mexico.
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Or, probably stepping into crack fic territory, they're running things out of Martha's Vineyard. The reason their followers have such an obsession with both Nazis and Norse mythology is because they think they're the Nazi government-in-exile that intermarried with the lost secret descendants of Vinland. Their grandparents never admitted to either of those things, but they got the idea while in middle school, and any evidence to the contrary is obviously part of the effort to preserve the secret society.
 
The only thing that could plausibly allow for the existence of Gesselschaft would be the Endbringers. Their attacks are probably inducing uncontrolled migration of refugees from areas attacked by the conflict engines which began overwhelming other nations in a domino effect (much like climate change is already doing in our world).

It is also possible that both Behemoth and Leviathan are altering the planet's climate by diverting ocean currents or messing with the planet's magnetic field which would put even more pressure.

It is the perfect fertile ground for fascist organizations to start growing members and power.
 
Guys, you're missing a pretty big way they could be in control of Germany in ways that Americans are aware of.

The leader of Gesselschaft might be a human Master who is fairly quick to be able to take control over someone. Master 8 or 9 most likely.

At least they aren't Mama Mathers (Stranger 11). That particular bit of BS was saved for the Fallen.
 
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Kinsfire said:
It's quite possible that a huge amount of it is fanon, but the likelihood of Germany having been taken control of by member of Gesselschaft is high, since it is made clear that they are a clear and present worry, and with a name like that, likely in Germany. The anti=Nazi laws well predate the age of parahumans, so for Germany to not be stomping furiously on Gesselschaft?
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Again, there have been Nazi organisations within modern Germany ever since the end of WWII but they were very careful to toe the line of the law to not be stomped down. Heck, the Vertriebenenverbände were a breeding ground for that ideology.
And the name "Gesellschaft" is a generic term meaning society, company or just group of people linked together by some kind of ties. As a name for an organisation without any further qualifier in the name it is offensively bland and nondescript. Which indicates to that they can't act with impunity in Germany but have to keep up some kind of societal facade.
Kytheros said:
Oh, please. Dr Doom ruling Latveria is basically exactly what RCB and company want, except he's more competent and less evil.
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No. That is EXACTLY what they want. No "except"? They are not building shit castles because they love shit so much, they are building shit castles because shit is the only material they can see.
 
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