To be fair, they're in a quasi-military unit. The environment and sense of duty probably isn't conducive for becoming a parent. Not to mention they were preparing to fight the Tribute Fleet. Not many people would put starting a family over ensuring they were in top condition for the fight to protect Humanity.

Edit: ninja'd

World War 2. Military Forces. Viatnam, various other wars in history.

Admittedly I'm talking about them having kids with non-combatants, but still. And birth control is a thing. But yea... 6 people out of all them them having kids seems low, because they're the ace pilots of the new military. The Rock Stars. Girls should be throwing themselves at the single men, and there should be lots of little babies out there, out of wedlock.

Somehow I don't see universal birth control with every woman being a thing in society, even this one.




Sorry, I'm an army brat. I grew up around all those people during several wars. ....well, don't know if one was a 'war' but still.

6 women in the military had kids. That I can accept and will drop the issue.
 
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World War 2. Military Forces. Viatnam, various other wars in history.

Admittedly I'm talking about them having kids with non-combatants, but still. And birth control is a thing. But yea... 6 people out of all them them having kids seems low, because they're the ace pilots of the new military. The Rock Stars. Girls should be throwing themselves at the single men, and there should be lots of little babies out there, out of wedlock.

Somehow I don't see universal birth control with every woman being a thing in society, even this one.




Sorry, I'm an army brat. I grew up around all those people during several wars. ....well, don't know if one was a 'war' but still.

6 women in the military had kids. That I can accept and will drop the issue.

As clarified in Discord: I said six have had children. I never said how many kids there were. I also may have only been referring to mothers.
 
Somehow I don't see universal birth control with every woman being a thing in society, even this one.
Given that humanity's population increased 10x in only two generations, birth control is probably either illegal or heavily frowned upon, which, thanks to the wide-scale Practiced societal changes means it's effectively rare and vanishing. In fact I'd be shocked if there weren't some kind of organized breeding program going on, in order to get population to jump that quickly in so short a time.

I'd even take that a step further and wonder why Amanda and Mary haven't been required to have kids themselves by now, or have they instead donated eggs for someone else to implant and raise? Eugenics may be a hot-button issue in the current age, but 1) this isn't the kind of eugenics that forces people who "aren't fit" to be sterilized, merely to encourage people with desirable traits to have more children, and 2) Potential-ness may or may not have a genetic component, but at the very least Mary's genius (and her security clearance) is clearly something worth passing on to a several dozen kids, should it prove to breed true.
 
@Snowfire so the mention about Iris having friends in the last update got me a bit curious. How is Iris social life outside her direct family? I got the impression that she was home schooled and we have not really heard anything about play dates with say circle people.
 
Given that humanity's population increased 10x in only two generations, birth control is probably either illegal or heavily frowned upon, which, thanks to the wide-scale Practiced societal changes means it's effectively rare and vanishing. In fact I'd be shocked if there weren't some kind of organized breeding program going on, in order to get population to jump that quickly in so short a time.

I'd even take that a step further and wonder why Amanda and Mary haven't been required to have kids themselves by now, or have they instead donated eggs for someone else to implant and raise? Eugenics may be a hot-button issue in the current age, but 1) this isn't the kind of eugenics that forces people who "aren't fit" to be sterilized, merely to encourage people with desirable traits to have more children, and 2) Potential-ness may or may not have a genetic component, but at the very least Mary's genius (and her security clearance) is clearly something worth passing on to a several dozen kids, should it prove to breed true.

Eyes, I've been over these numbers with you once already. It wasn't 10x in two generations, it was more like 3.5x, and with a near-total lack of deaths.

Um...the Shiplords left behind 3 billion. So your estimates are wrong just from that. Add in the fact that the death rate per year is basically nonexistent, and the premise falls apart even further. However, let's math this a little.

So. Population growth really started about five years after the Week of Sorrows, as the older children left behind started to have their own. Consider here that the world at this point believed that the Week of Sorrows was a one time event. Humanity didn't expect to meet the Shiplords again for centuries. Children were, for the most part, considered a safe thing to have. Now, this data is pulling from wikipedia, and is slightly dated, but I'm going to use what I have. In 2009, the CIA World Factbook gave the annual birth and mortality rates as 1.86% and 0.78% respectively. These are low, population growth has been dropping since the 1970s. The percentage growth rate (birthrate-mortality) at that time was 2.1-2.2%.

