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[X] Plan BFFs
I really want Jaime as the martial advisor, so voting for this one.
I really want Jaime as the martial advisor, so voting for this one.
The Three-Headed Dragon: A Viserys Targaryen Quest Continuation [abandoned]
- Thread starter Stardust&Scotch
- Start date
- Fantasy
Shapeless Phobos
Filthy Casual
[X] Plan New World Order:
-[ ] A substantial sum of gold and silver will be taken from each of the defeated Great Houses (+500,000 Dragons each)
-[ ] A significant amount of ships and material will be taken from each of the defeated Great Houses (Royal Fleet & Red Keep Garrison become Full Strength)
-[ ] Up to 3 belligerent lords/commanders will be sent to the Wall *
--[ ] Randyll Tarly
--[ ] Mandon Moore
--[ ] Osmund Kettleblack
-[ ] A highborn hostage will be sent to the Red Keep (Robert Arryn)
-[ ] Master of Laws (Diplomacy Advisor)
--[ ] Yohn Royce (Diplomacy 15)
-[ ] Master of Coin (Stewardship Advisor)
--[ ] Harry Strickland (Stewardship 17)
-[ ] Master of Whispers (Intrigue Advisor)
--[ ] Oberyn Martell (Intrigue 17)
- [ ] Grand Maester (Learning Advisor)
--[X] Jacaerys (unfortunately, you don't pick the Grand Maester)
-[ ] Hand of the King
--[ ] Eddard Stark
-[ ] Master of Ships
--[ ] Rodrik Harlaw (Martial 17)
-[ ] Lord Commander of the Kingsguard
--[X] Barristan Selmy (Martial 20) [Remember that you cannot easily dismiss a Kingsguard without their consent, because Joffrey/Cersei hasn't set the precedent. He was, however, technically a belligerent commander on the Crown's side...]
-[ ] the Master of War
--[ ] Stannis Baratheon (Martial 21)
-[ ] Lord Commander of the City Watch (not a Small Council position, but important nevertheless)
--[ ] Aegon Targaryen is a young and unproven man, but one of unquestionable loyalty. He was raised to lead armies and manage realms, so a watch and a city should theoretically be no great test of his abilities. You are quite certain that he's learned things from his time with Lord Stannis, though time will tell what it is he learned.
-[ ] Master-at-Arms of the Red Keep (not a Small Council seat, but a position of prestige and importance)
--[ ] Bonifer Hasty is a somewhat older knight of the Stormlands, who apparently was once close with your mother, and more recently did not involve himself in the war, except to protect smallfolk from predation from either side. Appointing him would be seen as a move of reconciliation towards Stormlanders not named Connington or Baratheon, would please the Faithful, and he'd possibly be someone to talk to about your mother.
-[ ] The King's Justice (not a Small Council seat, but a position of some prestige and dignity)
--[ ] Warrek of the Hills has lost one hand, but it doesn't take two to be an executioner and gaoler. You know him to not be corruptible or unnecessarily cruel, and those hold some appeal to you for this position.
The only other main difference between this Plan and Reform is who is Hand...and I don't really get putting Jaime in that slot. He's a poor diplomat, steward, and...basically everything else except being strong-willed and fighting. If we're going to have a Master of War anyways then him being Hand is kind of a waste. The Hand of the King needs to be able to get along with the rest of the Small Council, not just the King who isn't always there. Jaime is a good friend but a terrible people person, he's just too damn snarky for most people.
Let's just put him to the task of building up his perfect Kingsguard and reforming Knighthood itself. Hopefully that'll heal the depression.
I'm honestly glad the Tyrells were taken off the Master of Coin slot in the other Plan and hopefully we can dedicate some Diplomacy actions their way later. Same thing with giving Dany some Learning actions to iron out her natural Diplomatic skills. We don't have to solve every single issue we're facing now, we will have the rest of the Quest for them.
-[ ] A substantial sum of gold and silver will be taken from each of the defeated Great Houses (+500,000 Dragons each)
-[ ] A significant amount of ships and material will be taken from each of the defeated Great Houses (Royal Fleet & Red Keep Garrison become Full Strength)
-[ ] Up to 3 belligerent lords/commanders will be sent to the Wall *
--[ ] Randyll Tarly
--[ ] Mandon Moore
--[ ] Osmund Kettleblack
-[ ] A highborn hostage will be sent to the Red Keep (Robert Arryn)
-[ ] Master of Laws (Diplomacy Advisor)
--[ ] Yohn Royce (Diplomacy 15)
-[ ] Master of Coin (Stewardship Advisor)
--[ ] Harry Strickland (Stewardship 17)
-[ ] Master of Whispers (Intrigue Advisor)
--[ ] Oberyn Martell (Intrigue 17)
- [ ] Grand Maester (Learning Advisor)
--[X] Jacaerys (unfortunately, you don't pick the Grand Maester)
-[ ] Hand of the King
--[ ] Eddard Stark
-[ ] Master of Ships
--[ ] Rodrik Harlaw (Martial 17)
-[ ] Lord Commander of the Kingsguard
--[X] Barristan Selmy (Martial 20) [Remember that you cannot easily dismiss a Kingsguard without their consent, because Joffrey/Cersei hasn't set the precedent. He was, however, technically a belligerent commander on the Crown's side...]
