Towards the Future

And the fact that we'd have to be in control of her actions and her 'potential dictatorship' for this is not a factor?
No, it isn't. Characters can take action beyond what we want them to. Look at this turn, look at Gal's implementation of resettlement or the decisions we got this turn, and tell me honestly it's no issue to have an authoritarian on top.
 
No, it isn't. Characters can take action beyond what we want them to. Look at this turn, look at Gal's implementation of resettlement or the decisions we got this turn, and tell me honestly it's no issue to have an authoritarian on top.

That's not what I said. I've already said Ros' views are problematic, however the idea that the fact we would control her doesn't matter is silly. Using the same example with Gal, in fact the exact same problem; resettlements. He fucked them up because he's Gal, as you said. And, despite his clear desire to compound on said fuckup we got the option to back off, and we did.

If Ros gets in power, which is quite possible, then there is indeed probably a path to where she creates an authoritariam sham democracy. However the idea that it's inevitable or that we don't have a say in the matter is just false. How she does things matter a hell of a lot, and we would have a lot of say in the how. And there's no way in hell we couldn't fuck it up, intentionally even, to the point where she has to give up the seat aswell.
 
That's not what I said. I've already said Ros' views are problematic, however the idea that the fact we would control her is silly. Using the same example with Gal, in fact the exact same problem; resettlements. He fucked them up because he's Gal, as you said. And, despite his clear desire to compound on said fuckup we got the option to back off, and we did.
We got that option because we happened to have Ròs in power, who happened to be able to make it clear how that would be a mistake. The characters we put in power limit our options. If we get no democratic reformers close to power, because Ròs eliminates everyone striving for reform, there will not be an option to transition to democracy.
If Ros gets in power, which is quite possible, then there is indeed probably a path to where she creates an authoritariam sham democracy. However the idea that it's inevitable or that we don't have a say in the matter is just false. How she does things matter a hell of a lot, and we would have a lot of say in the how. And there's no way in hell we couldn't fuck it up, intentionally even, to the point where she has to give up the seat aswell.
Well, that's ok then. If democracy dies in the next years, it will just return after decades of rule, when the regime fucks up. Who cares if we might kill our chance for democracy in the next few years, so long as it returns eventually.
And there is no chance that an authoritarian regime fucking up might just put a different authoritarian clique in charge, nope. Who has ever heard of one dictatorship leading to another.

I'm not saying authoritarianism is inevitable. I'm saying it can persist for long stretches of time, and once democracy dies, it can be gone for ages. If you are defending your points regarding Ròs regime by saying we might have a chance to eventually implement democracy decades from now, you are admitting there is a present risk to democracy. And you know, I would like to build a government without a surveillance state, which involves keeping Ròs influence low.
 
We got that option because we happened to have Ròs in power, who happened to be able to make it clear how that would be a mistake. The characters we put in power limit our options. If we get no democratic reformers close to power, because Ròs eliminates everyone striving for reform, there will not be an option to transition to democracy.

Well, that's ok then. If democracy dies in the next years, it will just return after decades of rule, when the regime fucks up. Who cares if we might kill our chance for democracy in the next few years, so long as it returns eventually.
And there is no chance that an authoritarian regime fucking up might just put a different authoritarian clique in charge, nope. Who has ever heard of one dictatorship leading to another.

I'm not saying authoritarianism is inevitable. I'm saying it can persist for long stretches of time, and once democracy dies, it can be gone for ages. If you are defending your points regarding Ròs regime by saying we might have a chance to eventually implement democracy decades from now, you are admitting there is a present risk to democracy. And you know, I would like to build a government without a surveillance state, which involves keeping Ròs influence low.

You're making huge leaps here to put all the pieces in place for her to become a dictator of her perfect police state. How did she eliminate everyone striving for reform when more then half of the military wants it (making the assumption that the conservatives don't want any reform which is false but I can believe a 'dark Ros' would be able to get them on her side)? How did she do that while also not having to give concessions to the population who will almost certainly demand elections if she coups Gal anyways, since our claim to legitimacy is one long running Bavarian fire drill and nothing else.

