We know juuuust enough about the situation to be able to even talk about it a little, in that we have the verbs and nouns we'd need. But we don't understand any of those verbs and nouns well enough to understand the full significance of what we're talking about achieving.

So basically this is asking @Snowfire for spoilers. That seldom ends fruitfully. :p
Not exactly. Unison platforms interface with the soul, the Insight ... machine does so, too. That's a thing they have in common.
 
Yes, and that is all we know.

I'm not saying we will or won't be able to do it. I'm saying that we don't have a road map of what the technologies (including soul/Practice 'tech') will lead to, and we don't understand the underlying theory well enough to know what applications are or aren't possible.
 
Turn 20 - Mortality (Answer 6)
December 19th​, 2125

"Auntie?" You poked your head into the sitting room on the top floor of your mom's old home on Mars, looking around to where you knew Juno was sitting. The tall brunette looked up from the extended tablet in her hands with a smile at the sound of your voice, and slid the device closed with one hand whilst beckoning you into the room. It was one of your favourite places in the house, with a wide window looking out towards the rim of the ancient caldera that held Mytikas. There was a long couch stretched out opposite, making that view the centrepiece of the room, and several comfortable chairs scattered in a circle around it.

"Yes, Iris?" You liked Juno's voice. It was warm and calm, and quite detached in its own little way from the benevolent chaos that had engulfed the house. Mandy talked like that sometimes, but with Juno, it was always. She wasn't distant, but there was a distance in her own relationships, there even with her siblings. Harry had the same thing, in a way, their own scars from the Week of Sorrows. You had tried to imagine what that would be like once. You never would again.

"Um," you temporised, shaking free of the memory of that construct. "I was wondering if I could ask you about something. One of the take-home projects for next year was to examine how a facet of our society has changed, and I, I wanted to ask something a bit deeper than the suggestions." Juno looked at you for a moment, and you felt your toes clench with phantom tension.

"Something old, then, if you've come to me. Come and sit down," she patted the space on the couch beside her, waiting until you obliged before continuing with the question you'd expected. "What did you choose to ask, Iris?"

"Before," you fumbled for the words a moment, whilst Juno waited patiently and calmly for you to find them. "Before the Week of Sorrows, before the Secrets, human life was limited. I found a word when I looked it up, mortal – a Greek word which meant 'Doomed to Die'." Your aunt went very still. "I know you weren't alive then, that the Second Secret had already done much to change humanity before you were born, but," you stopped at the look on Juno's face. She'd gone very pale, so much so that her freckles stood out like harsh dots, but that was only because she understood.

"Auntie Vi belonged to our parents before she belonged to me," she finished for you. "And even though she's not…real," that word cost her something, "in the same way as you or I, her memories could show you far more than I could ever tell." Green eyes locked with yours, still as a millpond, and deeper than you'd ever seen them. It was almost, no it was intimidating, but you didn't look away. "Why is this so important to you, Iris?" she asked after a long moment.

"History, it, what we've lost," you looked away, staring unblinking out through the window at the light of the sunset. "What you lost," you corrected yourself, voice small, "that I never lived. Thousands of years when humanity had only decades of life, where you lived and died in figurative instants and yet did so much with that time. You built homes, forged nations, created beauty in so many ways that can still inspire people today. You've not stopped doing that even after more than half a century of knowing your lifespans are functionally infinite. It's carved into your memory, into your beings, in a way that I still don't understand. I've tried. So this," you shrugged, looking back from blazing gold light of the sun. "This is my trying another way to understand."

Juno nodded. "It's a lot you're asking," you held your breath, that was a pause, not a stop. "But you're family, Iris. And there's no reason for you to be barred from this." She extended the tablet again with a practiced flick of her wrist. "The only question is are you sure. Some of what Vi has in her memory isn't pleasant." You considered that, considered the fractured pain of the simulation you'd made for yourself once. This wouldn't be a simulation, this would be real. Real people, real loss.

"I have to try, Auntie," you told her finally. "I think that's part of what it means to be human." Bright green eyes softened in response, a touch of wistful sadness pulling a solemn line into a small smile.