-[ ] the Master of War
--[ ] Stannis Baratheon (Martial 21)
-[ ] Lord Commander of the City Watch (not a Small Council position, but important nevertheless)
--[ ] Aegon Targaryen is a young and unproven man, but one of unquestionable loyalty. He was raised to lead armies and manage realms, so a watch and a city should theoretically be no great test of his abilities. You are quite certain that he's learned things from his time with Lord Stannis, though time will tell what it is he learned.
-[ ] Master-at-Arms of the Red Keep (not a Small Council seat, but a position of prestige and importance)
--[ ] Bonifer Hasty is a somewhat older knight of the Stormlands, who apparently was once close with your mother, and more recently did not involve himself in the war, except to protect smallfolk from predation from either side. Appointing him would be seen as a move of reconciliation towards Stormlanders not named Connington or Baratheon, would please the Faithful, and he'd possibly be someone to talk to about your mother.
-[ ] The King's Justice (not a Small Council seat, but a position of some prestige and dignity)
--[ ] Warrek of the Hills has lost one hand, but it doesn't take two to be an executioner and gaoler. You know him to not be corruptible or unnecessarily cruel, and those hold some appeal to you for this position.
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Getting the Vale to at least Neutral Relations is probably the best we can hope for so long as Jon Arryn is alive. Taking in his heir as a Ward will keep him from doing anything too rash and hopefully keep him from Littlefinger's grasp. And putting a Valeman on the Council will be some good outreach there that will hopefully make up for sending their sole Kingsguard(Mandon Moore) to the Wall. I'm specifying Robert Arryn just in case Jon (or Lysa) get tricksy and try to send us Harry the Not-Quite-Heir...or some other Arryn cousin they don't give a damn about.The only other main difference between this Plan and Reform is who is Hand...and I don't really get putting Jaime in that slot. He's a poor diplomat, steward, and...basically everything else except being strong-willed and fighting. If we're going to have a Master of War anyways then him being Hand is kind of a waste. The Hand of the King needs to be able to get along with the rest of the Small Council, not just the King who isn't always there. Jaime is a good friend but a terrible people person, he's just too damn snarky for most people.
Let's just put him to the task of building up his perfect Kingsguard and reforming Knighthood itself. Hopefully that'll heal the depression.
I'm honestly glad the Tyrells were taken off the Master of Coin slot in the other Plan and hopefully we can dedicate some Diplomacy actions their way later. Same thing with giving Dany some Learning actions to iron out her natural Diplomatic skills. We don't have to solve every single issue we're facing now, we will have the rest of the Quest for them.
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@Elder Haman, maybe you should write your Argument to Ned on why he should train Dany in a way that makes it show up in the Tally, just in case.
@Marlowe310811 Is that needed?
I didn't because I thought it would clutter up the vote tally, but I can add it if you prefer it that way.
I don't know if it's needed. I just thought I should point it out, just in case it is.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Not really; I can figure out that people are voting for that when they vote for the plan.
You know, I just had a thought...
Samwell hasn't been sent to the Wall yet, yes?
So, if Tarly is sent there...he would become the New Lord of Horn Hill.
That would certainly be interesting. I always believed that Sam had what it takes to be a proper Lord. It's just that his Imbecile of a Father was too narrow-minded to see his true worth and merit, just because he wasn't the 'Best Fighter ever'.
Samwell hasn't been sent to the Wall yet, yes?
So, if Tarly is sent there...he would become the New Lord of Horn Hill.
That would certainly be interesting. I always believed that Sam had what it takes to be a proper Lord. It's just that his Imbecile of a Father was too narrow-minded to see his true worth and merit, just because he wasn't the 'Best Fighter ever'.
Interlude: The Proud Lord
- Pronouns
- She/Her
To Jaime, the solar of Casterly Rock felt like a poor fit for him. Like if he had tried to wear his brother's pants, or one of the Usurper's massive tunics – something he didn't remotely belong in, but here he was trying to force the issue all the same. I might just owe the king another punch in the jaw when I see him again, Jaime thought, for how much horseshit I have to deal with in this seat. On the other hand, he was beginning to feel a lot of sympathy for Viserys, given the seven or more large piles of horseshit he undoubtedly had to handle on any given day. And, really, Viserys didn't have much more choice in having the shit-handling thrust upon him than Jaime had.
But Viserys didn't have Tywin Lannister on his shoulder.