How. There is a way, I can see what you fear and I do think there is a path towards that way. However you are arguing under the assumption not that authoritarianism will persist forever, but that if Ros manages to get power that she'll successfully implement it. You've pointed out the dangers of Ros' ideas, and I agree with them, but you're still bowling over the fact that she is an idealist that does, in fact, believe in democracy. You're also ignoring the fact that she still has to play the current politics, making the assumption that Ros has eliminated the whole reformist wing somehow. That if she gets in power she will somehow have unilateral control and can decide policy ignoring all the people that would stand in her way if she went that route. And again, I don't think she's as authoritarian as you believe. She has authoritarian tendencies for sure, but she's still an idealist, and we will have a say in the matter.
 
You're making huge leaps here to put all the pieces in place for her to become a dictator of her perfect police state. How did she eliminate everyone striving for reform when more then half of the military wants it (making the assumption that the conservatives don't want any reform which is false but I can believe a 'dark Ros' would be able to get them on her side)?
I wouldn't describe the idea that our secret police, who we tasked to observe the military, might be able to eliminate Ròs opposition in the military as a leap. It's also not impossible to purge factions, especially when you are capable of slowing eliminating powerful dissenters via the secret police. Remember when the hardliners were a thing?
The description of eliminating every dissenter is the end-point of her stable regime. And yeah, I think a purge of the radicals and reformers would happen pretty early, eventually followed by Sincleir "betraying the state" or "having a unfortunate accident", followed by leadership of the conservatives defaulting to her.
However you are arguing under the assumption not that authoritarianism will persist forever
No, I make no such broad assertion. I'm going to say that that history has no end-point. And I'm going to assert that a long-lived authoritarian regime under Ròs would be a significant loss morally speaking.
How did she do that while also not having to give concessions to the population who will almost certainly demand elections if she coups Gal anyways, since our claim to legitimacy is one long running Bavarian fire drill and nothing else?
You're also ignoring the fact that she still has to play the current politics, making the assumption that Ros has eliminated the whole reformist wing somehow. That if she gets in power she will somehow have unilateral control and can decide policy ignoring all the people that would stand in her way if she went that route. And again, I don't think she's as authoritarian as you believe. She has authoritarian tendencies for sure, but she's still an idealist, and we will have a say in the matter.
You do realize Gal also has the idealist trait, right? Being an idealist about a specific system means a strong support for this position and being convinced this system couldn't fail, not that this system is good.
And I'm going to repeat a prior point about the danger of Ròs here, that authoritarianism can be a slow boil. Hold election, but eliminate dissenting parties. Curtail ministerial autonomy a bit further, nothing major. Replace some of the least competent ministers after they complain, while bringing in a new, democratically elected people belonging to approved parties. Arguably more democratic than the previous ones. Over the span of years, all that remains to be done is to get Sincleir out of the way, and stay in power until the regime has stabilized.

You previously made a compelling case for the idea that characters could do things behind our back. Well, I'm saying the risk is there and present. And I'm saying this threat to democracy is worth spending 3 resources, the cost of northern policing in the military.
 
I wouldn't describe the idea that our secret police, who we tasked to observe the military, might be able to eliminate Ròs opposition in the military as a leap. It's also not impossible to purge factions, especially when you are capable of slowing eliminating powerful dissenters via the secret police. Remember when the hardliners were a thing?
The description of eliminating every dissenter is the end-point of her stable regime. And yeah, I think a purge of the radicals and reformers would happen pretty early, eventually followed by Sincleir "betraying the state" or "having a unfortunate accident", followed by leadership of the conservatives defaulting to her.

Observing and eliminating is two different matters entirely. The hardliners got squeezed out of the system after they tried and failed to violently couped the government and the military under Singleir and the CSS both did an effort to minimize and push them out.

No, I make no such broad assertion. I'm going to say that that history has no end-point. And I'm going to assert that a long-lived authoritarian regime under Ròs would be a significant loss morally speaking.