"Oh Iris," Juno tapped a handful of keys, and you felt something nudge at the edge of your perception, a request from the Virtual Intelligence that Juno had used to allow her and her siblings to survive without the need for caretakers after the Week of Sorrows. You checked the connection, and then confirmed your request for a copy of its memory gestalt, focusing on the incoming stream of data. So focused that you almost missed your aunt's next words. "Mandy was so lucky to find you."

You started to reply, but the first memories from the gestalt hit you before you could. A human face, you could recognise some similarities to your mom and her siblings' features, lined strangely with age. They were smiling, clearly excited as they powered the interface unit on for the first time. There was a name given, recognition of a sort, but so much less than your own understanding of the term. You weren't given the time to process it further. More memories poured through you, the chronicle of almost a century of watching and catering to the needs of those the Virtual Intelligence was bound to. Glimpses of a humanity before the Secrets, then the change that came with the discovery of the First and Second of those mysterious things, decades compressed into an eyeblink. You experienced aspiration and hope second-hand, guessing on your own from the total lack of emotional context in the recordings. The workings of a race still uncertain in a much wider world, growing more secure as their understanding of it grew.

Then the break, the loss. The Week of Sorrows. You saw terror and fear, crushing grief. Only afterwards would you realise that you'd wilfully destroyed some of those recordings as they'd crossed your perceptions. Things you hadn't wished to see, or at least remember. Had that included your mom's last farewell to your grandmother? You didn't think you'd ever try and find out.

Recovery, fighting against bitter despair. The stories your mother had told you, witnessed without artifice. Hard memories, but as they moved forward, you saw the defiance overwhelm despair as it gave way to hope. And through it all, nine and a half decades of memories, you saw the same pattern. Change had come after humanity had discovered the Secrets, change in all aspects of their society, but there was…had truly so little changed?

People lived. They existed. They fought the seemingly inevitable, but now that wasn't time, it was the enemy that had taught them in a way no other lesson could that there were fates far worse than death. Humanity had always fought against what it felt it couldn't defeat, since before anything one could truly call 'humanity' had existed. With every generation, your mothers' ancestors had fought for more time, for the chance to do more with their lives. Millennia of progress, without even the dream of the Secrets, all to fight to a draw the most deadly enemy in human history; time.

But since its defeat, there hadn't been enough of it to actually change anything. Not truly. And the culture you knew was still deeply shaped by the possibility of death, just from another source. With the Shiplords an ever-present sword of Damocles above humanity, was it any surprise? For humanity to escape their mortality, you'd have to escape that. And the only way for that to happen…

You abruptly found yourself back in yourself, blinking away tears. Juno was crouched beside you, expression concerned as she held you up. You blinked again, and saw her expression relax slightly. Your obviously lying system clock informed you that only a few minutes had passed. That must have been a few decades, at least.

"Iris?" Juno said, and you realised belatedly that it was at least the sixth time she'd done so. "Are you alright?"

"I," you considered that word, how you could add to it, what you could use it to say. You made up your mind. "I think I'd like to go downstairs and hug my moms." You found your legs a little shaky when you rose, but Juno's supporting presence was there to stop you falling. "Would that be alright?"

"Of course."
 
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Yaaaaay I actually made it in less than a week! I think we can just call this entire turn one where there was copious amounts of navel gazing. I'd not planned for Iris to do this, but given how my characters are, I shouldn't really be surprised by her refusal to play along. That said, that's a big part of what makes this quest a breathing thing to me; the characters do what they want, not what I tell them. So in this, to clarify things, Iris asked Juno (Amanda's oldest sister) to let her see the memories of the Virtual Intelligence that had been in the Hawk family since the 2030s. Partially as a school project, and partially because Iris is still trying to work out parts of what it means to actually be human. She's getting there, but mortality and how it's affected our society is one of the bigger areas that she's still having trouble with. There's also the fact that, at its core, human society actually hasn't changed all that much in the really deep ways. There just hasn't been enough time, and there's still a potential doom lying in wait for the species.

For those who may have lost track, the Answer vote was won by the following question: In the past, humans were mortal - A Greek word that meant 'Doomed to Die'. Much of our culture was influenced and shaped by that one fact…which is no longer true. How has biological immortality changed humanity?

