Under the Open Sky (CWMGQ Spinoff)

kelllogo · Oct 15, 2017

LostDeviljho said:
Juggernaut and Armor Pierce would never be on the same attack. Juggernaut would simply replace Armor Pierce upon the attack growing high enough level to gain it.
The same applies to most ability "chains". Thick Armor and Adamantine are exceptions.

I thought they could stack since they added up nicely to 100%. In that case the Aegis Field evolution would be at level 125.

LostDeviljho said:
Didn't we discuss this when it was first revealed and we realized we were all forgetting that Supremacy doesn't effect damage reducing abilities?

To Defy the Gods isn't working off of End Damage, so doesn't pass that test. Same with Aegis Field, it adds Resilience instead of reducing damage.

I'm modeling Supremacy as being able to overwhelm most conditional defenses. So it tells the -- wait, Affinity-based effects are supposed to still work...

Anyways, Supremacy makes the "does attacker have an Existence bonus" test return false, and the "how much damage do you think you did" test return false. Probably while spouting something like "I am the rules". The abilities that get past it either do something with Affinities or affect End Damage.

ltmauve · Oct 15, 2017

LostDeviljho said:
Didn't we discuss this when it was first revealed and we realized we were all forgetting that Supremacy doesn't effect damage reducing abilities?

Uh?

Supremacy: Supremacy negates all an opponent's defensive abilities that don't fall under either outright damage reduction (like INDESCRUCTIBLE CORE's 99%, Red Rose's 20% (Recursive), No Longer Human's 50%), or an ability that directly targets one of the Affinities for the attack, if they do not have a Rule affinity. "Saves from Death" are also canceled.

Looks like it would effect Aegis Field (It's not damage reduction, it's resilience increase. I mean, what other kinds of defensive abilities ) but not To Defy The Gods, as that should count as affinity-targeting.
Edit: Ninja'd

kelllogo said:
Aegis Field evolves when it reaches the point where an attack that has both Juggernaut and Armor Pierce can't bypass the bonus Resilience.

Uh, I just checked the ability bible and Armor Pierce and Juggernaut both say "base resilience", not bonus resilience. So it evolves at Level 100 instead?
I'm also not sure where you're getting 125 or 135 from, since if all resilience was reduced Armor Pierce would require 133% reduction and Juggernaut would require 400% reduction.

kelllogo · Oct 15, 2017

ltmauve said:
I'm also not sure where you're getting 125 or 135 from, since if all resilience was reduced Armor Pierce would require 133% reduction and Juggernaut would require 400% reduction.

I'm assuming by that point Summit will be rolling with Thick Armor and Adamantine at all times.

I'm not sure what to say about the Base Resilience part. I've been running it as the defensive string having a resilience component that gets targeted by Juggernaut and Armor Pierce.

ReaperofInterest · Oct 16, 2017

So, it looks like thanks to purchasing Formidable Defenses, we now have a permanent Thick Armor ability on our Panoply, in addition to the level four Protean ability. That's rather nice, don't you think? Oh sure, I admit Adamantine would be better, but now instead of having two use two Protean slots to improve our defense from Armor Pierce and Juggernaut, we only need one at most.

Now, when do you think we'll get a permanent Adamantine ability? Perhaps Thick Armor will be upgraded to Adamantine, and we'll gain Thick Armor again later? That would make sense, don't you think?

ShadowAngelBeta · Oct 16, 2017

I just realized, how have we not picked up Anti-Air yet from eating something?

justinkal · Oct 16, 2017

So now that we've got Protean (Lvl 4), I put some thought into what kind of combos are good for different generic scenarios.

Here's what I've got. Please add in your own ideas.

Pure Melee: Intercept + Crush + Double Hit + Rain of Blows
Pure Ranged1: Multi-Shot + Danmaku + Laser + [variable]
Pure Magic2: Spell Boost + Multi-Caster (Lvl 3)
Melee/Magic Mix: Intercept + Crush + Spell Boost + Multi-Caster (Lvl 1)
Ranged/Magic Mix: Multi-Shot + Danmaku + Spell Boost + Multi-Caster (Lvl 1)
Mixed All: Intercept + Crush + Multi-Shot + Spell Boost
Long Range Slaughterfest: Multi-Shot + Ordnance + Collateral Damage + Anti-Infantry
Maximum Tanking3: Intercept + Crush + Adamantine + Multi-Caster (Lvl 1)

Notes:

Take out Laser if Ceaseless Warrior stack is very low.
I got Word of God the other day on Discord that Multi-Caster + Wave Force is in fact valid, but only if it's the slow version followed by the quickcast Grand Dispel version.
Multi-Caster so that we can cancel more magic with Quell.

ltmauve · Oct 16, 2017

kelllogo said:
I'm not sure what to say about the Base Resilience part. I've been running it as the defensive string having a resilience component that gets targeted by Juggernaut and Armor Pierce.