You keep presenting the possible actions Ros could take without seeming to consider the point I tried but seems to have failed to bring up, which is that none of the actions you propose she could take to her path to becoming the ultimate leader are easy. Like, in your following segment:

And I'm going to repeat a prior point about the danger of Ròs here, that authoritarianism can be a slow boil. Hold election, but eliminate dissenting parties. Curtail ministerial autonomy a bit further, nothing major. Replace some of the least competent ministers after they complain, while bringing in a new, democratically elected people belonging to approved parties. Arguably more democratic than the previous ones. Over the span of years, all that remains to be done is to get Sincleir out of the way, and stay in power until the regime has stabilized.

These are not easy things to do, these are not quick actions to do. Slow boiling means it happens over several turns atleast, and that means actions happening under our direction. Which is the point I tried to make, that you seem to be taking them for granted, presenting a possible future while ignoring the fact that we would have a lot of control over said actions.

You do realize Gal also has the idealist trait, right? Being an idealist about a specific system means a strong support for this position and being convinced this system couldn't fail, not that this system is good.

Yes? How many times do I have to say that I agree that Ros has problematic ideas? My point is that you present what I consider to be one of the worst case Ros scenarios as a seeming inevitability. I could be reading your arguments wrong and you are just bringing up a danger without meaning to present it as an almost inevitability, in which case I apologize, however as presented that's what I am arguing against.

From what I can read from your argument you consider the possibility of a Ros coup to be a grave danger to a decent democracy, and that it would be followed by anti-democratic purges that we would not have any control over, and that seemingly are likely to succeed. I agree that a danger is presented, but I disagree with how large it is and how much control we would have over things. In fact, if Ros successfully couped Gal by bringing the military on board I'd rejoice, because I think the danger Gal presents when it comes to societal collapse is greater then the danger Ros presents to democracy. I do not think something as big a purge of more then 50% of our political powerbase would be something we would have no control over unless they happened during the coup. However, I do not think Ros would coup without more or less all of the military being on board and with factionalism being low, because that would be what is required for a coup not to devolve into civil war and, probably, societal collapse. Therefor, I do not think that this scenario you present would happen without us being involved heavily in the process.

to present my argument in a shorter format:

You previously made a compelling case for the idea that characters could do things behind our back. Well, I'm saying the risk is there and present. And I'm saying this threat to democracy is worth spending 3 resources, the cost of northern policing in the military.

A danger exists, I agree. I do not think this danger is greater then all the other ones we currently are under while playing as Gal. Therefor, I consider Mass Preparations being under the CSS more of a boon then a detriment, as the danger I think is greater is that of societal collapse. It seems we disagree there, and I don't think we can convince each other of that. I trust Ros more then you do, and I doubt I can convince you to agree with me there.
 
I don't want to take up two more pages with our arguments, so I will limit my response to the most salient points. I will not respond to any previous points.

Agency with choices:
These are not easy things to do, these are not quick actions to do. Slow boiling means it happens over several turns atleast, and that means actions happening under our direction. Which is the point I tried to make, that you seem to be taking them for granted, presenting a possible future while ignoring the fact that we would have a lot of control over said actions.
What this argument ignores is that the character determines the options we get, and we can only choose from them. If we only get options to consolidate an authoritarian regime (like government reforms which construct this regime, and if we don't pick one Ròs picks for us), our chances of stopping that are low. Not non-existent, but low. If the choice "Purge the adminstration comes up", we don't get to just say no. Assuming our agency can stop this decline is a dangerous assumption to make.

Risk assesment
A danger exists, I agree. I do not think this danger is greater then all the other ones we currently are under while playing as Gal. Therefor, I consider Mass Preparations being under the CSS more of a boon then a detriment, as the danger I think is greater is that of societal collapse. It seems we disagree there, and I don't think we can convince each other of that. I trust Ros more then you do, and I doubt I can convince you to agree with me there.
You are shifting the goalposts. My claim remains "preventing authoritarianism is worth spending 3 resources this turn" and your claim, actually societal collapse is worse, is a distraction. You have no evidence for Ròs regime being more stable. The conservatives would inherit the bulk of issues we are facing, which are not all due to Gal's policy. The best outcome is a transition to a democratic government, which requires the local councils to be free of surveillance and state violence. I consider the claim "empowering the secret police is a good thing because stability" to be nonsense.
We should work towards a democratic system, and this will cost us 3 resources this turn. An entirely justifiable expenditure, and let's not take the attitude of sacrificing democracy for the sake of the economy.
 