"Cedric Payne is looking for someone on whom to offload his cousin Podrick," Tywin noted from a scroll to Jaime's side. "He's been using the boy as a squire but finds him too great a burden for a knight of his lower incomes and stature, and hopes we might aid him." Tywin thought for a moment. "Gawen Westerling has a son approaching the age of knighthood, does he not?"
"You would know better than I, Father," Jaime said.
"You will need to remedy that, Jaime. As their liege lord, you should have at least passing knowledge of your bannermen's families and their pursuits," he lectured.
Jaime suppressed the urge to point out that he was working on it, along with a dozen other more important things. "And so I will." After a moment, "I do seem to remember a Westerling boy, barely a man, helping Lord Gawen at the Trident. I suppose that could be his son."
"If he's about to become a knight, he'll need a proper squire," Tywin said, leadingly.
Jaime chewed his cheek slightly, then made a small note. "I'll write to Lord Westerling, see if his son has filled the position."
"I advise you to be brief in any letter to Lord Gawen."
"Why is that?"
"The Westerlings are going to be a problem," Tywin remarked. "They very much want to offload their daughter onto someone, and since you've taken your rightful place, I suspect they have you in mind, though she's not an appropriate match. Any letters sent to them should be polite but noncommittal on anything. If they persist, you should begin to be more dismissive, until they receive the message. Subtle responses are often more useful than overt actions."
"Says the man who destroyed two noble houses," Jaime observed.
"A situation like that may arise, yes," Tywin sighed, "but it should not be done with the Westerlings unless absolutely necessary; they have been loyal bannermen these past forty years, they merely seem to need some...gentle reminders that they are bannermen, not peers. Don't take the wrong lesson from me, Jaime," Tywin continued, "such displays of force are not something to be made lightly. It is better to be feared than loved if you cannot have both, but if you must use fear, use it in a way that does not engender terror or hatred. Sometimes, all that is needed is a reminder of what you and your house are capable of, to put your bannermen in line. I needed to establish that fact for our bannermen and the Seven Kingdoms. You should not need to."
"I shouldn't?"
"I would hope not," Tywin said with what was approaching a warm smile. "You are my son, and besides that the most accomplished killer in the world." Jaime began to smile, but it quickly became a grimace that Tywin took no notice of as he went on. "Kings, khals, mad krakens all cannot stand against you. What hope would an uppity bannerman have? Even Mace Tyrell wouldn't be so great a fool as to directly challenge you, and thank the Seven none of our banners can hope to exceed him in that regard. Speaking of the Tyrells, has the king kept you informed of his negotiations with them?"
"He hasn't troubled me with it."
"He is extracting significant concessions from them," Tywin said approvingly. "And he seems to intend to put Paxter Redwyne on trial for his actions in the Narrow Sea. All of this will leave House Tyrell quite estranged from the Crown, and in a position with little to no influence on him. I think that is an opportunity we should exploit."
"While I may still be cross with him," Jaime said witheringly, "I don't think it would be possible to expand our influence on him or in his circle."
"I don't mean an opportunity with the king, though there's always room there," Tywin answered. "I meant with the Tyrells. You know our financial state now," and Jaime wisely refrained from mentioning precisely how long he'd known the main vein has gone dry, "you are known to be the king's closest ally ... and you are the most eligible unmarried man in Westeros. It wouldn't surprise me if Mace wrote to you within a fortnight trying to offer you his daughter's hand."
Jaime's face soured. "Margaery Tyrell is still a child."
"Whose father is a grasping and ambitious man, and now in dire straits in terms of royal influence," Tywin pointed out. "There's no telling what kind of dowry he might offer to try and worm his way back in. He could even try to wed the girl to the young prince, or get the princess married into his line, though I doubt even he hopes to succeed with such an offer." Then he added, "Of course, you could make such overtures as well, with more likelihood of success."
"Daenerys is also a child, Father," Jaime said, "one that I have happened to watch grow up."
"And who better could the king entrust her to?" It seemed to Jaime that Tywin had evidently given this considerable thought, which he then set out to prove. "And should any problems arise with the king's heirs, the one useful thing Robert Baratheon did with his life was legitimise male inheritance through the female line. Any children you and Daenerys Targaryen had would be potential heirs to the Iron Throne."
Restraining his urge to call out Tywin's callousness and calculated thinking, Jaime instead shaped lightly, "We're not even betrothed, and you're already planning to see grandchildren on the Iron Throne again?"
"I plan as far ahead as I'm able, Jaime. It's how I've kept this family intact, kept it thriving."
"Speaking of family, we should talk about the coronation," Jaime pivoted as he shuffled some papers.
"There's nothing to talk about," Tywin gave a small frown. "You will attend as a Warden, a Lord Paramount, and close ally of the king, despite your present estrangement," he added with a dismissive tone. "Your brother will accompany you as he is, for the moment, your heir presumptive," and the tone there made clear how long he expected that to remain the case. "And Kevan, if he can manage to extract himself from a wineskin long enough to remember his idiot son died in service to the last king, will go to demonstrate his loyalty to the new one. I will remain here and act as your castellan."