From Unifier Drive in the main quest:

THE END: 11,500 Base Damage, +165 Dice, +4,600 Full Auto, +4,600 Full Auto, +4,600 Full Auto, +4,600 Full Auto, +4,600 Full Auto, +638x45 Full Auto, +780 Divine Inspiration, +500 Hostile Divinity Effect = 64,655 193,965 Total Damage
Demon King: 5,000 Base Resilience, +1,439 Dice, -3,250 Armor Break, -3,750 Juggernaut, +300 Legendary Existence = 261 Extra Damage!

3750 is 75% of 5000, so it doesn't change based on MM, Armor Break, or Existence bonuses in the main quest.
Right now our NST against normal attacks is 1250, with Armor Pierce and Thick Armor it's 1015.625, and with Juggernaut and Thick Armor it's 546 according to how crys does it. If we do it your way we get NSTs of 970 and 479.
This also means Anna reaches invulnerability to non-Unstoppable attacks at 100% Aegis for main quest and 123% for how you described. (Assuming we get permanent Adamantine and Thick Armor by then)
I am going to make a chart of the difference between the two methods. When do we get our permanent armor upgrades?

FatedBread · Oct 16, 2017

ShadowAngelBeta said:
I just realized, how have we not picked up Anti-Air yet from eating something?

Summit's still working down her list of foods, but she may or may not have jumped straight to Asura.

More seriously its a merit shop ability so I guess it cant just be easily picked up? But I think there's a pretty good chance to get it this mission. Summit can notice one of the (slagged) Anti-Air guns and just fuse with it to deal with the Aerial units currently harassing the platform.

kelllogo · Oct 16, 2017

ltmauve said:
From Unifier Drive in the main quest:

3750 is 75% of 5000, so it doesn't change based on MM, Armor Break, or Existence bonuses in the main quest.
Right now our NST against normal attacks is 1250, with Armor Pierce and Thick Armor it's 1015.625, and with Juggernaut and Thick Armor it's 546 according to how crys does it. If we do it your way we get NSTs of 970 and 479.
This also means Anna reaches invulnerability to non-Unstoppable attacks at 100% Aegis for main quest and 123% for how you described. (Assuming we get permanent Adamantine and Thick Armor by then)
I am going to make a chart of the difference between the two methods. When do we get our permanent armor upgrades?

The issue I have with basing Juggernaut only from base Resilience is the Greater Nightmares. If there's no way to punch through that added Resilience then only Unstoppable is any use and the Myth/Legend reduction is pointless.

Adamantine gets added at level 50 with Formidable Defenses.

justinkal · Oct 16, 2017

kelllogo said:
The issue I have with basing Juggernaut only from base Resilience is the Greater Nightmares. If there's no way to punch through that added Resilience then only Unstoppable is any use and the Myth/Legend reduction is pointless.

Legend MG: 1,000 Total Damage.
Greater Nightmare: 3,000 Base Resilience, +2,000 False Existence, -1,000 Weak to Legend, -2,250 Juggernaut, -1,000 Smite = 750 Damage Reduction

250 Total End Damage

Small amount of damage, but it works. Greater Nightmares are feared for a reason.

Oh, and the secondary effect of Judgement/Smite works too.

When used by someone with two positive affinities against someone with two negative, negates all resistances.

Faraway-R · Oct 18, 2017

kelllogo said:
Pioneer
-3500xp
-Panoply Level 30
Seek out new understanding, you may yet eff the ineffable.

I think this option needs to have the Panoply Level 30 requirement crossed out. Which means we're capable of learning one of the capstones currently visible... Once we get the XP.

The other two need 30 in Ceaseless Warrior (21) and Aegis Field (20), btw.

kelllogo said:
[X] Why is there a girl wandering in from the UD's lines?