I'd like it that you don't accuse me of making a fallacy. I tried to present my thought process to you to help clear up where I think we were clashing in opinions, and it certainly does not feel good to be accused of bad faith. If this is what this has degraded to then I do not see any worth in continuing to talk about it.
 
[X] Plan Autonomy, Income and Education
-[X]Universalize
-[X]Educational Initiatives First (-3R temp)
-[X]Do Nothing (+1R perm)
-[X]Education for the Masses
-Governmental Actions
-- [X]Organization of Democratic Movements:
-- [X]Mobilization of the People:
-- [X]Development of Financial Assets
-Budget

--Committee of State Security: [] (1 R)
--Orbital Command: (1 R)
--Military: [//][] (4R)
--Ministry of Infrastructure [] (1R)
--Ministry of Development [][][] (3R)
--Ministry of Agriculture (0R)
--Ministry of Industry [/][][//][](7R - 5R = 2R)
--Ministry of Finance (0 R)
Total 12/12 (due to Educational Initiatives)

Income next turn: 18 = 19 (current) -2 (Northern Reconstruction) +1 (Do Nothing) - 3 (Collapse) +1 (Consolidate Units) -1 (Scrap Metal ) +1 (Heavy Industrial Construction) + 2 (Petrochemical Intensification)
potentially 19= 18 + 1 (private economy incentives)
 
Cannon Omake: Vox Populi
Vox Populi

Glendyl sat in her office, kneading her eyes as she tried to will the exhaustion away. 'Who thought that being a politician could be so tiring?' It was a good thing, she supposed, that she hadn't tried to become a comedian; even inside the safe space of her own mind she'd failed to find a receptive audience. And even worse, now she had reminded herself of her previous job as a school teacher, and the curriculum she had been working on before the bombs dropped, and, and...

Grasping her hands tightly to stop them from shaking so badly. She had new charges now, even if they were much older then her previous ones. They deserved her at her best, just as her previous ones had. There was no point in dwelling, not now, she had work to do. And speaking of work, someone knocked on her door. Quickly wiping at her face and clearing her throat, she yelled out "Come in!". Yes, work would be good for her right now. Her previous posting in one of the 'labour brigades' raised during the early months after the disastrous nuclear exchange. It had been back breaking work, unfortunately literally at times, but the physical exhaustion had at least helped keep her from dwelling too much.

Deasach opened the door, moving with the same urgency that everyone still alive had developed over the last couple years. "Councilor, a letter has arrived from you!" Glendyn winced a little at his loud voice. The poor man, if he could even be called that as he had barely turned 20 years old, had developed a significant hearing disability working at one of those awful factories, before she managed to snap him up and add him to her 'staff' as it were. Hopefully he'd recover from it eventually.

"Thank you Deasach, and as I told you before there's no need for the formality." She took the letter out of his hand and opened it. Absentmindedly she asked, "Who is it from?"

"I'm not sure", he admitted; "one of the guys working at the harbour handed it to me, telling me to give it to you. I asked why, but he just said that the captain of one of the supply ships had handed it to him and to get this letter to you." Glendyl frowned at that, reminded of the troubles she'd heard about from the northern regions. Her own worries grew as she read the letter. Her hands started to shake again as a horrible mix of fear, anger and clarity of purpose filled her mind. Those fools, how could they? They had promised things would be different, that there would be a better future for all, that somehow it'd all be worth it. And now they were doing this? Someone had to do something, and they would; she knew they would.

The thought only made her feel queasy, as she could easily imagine how the regime would react.

Deasach jolted her out of her own mind with a concerned "Councilor?", and she waved away his concerns, not trusting her own voice. Staring down at her desk while clutching at the letter, her mind churned on. After sitting like this for a minute or two, she finally opened her mouth and asked,

"Deasach, you didn't... accept any extra rations in-"

He cut her off, "To spy on you? Nah, I think someone tried to recruit me that way, not too long after you dragged me out of the factory. You feed me well enough though, so I figured I'd let someone else suckle on the teat of the CSS."