Jaime only just managed to bury his astonishment at hearing Kevan spoken of with more disapproval than Tyrion, and instead replied, "No, I would rather have you come with me. I want Kevan to remain here -- I still need him out of the wineskin, but he doesn't need that kind of pain, and I don't wish to force it on him. If I vouch for him, Viserys will take me at my word."
Tywin gave a wry smile. "It will never cease to amuse me how much trust a king places in a man who killed both his predecessors. Very well, if you can pull Kevan from his cups, he can stay and I will attend. Was that all?"
"Gerion will be there," he added blithely, without looking up, "and we should set aside our differences with him and his household, stand with them during the ceremony."
"He shouldn't be there at all," Tywin managed to force through gritted teeth. "He's a prodigal layabout, and a disgrace to the name he clings to."
"He's a Lannister. He may fly a different banner and keep to a different land, but he's one of us, and we need to act like it. We will need to be civil with Gerion and present a united front," Jaime said plainly, looking up from the papers.
"We are not a united front, and everyone present will know that," Tywin growled back. "Gerion removed himself from the family when he left here and rode North, and to pretend otherwise would make us look like fools."
Jaime didn't budge. "A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." He wore a smile that looked more like one of Tyrion's than one of his own. "I seem to remember hearing that a lot when I was growing up, does it suddenly no longer hold true?"
"Don't try to cleverly throw my own words back at me," Tywin scowled, "leave that to Tyrion, it's the rare field in which he exceeds you."
The smile faded, but the spirit of it remained. "He's had rather more time to practice the skill. How else am I to catch up?"
"The Lord of Casterly Rock doesn't deal in clever words or pointless conversations, Jaime, he deals in actions and commands."
"You're not the Lord of Casterly Rock anymore, Father. I am." Jaime's smile disappeared, and his voice hardened. "You will attend the coronation with me, you will smile at your brother and you will put your arm around him where people can see it, because every day there is an open rift in the family is another day that our house loses respect and the rift widens."
A shadow fell over Tywin's looks. "So you think the family as a whole is more important than the individuals within."
Jaime nodded. "Mother is dead," he said, and watched Tywin react ever-so-slightly to the unexpected twisting of the knife in his old and poorly-healed wounds, before sympathetically twisting a knife in his own matching wounds. "My sister and her children are dead. Before long, you'll be dead, and Uncle Gerion, and me and Tyrion and everyone who comes after us, all dead and rotting in the ground. The family name is what lives on. It's all that lives on. Not gold, not honour or glory, not our personal vendettas, not the estrangement between you and Gerion – the family."
For a long time, the only sound in the room was the crackle of the fire slowly consuming its feast of wood. It took what felt like an age for words to break the silence. "You've made your decision, then. Thought out your orders, planned your actions, and you won't be stopped or sidetracked," Tywin said, more as an observation than a question. Jaime still nodded to answer. Then, Tywin gave Jaime a small nod in return. "Good. You're starting to think like the head of House Lannister. Keep doing that, and they'll all follow your lead. As will I."
A noticeable weight lifted from Jaime's back. "There will be no further argument on this," he spoke, trying to match the 'observation, not a question' tone his father had used, with some apparent success.
"None," Tywin answered. "I've spent a long time seeing that the Lord of Casterly Rock's word is final and any who think otherwise get crushed beneath our feet. Far too long to go back on it now, just because I'm not that lord anymore."
Relieved to have that out of the way, Jaime looked down at his desk, and barely restrained a sigh. "Thank you."
Tywin asked, "Is there anything else you want me here for?"
"I do want to ask..." Jaime gathered his thoughts. "Leaving aside Daenerys for the moment, you really believe that marrying the Tyrell girl would be a good idea?"
"I think it would maintain our position and clout, and improve our financial futures," Tywin replied. "Whether or not letting Margaery Tyrell and her grandmother into our lives is a good idea is another matter, a secondary consideration. My first preference, if you cared to hear it, would be the princess -- closeness to the Targaryens and a dragonrider in Casterly Rock would mean that we were welded to the Iron Throne for generations, second only to the Royal Family." He poured both of them small glasses of wine, which Jaime took slowly as his father continued. "Fools think power is a ladder -- either you're climbing or falling, up or down, with no nuance or in-betweens. Power isn't a ladder: it's a wheel. Powerful families orbit around the Iron Throne like spokes on that wheel, sometimes up, sometimes down, but that doesn't matter. What matters is how close you are to that centre. Get close enough and win or lose, up or down, you hardly notice the difference." Tywin finished his small glass and set it aside. "You've gotten very close, my son. Stay as close as you can. If the girl isn't to your liking or she is intended for another, you'll still be close enough to the centre, that you may wed as well as you wish."
Jaime finished his own glass, but poured another as he noted, "When power is a wheel, we can only stay on top for so long. Close to power or not, that wheel never stops turning, Father."