[X] Dear God, what are those horrible flowing things? (PROBABLY CERTAIN DEATH)

LostDeviljho said:
*temptation to vote for invisitext option for giggles intensifies*

Yeah, good thing Mook Rush won out.

justinkal said:
I got Word of God the other day on Discord that Multi-Caster + Wave Force is in fact valid, but only if it's the slow version followed by the quickcast Grand Dispel version.

Ummm. Questions.
1) And what would that result in, specifically? I'm new-ish to quest and would like an extended explanation.
2) Multi-Caster can be upgraded. How would THAT affect things?

kelllogo · Oct 18, 2017

justinkal said:
Legend MG: 1,000 Total Damage.
Greater Nightmare: 3,000 Base Resilience, +2,000 False Existence, -1,000 Weak to Legend, -2,250 Juggernaut, -1,000 Smite = 750 Damage Reduction

250 Total End Damage

Small amount of damage, but it works. Greater Nightmares are feared for a reason.

Oh, and the secondary effect of Judgement/Smite works too.

Counterpoint, Myth level is supposed to have a way through.

Strike Without Blows (Judgement, Juggernaut): Base Damage Withheld, Dice Withheld, +2000 Mythic Power = 2000 Damage

Scary Terry: 4000 Resilience, Dice Negated, +4000 False Existence, -1000 Weak to Myth, -3000 Juggernaut, -2000 Hostile Myth Effect = 2000 Damage Reduction

vs

Scary Terry: 4000 Resilience, Dice Negated, +4000 False Existence, -1000 Weak to Myth, -5250 Juggernaut, -2000 Hostile Myth Effect = 250 Extra Damage

In the first case a perfect storm of armor punching while using the x10 Existence true power-up can't hurt a Nightmare, and that's with an attack that has the lowest possible damage! More powerful Myth attacks would become less effective against Nightmares. This would render Greater Nightmares effectively immune to anything less than the 30 Epic-Tier or above beings (and the peeps with Unstoppable).

For the second case they're still a huge pain, but War Angels and other big hitters with Juggernaut can contest them. And the weakness to Myth and Legend actually means something since the armor piercing effects help out against a weakened defense.

Faraway-R said:
Ummm. Questions.
1) And what would that result in, specifically? I'm new-ish to quest and would like an extended explanation.
2) Multi-Caster can be upgraded. How would THAT affect things?

Once Summit gets a handle on her new Wave Force she can prepare a normal casting with the a-bit-more-than-a-second windup time and stagger a quick-cast Wave Force to cast two at once.

So in situations where Summit could have used Wave Force before she has the option to dual-cast it if she spares a slot for Multi-Caster. More Protean slots used for Multi-Caster doesn't improve this since the quick cast version stops all spells from being casts in a small radius, and Summit is at the center of that radius.

justinkal · Oct 18, 2017

kelllogo said:
In the first case a perfect storm of armor punching while using the x10 Existence true power-up can't hurt a Nightmare, and that's with an attack that has the lowest possible damage! More powerful Myth attacks would become less effective against Nightmares. This would render Greater Nightmares effectively immune to anything less than the 30 Epic-Tier or above beings (and the peeps with Unstoppable).

You forgot the other part of my post. Smite helps way more than Judgement does, particularly with the secondary effect. If the Greater Nightmare has two negative affinities, then Judgement and Smite can replicate the effect of Unstoppable.

LostDeviljho · Oct 18, 2017

kelllogo said:
For the second case they're still a huge pain, but War Angels and other big hitters with Juggernaut can contest them.

Pretty sure it was made a point that they can't really do that. Which is why everyone is scared shitless of them.

But really the easy way to resolve this is tag @Crystalwatcher and ask.

Crystalwatcher · Oct 18, 2017

Ask me what?

ReaperofInterest · Oct 18, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Ask me what?

If Armor-Pierce and Juggernaut have any effect on Greater Nightmare's False Existence resilience gains.

ltmauve · Oct 18, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Ask me what?

Kelllogo has a problem with juggernaut and AP because the way you describe them:

kelllogo said:
The issue I have with basing Juggernaut only from base Resilience is the Greater Nightmares. If there's no way to punch through that added Resilience then only Unstoppable is any use and the Myth/Legend reduction is pointless.

kelllogo said:
In the first case a perfect storm of armor punching while using the x10 Existence true power-up can't hurt a Nightmare, and that's with an attack that has the lowest possible damage! More powerful Myth attacks would become less effective against Nightmares. This would render Greater Nightmares effectively immune to anything less than the 30 Epic-Tier or above beings (and the peeps with Unstoppable).