I think this should answer that question pretty fully. There have been changes on some levels, but in the much wider areas, not so much. Death is a bigger thing, sure, but it's still...present. And the threat of it is just as powerful as it was before the Second Secret took it away. Of course, this is being seen through Iris' point of view, so take that into account when you judge the answer's validity. Still, I hope it's satisfactory. News post will hopefully be up by the end of the week. Then Turn 21.
 
She's getting there, but mortality and how it's affected our society is one of the bigger areas that she's still having trouble with. There's also the fact that, at its core, human society actually hasn't changed all that much in the really deep ways. There just hasn't been enough time, and there's still a potential doom lying in wait for the species.
Yeah, come back in a couple of centuries, when culture has shifted to where having children before your age has hit three digits is considered radical and odd, and where you might be considered an adult at twenty-five but nobody expects you to have a job until you're at least fifty and can be trusted to be outside on your own.

The humanity of that time will look back at our era, where little children get married at thirty and forty, and young boys and girls become grandparents in their fifties and sixties, as strange and bizarre. :V
 
Turns out we were the real elves all along.
Eh, yes and no. I do expect the Asari-like approach to life, with young people working to build up a nest egg, then only having kids when they "retire" at 100-200-300 years old, to be more commonplace among the immortal humans, but because they're retired and are still as vigorous as twenty-somethings they'll tend to have larger families and more stable households because being married for four, five, six decades before having kids will be the norm.
 
Huh, wonder what we'd do when the Shiplords are removed as a threat. Just go around terraforming planets because we can, Star Trek Precursor style? Send people out on exploration missions, also Star Trek style. Huh, this humanity is actually a pretty good fit for Star Trek, in terms of ideals.
 
Huh, wonder what we'd do when the Shiplords are removed as a threat. Just go around terraforming planets because we can, Star Trek Precursor style? Send people out on exploration missions, also Star Trek style. Huh, this humanity is actually a pretty good fit for Star Trek, in terms of ideals.

After the Shiplords are defeated completely, which is within the bounds of the sequel to this quest, it's either Quest End... or we face off against whatever the Shiplords are working to keep down with their actions.

Possibly the Uninvolved, perhaps something else entirely, I have no idea.
 
...might I say that I just had a visceral realization of how much worse we could have done than Purify?
Practice is an expression of soul - I see some similarities to Dresden File's approch to mortal magic - you need to be convinced/want something to happen.
And now imagine what kind of person would speak 'Die' or 'Suffer'.
 
So @Snowfire Did we just cause massive character development of Iris effectively by accident?

And how is this likely to affect her going forwards? Will she share this insight with any 'child' AIs once we crack making them? So many questions...

But really, this did make Iris more 'human'. Even the destruction of some of the memories, and the prayer but never checking that she hadn't wiped out her grandmother and mother's last goodbye.
 
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Eh, yes and no. I do expect the Asari-like approach to life, with young people working to build up a nest egg, then only having kids when they "retire" at 100-200-300 years old, to be more commonplace among the immortal humans, but because they're retired and are still as vigorous as twenty-somethings they'll tend to have larger families and more stable households because being married for four, five, six decades before having kids will be the norm.
On the other hand, I can also see lots of people falling into a comfortable rut where each day they go to work and have a day much like yesterday. And then on the weekend they go out friends to do the same thing they always do.

But of course, all of that is actually unlikely due to the fact that we're about to hit a (mostly) post-scarcity singularity of automatic nanotech. So my real prediction is that most of the economy is about to become limited into three spheres: military, artistic, and social
 
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Practice is an expression of soul - I see some similarities to Dresden File's approch to mortal magic - you need to be convinced/want something to happen.
And now imagine what kind of person would speak 'Die' or 'Suffer'.
It's more than just that, too.
Shiplord said:
How dare you profane that gift and persist!
The Shiplords already seem to have a VERY nuanced view of mortality, both in the modern usage of the word and the original meaning.

We saw how they reacted to Purify. I really, really doubt their reaction to something like that would leave them willing to let us Understand.
 
Oh... My... God...

Guys. Go read the Shipload's speech, in either the Second Battle of Sol or Perils of Insight 4.

Go do it NOW.

@Snowfire .Did you mean to reveal this? Did you really? Or were you not expecting for it to come up? I mean, if it hadn't been for me wanting to reread the reactions of the ambassadors to the reveal of the Shipload's and going back to read that again... And thus catching just what the Shipload said and how that ties into Iris' revelations this answer update...
 