"That only matters to people on the outside," Tywin said with a humourless grin. "And right now, the Tyrells are on the outside, and desperate to get back in before the wheel crushes them. You and the king would do well to discover just what price they're willing to pay to escape that fate."
Jaime sipped at his fresh glass, nodded. "I am glad to have your insights as I'm figuring this business out," and he was slightly surprised to find he meant it. "Perhaps this should become a tradition, so that lords aren't forced to sink or swim when they inherit."
"Perhaps," Tywin agreed, adding to Jaime's surprise. "I won't deny that I am ... glad, I suppose ... to be able to give you guidance and advice, rather than just hope you would do well in my absence. You might suggest this idea to the king, seeing as it has turned out to be rather more clever than I first thought."
"I may just."
Tywin nodded. "Then, if there's nothing else I can do for you tonight?" Jaime shook his head, to which Tywin said, "good night, my lord," and made his exit.
"Good night, Father," Jaime managed to get out before Tywin had left the room completely, leaving him alone with his silent qualms and unending scrolls of paper. Yep, I am definitely punching Viserys again.
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AN: Just a little peek into Lord Jaime's life in the Westerlands right now, while I leave the vote open for a few more days to see if there's any other discussion or votetakers.
But Viserys didn't have Tywin Lannister on his shoulder.
"Cedric Payne is looking for someone on whom to offload his cousin Podrick," Tywin noted from a scroll to Jaime's side. "He's been using the boy as a squire but finds him too great a burden for a knight of his lower incomes and stature, and hopes we might aid him." Tywin thought for a moment. "Gawen Westerling has a son approaching the age of knighthood, does he not?"
"You would know better than I, Father," Jaime said.
"You will need to remedy that, Jaime. As their liege lord, you should have at least passing knowledge of your bannermen's families and their pursuits," he lectured.
Jaime suppressed the urge to point out that he was working on it, along with a dozen other more important things. "And so I will." After a moment, "I do seem to remember a Westerling boy, barely a man, helping Lord Gawen at the Trident. I suppose that could be his son."
"If he's about to become a knight, he'll need a proper squire," Tywin said, leadingly.
Jaime chewed his cheek slightly, then made a small note. "I'll write to Lord Westerling, see if his son has filled the position."
"I advise you to be brief in any letter to Lord Gawen."
"Why is that?"
"The Westerlings are going to be a problem," Tywin remarked. "They very much want to offload their daughter onto someone, and since you've taken your rightful place, I suspect they have you in mind, though she's not an appropriate match. Any letters sent to them should be polite but noncommittal on anything. If they persist, you should begin to be more dismissive, until they receive the message. Subtle responses are often more useful than overt actions."
"Says the man who destroyed two noble houses," Jaime observed.
"A situation like that may arise, yes," Tywin sighed, "but it should not be done with the Westerlings unless absolutely necessary; they have been loyal bannermen these past forty years, they merely seem to need some...gentle reminders that they are bannermen, not peers. Don't take the wrong lesson from me, Jaime," Tywin continued, "such displays of force are not something to be made lightly. It is better to be feared than loved if you cannot have both, but if you must use fear, use it in a way that does not engender terror or hatred. Sometimes, all that is needed is a reminder of what you and your house are capable of, to put your bannermen in line. I needed to establish that fact for our bannermen and the Seven Kingdoms. You should not need to."
"I shouldn't?"
"I would hope not," Tywin said with what was approaching a warm smile. "You are my son, and besides that the most accomplished killer in the world." Jaime began to smile, but it quickly became a grimace that Tywin took no notice of as he went on. "Kings, khals, mad krakens all cannot stand against you. What hope would an uppity bannerman have? Even Mace Tyrell wouldn't be so great a fool as to directly challenge you, and thank the Seven none of our banners can hope to exceed him in that regard. Speaking of the Tyrells, has the king kept you informed of his negotiations with them?"
"He hasn't troubled me with it."
"He is extracting significant concessions from them," Tywin said approvingly. "And he seems to intend to put Paxter Redwyne on trial for his actions in the Narrow Sea. All of this will leave House Tyrell quite estranged from the Crown, and in a position with little to no influence on him. I think that is an opportunity we should exploit."
"While I may still be cross with him," Jaime said witheringly, "I don't think it would be possible to expand our influence on him or in his circle."
"I don't mean an opportunity with the king, though there's always room there," Tywin answered. "I meant with the Tyrells. You know our financial state now," and Jaime wisely refrained from mentioning precisely how long he'd known the main vein has gone dry, "you are known to be the king's closest ally ... and you are the most eligible unmarried man in Westeros. It wouldn't surprise me if Mace wrote to you within a fortnight trying to offer you his daughter's hand."
Jaime's face soured. "Margaery Tyrell is still a child."
"Whose father is a grasping and ambitious man, and now in dire straits in terms of royal influence," Tywin pointed out. "There's no telling what kind of dowry he might offer to try and worm his way back in. He could even try to wed the girl to the young prince, or get the princess married into his line, though I doubt even he hopes to succeed with such an offer." Then he added, "Of course, you could make such overtures as well, with more likelihood of success."