For the second case they're still a huge pain, but War Angels and other big hitters with Juggernaut can contest them. And the weakness to Myth and Legend actually means something since the armor piercing effects help out against a weakened defense.

Most people flat-out can't damage them. And since Summit is apparently getting her own knockoff version of this, it's actually pretty relevant.

justinkal · Oct 18, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Ask me what?

How math works for using armor piercing abilities against Greater Nightmares.

Crystalwatcher · Oct 18, 2017

Juggernaut would work, but Armor Pierce wouldn't.

Greater Nightmares are the kinds of creatures that aren't easily dealt with. At all. Under normal circumstances, when one of those show up, the most common response is to turn and run like hell. They weren't built to be fair, to be balanced, or be reasonable. Lesser Nightmares are relatively easy to deal with when compared to Greater Nightmares.

That's why they're called Greater. When you hit Story and start going up the ladder Magical Girls start getting abilities that would allow them to deal with that False Existence through the strength of their own Existence. It's something of a hidden conceptual battle that goes on in the background.

Does this answer your question?

ShadowAngelBeta · Oct 18, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Juggernaut would work, but Armor Pierce wouldn't.

Greater Nightmares are the kinds of creatures that aren't easily dealt with. At all. Under normal circumstances, when one of those show up, the most common response is to turn and run like hell. They weren't built to be fair, to be balanced, or be reasonable. Lesser Nightmares are relatively easy to deal with when compared to Greater Nightmares.

That's why they're called Greater. When you hit Story and start going up the ladder Magical Girls start getting abilities that would allow them to deal with that False Existence through the strength of their own Existence. It's something of a hidden conceptual battle that goes on in the background.

Does this answer your question?

So do all Story+ girls have something to let them punch through it? Cause a lot of the ones we've made don't really seem to. Or is it just something they may be able to purchase at some point in the future or after they run into a Greater Nightmare and survive.

Can you give any examples of some we might see on the various levels quickly/in short-hand?

justinkal · Oct 18, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Juggernaut would work, but Armor Pierce wouldn't.

Greater Nightmares are the kinds of creatures that aren't easily dealt with. At all. Under normal circumstances, when one of those show up, the most common response is to turn and run like hell. They weren't built to be fair, to be balanced, or be reasonable. Lesser Nightmares are relatively easy to deal with when compared to Greater Nightmares.

That's why they're called Greater. When you hit Story and start going up the ladder Magical Girls start getting abilities that would allow them to deal with that False Existence through the strength of their own Existence. It's something of a hidden conceptual battle that goes on in the background.

Does this answer your question?

No.

The question is specifically in regards to Math.

We know that Myth/Legend/Epic/Divinity get various tiers of reducing the effect of False Existence.

The question is whether Armor Pierce and Juggernaut function off of Base Resilience or off of (Base Resilience + False Existence).

In other words, take the following scenario:

Myth MG with Juggernaut has a Total Damage of 2,000.
Greater Nightmare being attacked has 1,000 Base Resilience.

Would the Defensive String contain "-750 Juggernaut" or would it contain "-3,000 Juggernaut"?

ShadowAngelBeta · Oct 18, 2017

... Oh. Right. I forgot they outright reduce the bonus from False Existence. Nevermind.

justinkal · Oct 18, 2017

ShadowAngelBeta said:
... Oh. Right. I forgot they outright reduce the bonus from False Existence. Nevermind.

Yeah. The question is about whether or not the bonus from False Existence is included when Armor Pierce and Juggernaut are calculating the value of their effect.

LostDeviljho · Oct 18, 2017

Aight so, to clear things up: Juggernaut (and to a more limited extent, Armor Pierce) reduces reduces all Resilience. To be clear, it doesn't reduce situational modifiers, or existence bonuses, or dice, it only reduces Base Resilience and buffs that explicitly say they increase Resilience, such as False Existence or Aegis Field.

Everything good now?

kelllogo · Oct 18, 2017

LostDeviljho said:
Everything good now?

That's exactly what I was already doing.

It's one of the ways Summit runs into trouble since her scaling defense can be reduced by stronger attackers.

Under the Open Sky (CWMGQ Spinoff)

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Herald of Disaster

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Flame Dragon Princess

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Herald of Disaster

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Flame Dragon Princess