Amazingly, the question had somehow removed the worry on his face, replaced by a cheeky grin. Glendyl wanted to shake her head at him, reminded of all the times he'd been at her office all those years back. Even as a 4 year old he had been headstrong, which combined with his lack of filter had resulted in a lot of fistfights in the schoolyard that inevitably got him sent to her. She wanted to smile at the memory, and then she wanted to cry. She shook her head a little to clear it up.

"Good, good..." she let out a nervous giggle, "because they won't like what I'm about to do I imagine."

That wiped the grin of his face, replaced instead by a mask of determination.

"What do you need me to do?"

The bravery on display shocked her, the trust as well. Still, it only reinforced her own fears. Someone would do something, and... and they might go to far. Invite a crackdown. It'd all spiral, and it's not like there was any place to run here in Tir Na Nog, the centre of power for the regime. She couldn't stop people from do something though, that's not how that works. What she could do, perhaps, was to direct it. It would have to do, she'd have to thread the needle and hope to avoid the worst of the crackdowns. Or if it came down to it, perhaps they would only grab her. The thought filled her with fear, but it didn't matter.

Somebody had to do something, and that somebody would need to be her.

"I'll need you to deliver a couple of letters, I'll tell you afterwards as I'm still mulling over who I should involve in this. Then... you know people at the factory, right?" He nodded. "Then I'll need you to speak to them, ask around if they'd be willing to join in on a march on short notice." His face remained stoic, yet she still felt the need to explain herself. "We're just gonna get in view of the old foreign ministry building. No slogans, nothing big or anything." She felt the desire to slap herself over the head as she began babbling, but the words just started to stream out; "It's just... it's, they're... they're killing people out there! In the north! It's not right, it's not how it's supposed to be! The war's over, they said so themselves! How could they, how, how could-"

"Councilor, ma'am. It's fine. I'm in." Deasach gave her a small smile. "You don't need to worry about me. Also, I know some people who would be up for it. Hell, with the conditions at the factory I know a lot of people are pretty much just waiting for the opportunity to protest something. It sounds like you got a good cause lined up."

She nodded, and calmed her breathing. Grabbing her pen and some paper, for some absurd reason she felt a shot of vindication go through her mind as she'd always argued that writing was a skill that should be developed at school, no matter how much the new devices took over in the day to day life; and she started writing.

---

It was a day like any other, as the soldiers guarding the old foreign ministry building stood around, smoking and chatting with each other. That was until all their radios crackled to life at the same time, all of them receiving the same message. Something was up, and they had to prepare. Prepare for what? And then it was upon them. A person rounded the corner, a woman. Her back was stiff as a board, her hands clenched tightly and her face taut and pale. Despite this she marched forward with determination, each step following the other. Following behind her the rest came. 5 men abroad, the first line of people, men and women, held a banner. At this distance the soldiers couldn't make out what was written on it; "The War Is Over! Cease The Butchery!" One of the junior officers instead tried to count how many people there were. About fifty, or a reinforced platoon's worth. Not a threat, not immediately at least. Everyone gripped their rifles tighter as the group marched closer in silence, said silence broken by the sound of an IFV rushing on to the scene, more soldiers piling out of the back and... halting at the sight in front of them.

The group of unarmed civilians didn't react and kept marching closer and closer. Tensions grew, and the captain on scene tried to mentally prepare himself as he stepped forward to act- when suddenly the woman in front turned 90 degrees, now marching perpendicular to the old ministry building. The group followed in her footsteps, and the soldiers quietly watched the silent spectacle. In the end, nothing happened as they simply marched out of sight and dispersed, returning to their workplaces or barracks or wherever else they were headed. And tomorrow they came again, more people this time. Not a lot more, maybe a bit under a hundred. The guards were ready for them this time, and had turned out in more numbers. It didn't particularly matter, as things played out pretty much the same as they had yesterday. And so it went, as a slowly growing protest continued to march in front of the old foreign ministry building. Not every day, and only once per day, yet they kept at it. Production of the ever vital industrial goods wasn't affected, nothing was ever broken, not even any angry shouting took place.