"Daenerys is also a child, Father," Jaime said, "one that I have happened to watch grow up."
"And who better could the king entrust her to?" It seemed to Jaime that Tywin had evidently given this considerable thought, which he then set out to prove. "And should any problems arise with the king's heirs, the one useful thing Robert Baratheon did with his life was legitimise male inheritance through the female line. Any children you and Daenerys Targaryen had would be potential heirs to the Iron Throne."
Restraining his urge to call out Tywin's callousness and calculated thinking, Jaime instead shaped lightly, "We're not even betrothed, and you're already planning to see grandchildren on the Iron Throne again?"
"I plan as far ahead as I'm able, Jaime. It's how I've kept this family intact, kept it thriving."
"Speaking of family, we should talk about the coronation," Jaime pivoted as he shuffled some papers.
"There's nothing to talk about," Tywin gave a small frown. "You will attend as a Warden, a Lord Paramount, and close ally of the king, despite your present estrangement," he added with a dismissive tone. "Your brother will accompany you as he is, for the moment, your heir presumptive," and the tone there made clear how long he expected that to remain the case. "And Kevan, if he can manage to extract himself from a wineskin long enough to remember his idiot son died in service to the last king, will go to demonstrate his loyalty to the new one. I will remain here and act as your castellan."
Jaime only just managed to bury his astonishment at hearing Kevan spoken of with more disapproval than Tyrion, and instead replied, "No, I would rather have you come with me. I want Kevan to remain here -- I still need him out of the wineskin, but he doesn't need that kind of pain, and I don't wish to force it on him. If I vouch for him, Viserys will take me at my word."
Tywin gave a wry smile. "It will never cease to amuse me how much trust a king places in a man who killed both his predecessors. Very well, if you can pull Kevan from his cups, he can stay and I will attend. Was that all?"
"Gerion will be there," he added blithely, without looking up, "and we should set aside our differences with him and his household, stand with them during the ceremony."
"He shouldn't be there at all," Tywin managed to force through gritted teeth. "He's a prodigal layabout, and a disgrace to the name he clings to."
"He's a Lannister. He may fly a different banner and keep to a different land, but he's one of us, and we need to act like it. We will need to be civil with Gerion and present a united front," Jaime said plainly, looking up from the papers.
"We are not a united front, and everyone present will know that," Tywin growled back. "Gerion removed himself from the family when he left here and rode North, and to pretend otherwise would make us look like fools."
Jaime didn't budge. "A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." He wore a smile that looked more like one of Tyrion's than one of his own. "I seem to remember hearing that a lot when I was growing up, does it suddenly no longer hold true?"
"Don't try to cleverly throw my own words back at me," Tywin scowled, "leave that to Tyrion, it's the rare field in which he exceeds you."
The smile faded, but the spirit of it remained. "He's had rather more time to practice the skill. How else am I to catch up?"
"The Lord of Casterly Rock doesn't deal in clever words or pointless conversations, Jaime, he deals in actions and commands."
"You're not the Lord of Casterly Rock anymore, Father. I am." Jaime's smile disappeared, and his voice hardened. "You will attend the coronation with me, you will smile at your brother and you will put your arm around him where people can see it, because every day there is an open rift in the family is another day that our house loses respect and the rift widens."
A shadow fell over Tywin's looks. "So you think the family as a whole is more important than the individuals within."
Jaime nodded. "Mother is dead," he said, and watched Tywin react ever-so-slightly to the unexpected twisting of the knife in his old and poorly-healed wounds, before sympathetically twisting a knife in his own matching wounds. "My sister and her children are dead. Before long, you'll be dead, and Uncle Gerion, and me and Tyrion and everyone who comes after us, all dead and rotting in the ground. The family name is what lives on. It's all that lives on. Not gold, not honour or glory, not our personal vendettas, not the estrangement between you and Gerion – the family."
For a long time, the only sound in the room was the crackle of the fire slowly consuming its feast of wood. It took what felt like an age for words to break the silence. "You've made your decision, then. Thought out your orders, planned your actions, and you won't be stopped or sidetracked," Tywin said, more as an observation than a question. Jaime still nodded to answer. Then, Tywin gave Jaime a small nod in return. "Good. You're starting to think like the head of House Lannister. Keep doing that, and they'll all follow your lead. As will I."
A noticeable weight lifted from Jaime's back. "There will be no further argument on this," he spoke, trying to match the 'observation, not a question' tone his father had used, with some apparent success.
"None," Tywin answered. "I've spent a long time seeing that the Lord of Casterly Rock's word is final and any who think otherwise get crushed beneath our feet. Far too long to go back on it now, just because I'm not that lord anymore."
Relieved to have that out of the way, Jaime looked down at his desk, and barely restrained a sigh. "Thank you."
