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Unexpected Glory (A CK2-style Quest)

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So by my count we have 90 options to choose from, not including another 15 suboptions.

My eyes started to glaze over when I read the first 20. Then I skimmed the next 20. Then I just started counting them for fun.

I do not know how to work with that big of an information array. I have difficulties reading the single existing plan (probably by one hero who managed to read this to the end), because it involves wading through all these options to find the ones the plan is referring to. If another plan were to appear (though I am sceptical about it), I do not know how I would even compare them against each other.

Let me quote veekie's words of wisdom on the matter:
veekie said:
Well, it's also important to highlight that people's decision making capability, in general diminish once presented with more than 5 choices(individuals vary, but for quests you're appealing to common denominators), and go away entirely for most once you hit 10 items.

You can extend this of course, by splitting them into categories, which, in part is what made the Dynasty Quest so successful. It lets you throw 20+ choices at once, disguised as 3-5 choices, spread over 5 choices. People compartmentalize and pick the best in each area. Some may go for synergy across areas, but this is easily filed as a modifier on one or two choices most of the time.

Players also sometimes mitigate this on their own by developing decision-making shortcuts like "Always take extra actions first", "Family first", "Fuck Chaos" and "Time limited actions first". This lets them eliminate some of the decisions with autopicks.

You can also worsen this by just putting [] Write In Only, which turns a simple 1 item vote into an unlimited choice search space.

Once you trigger this, you run into the bandwagon effect. People reach their mental fatigue threshold on decision making and just wait for someone who look like they know what they are doing to vote, or who caters to the one or two items they had decided are important. Then they jump on that vote without really caring about the other items.
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If this isn't what you envision for the decision making process in the quest, I would strongly suggest doing something to cut down on the number of options presented at once.
 
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Walliseatscheese said:
May I recommend doing something like limiting the bonus to 1/2 of the roll? Because directly adding to it is a big boost.
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It can be. But you might also roll two 5's.

In the grand scheme of things I'm comfortable with the balance as it is. I can always rebalance it later if necessary.


Nevill said:
So by my count we have 90 options to choose from, not including another 15 suboptions.

My eyes started to glaze over when I read the first 20. Then I skimmed the next 20. Then I just started counting them for fun.

I do not know how to work with that big of an information array. I have difficulties reading the single existing plan (probably by one hero who managed to read this to the end), because it involves wading through all these options to find the ones the plan is referring to. If another plan were to appear (though I am sceptical about it), I do not know how I would even compare them against each other.

Let ma quote veekie's words of wisdom on the matter:

If this isn't what you envision for the decision making process in the quest, I would strongly suggest doing something to cut down on the number of options presented at once.
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Wow. I never actually tallied them all up together. That is a lot of options. I'll have to think about how to cut down on things a bit.
 
Ooof yeah the amount of options just isnt sustainable , and will actively negatively impact your quest in the long run as people are too busy to read through all the options and fight over minor differences in plans and just oooooof.

My eyes glazed over, I just found out it updated and looked at it and as I'm busy at work I just dont have time to go over every detail or make a plan.

I think you cam kind of see that as everyone is voting for pretty much the same plan right now. Plus I'm on mobile so the wall of text is super hard
 
There is a successfully running CK2 quest by Slayer Anderson, who nipped this problem in the bud. Perhaps it's worth taking a look?
Slayer Anderson said:
We'll be doing turns in phases.

Phase 1 will be Martial/Diplo/Stewardship.
Phase 2 will be Intrigue/Learning/Piety.
Phase 3 will be Personal.

This will drag things out a little, but if I didn't do it this way, turns would be just fucking massive for me to write, and really intimidating for players besides. Way too much stuff to juggle for a single post/voting session.
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He gives ~5 options per category, and we constantly have 3-4 different plans floating around, although only 1-2 of them get mass recognition. Still an improvement over not being able to understand a plan (as understanding comes from weighing the costs and benefits against rival plans).

Although even when split into phases, the vote options as they stand now would still reach a massive 30 entries, so some culling would be inevitable even then.

Alternatively... you already have votes within a category split into subcategories. We Have (No) Reserves / Wild Blue Yonder / Orc Hunting, or reach out to subjects / neighbours / Imperial connections. People may choose a broader category at first, and then decide on the exact details next phase. It'd be harder to work with the dice pool without seeing the DC, though, but I am sure something can be arranged.
 
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Balancing the right amount of options is going to take some practice, I think. Especially because part of my reason for writing this quest was that the kingdom management elements appeal to me, so while I understand where you're coming from a part of me doesn't want to cut down on it at all.

But that's probably because as the author I'm about as invested as you can get. I know what it's like to be on the other side of things, and I'm not expecting everyone else to work harder just because I can't be reasonable. I'll come up with a way to cut back on the options bloat and make this more manageable. This will probably always be a quest on the heavy side, but I want it to be at least approachable.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll work on it.
 
What you can do is have the baby step method.

Certain actions are unlocked by doing previous actions , also make certain actions take multiple turns thus cutting down on the fighting every turn to see what were gonna do in that category.