Oh... My... God...

Guys. Go read the Shipload's speech, in either the Second Battle of Sol or Perils of Insight 4.

Go do it NOW.

@Snowfire .Did you mean to reveal this? Did you really? Or were you not expecting for it to come up? I mean, if it hadn't been for me wanting to reread the reactions of the ambassadors to the reveal of the Shipload's and going back to read that again... And thus catching just what the Shipload said and how that ties into Iris' revelations this answer update...
...So...
The Shiplords are...Like a second coming of death, of war, of grief, of pain to a civilization that would otherwise consider all their problems 'solved'? Because if that's right then...What are the uninvolved then? Angels who were once mortals but found a way to answer even Time, and thus move on to the next realm?
 
...So...
The Shiplords are...Like a second coming of death, of war, of grief, of pain to a civilization that would otherwise consider all their problems 'solved'? Because if that's right then...What are the uninvolved then? Angels who were once mortals but found a way to answer even Time, and thus move on to the next realm?
I think it's more the Shiplords set themselves up as a 'replacement' death so no one stops progressing. Because if they stagnate or become too complacent, they die.

It also means that the galaxy never becomes 'full' as the old keeps either being cleared or ascends to make way for new species to rise.

Perhaps that's what the Galaxy was like when the Shiplords rose to the stars, and they saw that there's be no room for other species to also rise in the future... So decided that setting themselves up to permanently clear the deadwood was less monstrous than leaving the deadwood to choke the forest.

Perhaps there was even a massive war, aka 'forest fire' fed by all the deadwood using my metaphor, that so damaged the galaxy because there were all these great and powerful but stagnant nations controlling the galaxy that got involved/pulled in which caused the Shiplords to go 'Never Again'. Lest there no longer be a galaxy...
 
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Perhaps there was even a massive war, aka 'forest fire' fed by all the deadwood using my metaphor, that so damaged the galaxy because there were all these great and powerful but stagnant nations controlling the galaxy that got involved/pulled in which caused the Shiplords to go 'Never Again'. Lest there no longer be a galaxy...
"There was too much death, so we made sure death will never end."

If I have one berserk button, it's people being so unimaginative that they think death can somehow be a net good.
 
Sorry, but I would have to call bullshit on that. As I said before, I don't care if the Shiplords THINK they're doing something good.

They are not. And they threaten us and others. So they have to go.
 
"There was too much death, so we made sure death will never end."

If I have one berserk button, it's people being so unimaginative that they think death can somehow be a net good.

Sorry, but I would have to call bullshit on that. As I said before, I don't care if the Shiplords THINK they're doing something good.

They are not. And they threaten us and others. So they have to go.

Note that I said that the Shiplords might have thought this set up less monstrous than just leaving things be. Not kind, or good or even evil. Monstrous. Because they know they're setting themselves up to be the galaxy's nightmare. And that can never be done in a way that isn't monstrous somehow...
 
Note that I said that the Shiplords might have thought this set up less monstrous than just leaving things be. Not kind, or good or even evil. Monstrous. Because they know they're setting themselves up to be the galaxy's nightmare. And that can never be done in a way that isn't monstrous somehow...
And genociding people or cheating in the tests helps in achieving this goal - how?
 
Note that I said that the Shiplords might have thought this set up less monstrous than just leaving things be. Not kind, or good or even evil. Monstrous. Because they know they're setting themselves up to be the galaxy's nightmare. And that can never be done in a way that isn't monstrous somehow...

And I responded.

I don't care.

Fuck that idea, in universe and out of.
 
And genociding people or cheating in the tests helps in achieving this goal - how?

Just throwing possibilities out there, though when do the Shiplords cheat with their tests? I'm pretty sure they just don't accept 'Oops, all our weapons are perfectly countered by your defences' or 'you got attention from a scarier predator than you expected' as valid excuses for why they should be spared...

Or in simpler terms, they may be acting as 'Natural Selection' on a civilisation/starfaring species scale. And we all know evolution is a cruel mistress. Why? I honestly can't really say... Other than it looks like they think it's a better course of actions than not acting so monstrously.
 
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