Tywin asked, "Is there anything else you want me here for?"
"I do want to ask..." Jaime gathered his thoughts. "Leaving aside Daenerys for the moment, you really believe that marrying the Tyrell girl would be a good idea?"
"I think it would maintain our position and clout, and improve our financial futures," Tywin replied. "Whether or not letting Margaery Tyrell and her grandmother into our lives is a good idea is another matter, a secondary consideration. My first preference, if you cared to hear it, would be the princess -- closeness to the Targaryens and a dragonrider in Casterly Rock would mean that we were welded to the Iron Throne for generations, second only to the Royal Family." He poured both of them small glasses of wine, which Jaime took slowly as his father continued. "Fools think power is a ladder -- either you're climbing or falling, up or down, with no nuance or in-betweens. Power isn't a ladder: it's a wheel. Powerful families orbit around the Iron Throne like spokes on that wheel, sometimes up, sometimes down, but that doesn't matter. What matters is how close you are to that centre. Get close enough and win or lose, up or down, you hardly notice the difference." Tywin finished his small glass and set it aside. "You've gotten very close, my son. Stay as close as you can. If the girl isn't to your liking or she is intended for another, you'll still be close enough to the centre, that you may wed as well as you wish."
Jaime finished his own glass, but poured another as he noted, "When power is a wheel, we can only stay on top for so long. Close to power or not, that wheel never stops turning, Father."
"That only matters to people on the outside," Tywin said with a humourless grin. "And right now, the Tyrells are on the outside, and desperate to get back in before the wheel crushes them. You and the king would do well to discover just what price they're willing to pay to escape that fate."
Jaime sipped at his fresh glass, nodded. "I am glad to have your insights as I'm figuring this business out," and he was slightly surprised to find he meant it. "Perhaps this should become a tradition, so that lords aren't forced to sink or swim when they inherit."
"Perhaps," Tywin agreed, adding to Jaime's surprise. "I won't deny that I am ... glad, I suppose ... to be able to give you guidance and advice, rather than just hope you would do well in my absence. You might suggest this idea to the king, seeing as it has turned out to be rather more clever than I first thought."
"I may just."
Tywin nodded. "Then, if there's nothing else I can do for you tonight?" Jaime shook his head, to which Tywin said, "good night, my lord," and made his exit.
"Good night, Father," Jaime managed to get out before Tywin had left the room completely, leaving him alone with his silent qualms and unending scrolls of paper. Yep, I am definitely punching Viserys again.
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AN: Just a little peek into Lord Jaime's life in the Westerlands right now, while I leave the vote open for a few more days to see if there's any other discussion or votetakers.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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GODS THAT IS AN UPDATE!
Not the drivil of DAD... BUT TRUE CHARECTER!
And intriuge... and humor as well...
Magnificent ser, magnificent.
To be fair, Tywin, he DID save our ass multiple Times.
Also, great Update. Tywin is tywin'ing again, but that was to be expected.
As for the Marriages...funny that he mentions Margaery. I had thought about marrying her to Aegon. Especially now that we likely won't put any of the Tyrells on the Council. A Marriage with a royal Prince might help smooth things over.
And Dany...I kinda wanna have her and Robb marry. It would be a good match, I think they could get along well with each other and they are about the same Age too.
Of course, Issues like that are a bit further off to deal with yet.
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Magoose
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At least six times... and thats not counting the time we willingly put ourselves in danger because.... Reasons.
But there is also... Viserys needing to help the healing. The West is secured... but everywhere else... that's going to need some healing.
Yeah, her married to someone her own age instead of... well, any number of OTL marriages... would be nice.
Magoose
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The Witchcraft of someone who is a far better writer then the guy who wrote the prequel.
That and Tywin isn't a total ass thanks to Jaime sacrificing himself on the Alter of Tywin's Ego.
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Weirdly enough I could see Aegon and Margaery being a good match- she would prod him to make something of himself and he would keep her ambitions in check.
Interesting... is Jaime reconsidering becoming a Kingsguard again?
That might not be a bad idea. I mean, I wanted to make the Queen of Thorns our Master of Coin, and only didn't because the GM suggested pretty strongly that they wouldn't like it after being forced to give us 500,000 dragons. But I'm actually still thinking in the back of my mind that it might be doable in a few years. A betrothal of Margaery to Ageon might be a good way to make a connection, and then say... at the marriage we'd offer the Master of Coin position to Olenna? Not to mention, Magaery might have decent stewardship herself.
I tend to agree that Robb Stark might be the better match for Dany. He's close to her own age, will not be cruel to her. Plus it would be the fire and ice match that has be mentioned a few times, not to mention we are probably going to need a dragonrider in the North at some point.
Perhaps we might suggest to Lord Stark that he bring his son and heir to the Red Keep, and that we'd like him and Dany to be acquainted with each other. See if they are suitable for each other. If they do hit it off then we can propose a betrothal.