Generally I think your giving too many AP points to choose actions , and that might be affecting it . But yeah the amount of votes is gonna turn off plenty of players as well as give an unbalanced amount of power to certain plan makers as people just decide to trust them and go along what they want as they themselves just dont have the time, patience or energy to go through every detail of every plan and out weigh the pros and cons especially when theres just SO MANY OPTIONS. D:

The internal struggle is real man
 
Mr.rodent said:
Certain actions are unlocked by doing previous actions
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Actually, I was already planning on doing that. Yes, on top of the options you've already got. :rofl:

Granted, I was thinking of it as a method for replacing the options as you take them, so things would stay roughly the same size. And that kind of process is still feasible. There's no reason I can't just have things stabilize at a smaller size that's easier to take in.

We'll see, anyway. It's a little late for this update, but I think I can get things trimmed down to an easier size next turn.
 
Well you can always handwave the reason we have so many options is becuase it's the first turn and everything in our kingdom is on fire.

Our poor poor steward....

As things get better obviously the amount of glaring flaws will decrease leaving only the most important
 
Mr.rodent said:
Generally I think your giving too many AP points to choose actions
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This too, although I see it a bit differently.
StormyAngel said:
Each roll will use 1d100 + (Your stat) + (Category Minister's Stat) + (Any Miscellaneous Bonuses/Maluses). The required minimum will be listed with the option, so the players can tell how hard a given task might be.
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The current system incentivizes spreading the rolls, as bonuses are counted separately for each roll. This means that our massive Diplomacy bonus of +42 gets more influental the more actions we take, prompting us to take a lot of diplo actions to make the most out of it. Or prompting the GM to artificially rack up the difficulty on diplo actions in an attempt to balance things out.

This may have been intended, since diplomacy is supposed to be our best stat, but I am afraid this may lead to action bloat.

Depending on whether it is something that even needs to be changed, solutions are available. Say, the stat bonuses could be made into a pool and then used to bring us over DC if dice are not sufficient.
 
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Looking over the vote options, I think a probable source of option bloat would be the multiple... topics? or situations underneath each category. In a more typical CK2 quest, a lot of those categories would just be options in their own right, with possibly a sub-vote or two, instead of being a category with options under it. It's all very specific at the moment, when it doesn't necessarily have to be.
 
Mr.rodent said:
Well you can always handwave the reason we have so many options is becuase it's the first turn and everything in our kingdom is on fire.

Our poor poor steward....

As things get better obviously the amount of glaring flaws will decrease leaving only the most important
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"M'lord! The orc--" "Sir Astor, may I have your attention to the nava--" "EXCUSE ME, but the FARMERS ARE REVOLTING!" "...What's new? I would prefer some extra res--" "Shut up, smart-man! We do not need your 'hard-magic', because real magic is all you--"
"Rick, can you get these idiots out of my office? This is really eating into my composition time for your... ballad."
 
This plan focus on establishing the imperial law, clearing away the labor issues, investigates the truth of the trade situation, and making effort to optimize patrol situation. Communicators are important as it keeps patrol forces in clear contact with base as well as being an excellent tool. Edit: Clearing up the law and putting people make to work also removes the low quality grumbling from the hostile population like "no work and income to feed family" and "that punishment is total bullshit, no one said i can't pee on the street!".

[X] Plan Law & Tax
-[X] Military Buildup x2
-[X] A Property Mess x2
-[X] Clarify the Law x3
-[X] Tax Relief
-[X] Tax Slump x2
-[X] The Docks are Full x2
-[X] Inefficient Patrols
-[X] Communicators x2
-[X] [Personal] Dominic
-[X] [Personal] Cautious Inquiry
-[X] [Free] Write back with a brief summary of your time here, omitting any sensitive details, but otherwise reassuring them that you're fine.
-[X] [Free] Nabelle: She did ask
 
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[X] Plan Handling Issues & Basics

Eh, my only difference would of been Meditation, but everything else is fine by me. Well, except the "give mom money too" part, since she didn't ask. Like, giving his little sis some money is sweet, but throwing even more of his limited money at his mother who doesn't need the help...
 
Kkutlord said:
Eh, my only difference would of been Meditation, but everything else is fine by me. Well, except the "give mom money too" part, since she didn't ask. Like, giving his little sis some money is sweet, but throwing even more of his limited money at his mother who doesn't need the help...
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Meditation I was assuming could lead to boost in sorcery stat or unlocking a certain chain of options. The mom getting a little bit of money, I probably should have included a write-in going think of this as a belated present to make up for me not being there at the moment or something. Also not going to lie, I actively had to sit down and read through every option talk about each category and what I saw as the best option and which to pick all while arranging them into a plan at 1 am in my time zone. So... yeah. Sorry if it isn't perfect lol, I admit I didn't choose all the best options but I definitely did what I could.
 
Mean I don't really mind, I don't know what approach to take myself. I just figure Rick's mom wouldn't be happy he's spending money on her, when he has an entire population to take care of.
 