It sent a message all the same.
 
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And as I said before, I frankly think we have to trust Ros's desire not to have things collapse. The long term issue of Ros is not gonna particularly matter because the current regime is, in my mind, doomed. Gal has fucked up enough that I don't think he has a chance of staying long term, and everyone else in our cabinet is tainted by association. The question of the CSS and the police will not be impacted in the way you seem to think by Ros, because she won't be charge of them for all that much longer.
I disagree with this part of your analysis. Ros is by far the most likely of our ministers to survive long term and escape taint-by-association for the good and simple reason that she's the one in the best position to respond to Galchobar's Last Mistake (TM) by sticking his head on a pole and hoisting it up in front of a roaring crowd.

At which point her own involvement in Galchobar's regime up to that point is quite likely to be forgotten if she plays her cards right.

Okay, stop. How are you still ignoring the piece in her bio that specifically states that she wants true democracy?
That's Galchobar talking, and as you have commendably analyzed and illustrated on other topics, Galchobar is kind of an idiot.

Remember that the descriptions of the ministers should also be read with Galchobar goggles in mind.

She can probably get the agreement of the conservatives to set up some authoritarian thingy that isn't democratic for some reason, despite wanting a true democracy, but everyone else is still there and they'd probably disagree quite violently if that were to happen.
Given full funding, it looks like Ros' idea of democracy would basically become a single-party "managed democracy" in which the faction in power (realistically including herself) has so many tools to neutralize "extremist" factions that disagree with them that the elections are nothing more than a formality. We can project this from looking at what her 'tech tree' of funded projects looks like.
 
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As I said before, I'm not interested in continuing this topic. Feel free to discuss it, but frankly I feel tired at having to repeatedly say that I recognize the points being made but have a different opinion, so don't expect me to respond further.
 
[X]Plan plugging the holes
Kind of performative as it's 7-1 but it's in a state I'm happy with now, long live the Ministry of Finance!
 
Something I also failed to point out before: Giving the local police to the CSS will not only be an issue in the event of Ròs coup. It will also cause immediate issues in the current regime. Gal so far has lacked the tools to purge "the oligarchs" (read: opposition) in local councils, but with the CSS close to every council, the action becomes suddenly a lot more viable.
 
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With the caveat that by "the oligarchs," we're not just talking about Space Elf Bezos here, but realistically about a fairly broad class of individuals that (much like "kulak" or "New People") is likely to grow wider as Galchobar's perception of the need to hunt them down evolves...
 
Vote Called for:
[X]Plan plugging the holes
-[X]Universalize
-[X]Begin Mass Preparations
-[X]Do Nothing (+1R perm)
-[X]Vocational Democratic Training
-Governmental Actions
--[X]Organization of Democratic Movements
--[X]Mobilization of the People
--[X]Development of Financial Assets
-Budget
--Committee of State Security: [] (1R)
--Orbital Command:[] (1R)
--Military: [//][] (4R)
--Ministry of Infrastructure [] (1R)
--Ministry of Development [][][] (3R)
--Ministry of Agriculture [/] (2R)
--Ministry of Industry [/][][//] (6R + 5R = 1R)
--Ministry of Finance [][] (2R)

Rolling 21 Dice
Blackstar threw 12 100-faced dice. Reason: Rolls Total: 667
12 12 34 34 98 98 13 13 26 26 62 62 96 96 89 89 66 66 58 58 61 61 52 52
Blackstar threw 9 100-faced dice. Reason: Rolls Total: 445
54 54 35 35 67 67 32 32 85 85 84 84 11 11 25 25 52 52
 
Those industry rolls came out really nice, and getting a 98 on doing nothing means kinda good things I think.
 
Roll average 52.95, I don't think we failed a single action. Looking up? Probably is, when the QM herself bust out a "hot damn you're gonna be loaded" in public.

Only concern is the low roll on universalizing the franchise.
 
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