Also... looking at the previous quest, I don't think Lord Stark has ever told us that Jon Snow is actually our nephew... and Ageon's half-brother...
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We should probably find some land for Aegon. Maybe we can rebuild summerhall and give it to him?
That might not be the best idea. Summerhall was explicitly used by the royal family. We don't want there to be any question that there is more than 1 top dragon. It might be better to give him something that is totally new and he can put his own stamp on. Perhaps something in the Crownlands? Robert killed a bunch of them off, there might be some lands free. Or in the Reach, to keep an eye on the Tyrells for us. Or heck, I'm sure Doran could find a holdfast in Dorne for him somewhere.
Maybe once the royal family is more established and we have a couple sons. But right now he is our heir and we need to keep him close at the Red Keep.
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I mean, he is still being a bit horrible -- "this loser is gonna try and hitch his daughter to you. ghost him for a bit, and if that doesn't work, whistle Rains of Castamere until he takes a hint" is the fun kind of slightly-subtler dickery that Tywin definitely gets up to.
Honestly, though, I credit it to having a kind of breakthrough moment in the previous quest -- I used to write Tywin by gauging "can I hear Charles Dance saying this?" (and to be fair, I still use that metric to see if it sounds legit or not) but I clicked to how he thinks -- it's always about preserving the family, and his ability to preserve it. From the day he sees Genna carted off to the Freys, everything he does can be pretty clearly seen and understood through a lens of "preserve and protect my family", with absolutely no limits or morals or reservations. Ruthlessly murder the Reynes and Tarbecks? "Nobody fucks with people named Lannister anymore." Brutalise Tyrion's wife? "The Freys were the last to lay their grasping upstart hands on my family, no one else will while I live." Hitch Cersei to Robert? "My blood will sit on the throne, and my family will never be on the outside of the wheel again." Tywin is a guy with a fundamentally noble intention that goes to unconscionable extremes to achieve his ends.
So, to how he's not entirely horrible here. Tywin's doing what he does best, what he feels his role always should have been: giving advice and direction, and being listened to. He was made to be a steward, a guiding hand, and to be recognised and allowed to act that way, it makes a real difference with him.
Someday, when I'm more confident with the setting and the quest mechanics, I really want to try my hand at a Tywin Lannister quest, just to see what kinds of magnificent bastardy SV can get him up to.
I always find it funny that this is such a popular ship despite having zero canon interactions ... yet has more chemistry than Jon/Dany. Somehow.
Aegon is a member of the Royal Family, though, and will be until and unless he puts on a white or black cloak. Summerhall would be seen as acceptable, partly given his father's connection to the place, but also because Summerhall is merely associated with the Royal Family; Dragonstone is the one that says "heir apparent".
Just to throw it out there, though, Harrenhal is currently held by one lonely old lady with no real heirs.
To be clear, Jaime's mostly just humouring Tywin. It's performative, rather than serious questioning. However, he does appreciate hearing Tywin's reasoning and thinking, rather than just being given a "because I say so" tautology.
I guess I should explicitly spell out that, while Olenna would do it (as a shadow councillor for Mace, not out in the open) she would have been salty as fuck about it (like, make the Dead Sea taste like freshwater levels of salt) and she would likely be working at odds to you in some areas and definitely be running her own intrigue operations while in the capital. Taking her/the Tyrells onboard (in the context of the peace accords everyone so far seems to largely agree on) would drastically increase the odds that she was acting in the shadows against you/your purposes.
It's not a "no", it's a "be very careful what you wish for', with a side of "remember how big a booboo it was for Robb to fuck over the Freys and then attend a wedding in their castle like everything's fine? don't be like Robb"
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[X] Plan Reform The Realm with the Tyrells
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Yes, we deserve it. I mean, I loved the interlude; and I hope that we get to see more of the Lannister men. And now I'm wondering if Tyrion and Margaery could be a proper match, if their ages are close enough.
Robb and Dany share the burden of leadership, having idealistic ideas of how the world should work, can be frightenly competent in some areas and devastatingly bad in other and would propably either drive each other deeper into the well of madness or balance each other out.
Meanwhile, Dany/Jon in the series is mostly based on sex, and suffers from being developed in the shortened last season. I think Jon/Dany *could* work, but you'd need to time to let is blossom properly, not the least because of the *tons* of obstacles.
Funnily enough, the Reason I usually ship Jonerys is because I've read TONS of Fanfiction where their Relationship is incredibly well developed. I was honestly excited to see it in Canon.
And then, of course, Season 7 and 8 had to screw it up. As they did with almost everything.
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You might find this useful:
Short version is that there's a 10-year age difference: Tyrion is 24, Margaery 14. Mace might be somewhat more reluctant to offer Marg to Tyrion, though, given [gestures at Tyrion] and [gestures at Mace's puff-fish head]. And there are other obstacles at play, as well.
There, there; it's just a bad (and badly written) dream in this world, it can't hurt us here.