Kkutlord said:
Mean I don't really mind, I don't know what approach to take myself. I just figure Rick's mom wouldn't be happy he's spending money on her, when he has an entire population to take care of.
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I'm assuming this is our own personal money, the stuff that we kept and saved up to use on ourself. Not money intended for the realm/land we're governing. If it is, then I'll remove doing that. No ands, ifs, or buts about it.
 
Mr.rodent said:
Well you can always handwave the reason we have so many options is becuase it's the first turn and everything in our kingdom is on fire.

Our poor poor steward....

As things get better obviously the amount of glaring flaws will decrease leaving only the most important
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At the moment this is definitely the plan.

Nevill said:
bonuses are counted separately for each roll
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Isn't that how CK2 quests normally work?

Altered said:
I'm assuming this is our own personal money, the stuff that we kept and saved up to use on ourself. Not money intended for the realm/land we're governing. If it is, then I'll remove doing that. No ands, ifs, or buts about it.
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Ah, nope. It's straight from the vault. That being said, it's truly negligible. You aren't that poor.

Yet. :whistle:
 
Walliseatscheese said:
Plus I imagine that when we say "a little money" it's the equivalent of sending them both fifty bucks. More than Rickie might have been able to spare before, enough for a nice treat, but nothing that would actually affect the budget.
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"Lord Astor, please hear our pleas!"

"Whaa--Greetings, citizen, what plights trouble you so?"

"Oh, the city! The city, great Lord! The city needed 1000 gold to pay the construction crew to clear the debris, but we were short 50 gold!"

"...and that has caused a problem?"

"Yes, milord! The captain of the crew had become furious at his meager payment, and took his frankly unrighteous anger upon my home, dumping the debris there!"

"...your home?"

"Oh, it was horrible! Our ancestral home, passed down for generations, containing all our valuables, crushed under stone and wood!"

"...and you say this was due to a paltry sum of... 50 gold?"

"Yes, milord! It seems like enough for a nice treat for one's family members, or nothing that would actually affect the budget of a city!"

"Uhhhh... yes... I wonder what could have done... that... the perpetrators will be caught!" *sweats profusely*
 
Nevill said:
It is, but not every quest comes with 15 action points to spend.

I take it the idea was that some of those AP would be combined together to augment one's chances, but the system incentivizes spreading, not consolidating.
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@StormyAngel petition to have issues we need to address each turn based on each advisor category?
Like "Orcs come raiding" would be a martial issue, then we need to pick an option. That would be the main/major issue for that season. There would be ~2 other minor options per category, but no more, since we need to invest our action dice into the issues we find important, though the main issues would be the one "free dice" we get per advisor.
Example:
"Major issue, Sir! The Orcs are raiding again!"
[]Shoot them
[]Shoo them away
[]Shop for explosives to blow them up

"Minor issue: there have been brawls with soldiers, and they are becoming unruly!"
[]Shoot them
[]Discipline them

"Minor issue: there's been sightings of bandits, more than usual!"
[]Shoot them
[]Negotiate

How's that?
 
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Nevill said:
It is, but not every quest comes with 15 action points to spend.

I take it the idea was that some of those AP would be combined together to augment one's chances, but the system incentivizes spreading, not consolidating.
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Actually the reason I included so many action dice was a subconscious response to providing a ton of options. I was worried people would feel like they weren't given enough to cover all the necessities. I probably should have taken note of that as an indicator that I was providing too many options, but meh. Hindsight. :rolleyes:


Plausitivity said:
@StormyAngel petition to have issues we need to address each turn based on each advisor category?
Like "Orcs come raiding" would be a martial issue, then we need to pick an option. That would be the main/major issue for that season. There would be ~2 other minor options per category, but no more, since we need to invest our action dice into the issues we find important, though the main issues would be the one "free dice" we get per advisor.
Example:
"Major issue, Sir! The Orcs are raiding again!"
[]Shoot them
[]Shoo them away
[]Shop for explosives to blow them up

"Minor issue: there have been brawls with soldiers, and they are becoming unruly!"
[]Shoot them
[]Discipline them

"Minor issue: there's been sightings of bandits, more than usual!"
[]Shoot them
[]Negotiate

How's that?
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This would be a successful method for cutting down on the bloat, but it also unfortunately cuts out what I consider one of the central features of this quest: allowing you guys to chart your own course. For example, If I tell you the issue you'll be dealing with this season is orcs, and then let you pick the how, then how are you ever going to become merchant princes?

I've got plenty of ideas for how to cut down on things, though. I'm not really worried. I can guarantee the next turn will work better, now that I've got a chance to see how this one played out.


In related news, the vote closes in 2 hours. If anyone wants to spend their radical cookies or dice manipulations you have about 15 hours to tell me, because I've got work shortly after I close the vote, and I won't be able to work on the update anyway.
 
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Spend Dice Manipulation/Radical Cookies on higher DC options to ensure those are likely to pass, that is all I have to say. Thanks for hearing me out and may we find Glory.
 
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