Take into account now, that the only cause of deaths for Post-Sorrows humanity is outside action. Accidents can kill you, but it's unlikely. The Elder First died because Prologue wouldn't take. A few other First Awoken have gone the same way, but we're talking low double digit figures at most.

So. 1.1% growth rate today. 2.2% in the 70s. For the sake of fairness, we'll average this. 1.65%.

Then we have to add the mortality rate back on to the growth rate, because as has already been said, people don't die. Which leaves our annual growth figures at...2.43%. But this runs into problems again, because the society that humanity has is one where biological age isn't a factor where it comes to reproduction. Amanda is in her late 60s. Her youngest sister is 59. She can still have children. I honestly I have no fucking clue how badly this would affect these figures, but the simplest way to model it I can think of is that the next generation of children add on their growth rate to the previous one instead of continuing a trend. Given that some people wouldn't want vast families, we'll add on half the percentage instead of flat doubling it. We'll do this about thirty years in. I could probably do it as early as 25.

Thirty years at 2.43% from a starting point of 3 billion leaves us at...6,165,047,630. Then we chart the next fifteen years at a growth rate of 3.645%.

Which leaves humanity, at the time of the Second Battle of Sol, with a world population of 10,547,797,279.

No legal requirement necessary. And the growth figures may well be low, as the socio-economic barriers to having children don't exist anymore.

Just...no.
 
Asimov had plenty of good ideas, but the science fiction he wrote wasn't particularly hard. He made no real attempt at working within the limitations of physics, and so his stories do not say much about what should be possible for real.

:rofl::lol:rofl: Given that the man invented the word "robotics" and was one of the primary examples of a "hard" sci-fi author for around 40 years I find this statement terribly amusing.
 
:rofl::lol:rofl: Given that the man invented the word "robotics" and was one of the primary examples of a "hard" sci-fi author for around 40 years I find this statement terribly amusing.
Different ways of using the term "hard". He laid down rules for his universe and generally applied them consistently and rigorously (at least after he got it all hammered out), so from that perspective he was one of the most well-known examples of the sort.

By a different definition, though, Asimov never worried too much about whether his creations were realistically achievable in the real world. You couldn't really even point to a single conceit of the setting and say "this is the place where it breaks from physics but everything else should follow". But his stories also weren't ABOUT exploring that. So he didn't really fit into the GENRE that nowadays we call "hard SF".
 
Given that humanity's population increased 10x in only two generations, birth control is probably either illegal or heavily frowned upon, which, thanks to the wide-scale Practiced societal changes means it's effectively rare and vanishing. In fact I'd be shocked if there weren't some kind of organized breeding program going on, in order to get population to jump that quickly in so short a time.
Actually, I would be surprised if elective fertility (probably with a default setting of 'off' until after puberty) wasn't part of the "Humanity 2.0" project, or Prologue. Granted, there likely was also a bit of social engineering towards having kids, but making having children an entirely conscious choice seems like a good idea for making life easier for everyone.
 
Eyes, I've been over these numbers with you once already. It wasn't 10x in two generations, it was more like 3.5x, and with a near-total lack of deaths.

Just...no.
Ugh, you're right. For some reason I keep thinking the post-Sorrows population was down to one billion rather than three, and this is the second time I've had to be corrected on that. Sorry; I don't know where my head is on this.
 
....You know....it could explain why the Shiplords hated Amanda for using something like Purify....

From their PoV, it was like a child got hold of a planet busting bomb from the Vorlons or Shadows and used it to settle a playground dispute.

They probably see 'Beings that embody/enforce Concepts' (or something) as 'those who are responsible for the underpinnings of the universe and thus have a high level of responsibility and responsible to keep the whole thing running, while showing impartiality to all races'....or something close.
 
....You know....it could explain why the Shiplords hated Amanda for using something like Purify....

From their PoV, it was like a child got hold of a planet busting bomb from the Vorlons or Shadows and used it to settle a playground dispute.

They probably see 'Beings that embody/enforce Concepts' (or something) as 'those who are responsible for the underpinnings of the universe and thus have a high level of responsibility and responsible to keep the whole thing running, while showing impartiality to all races'....or something close.
That would explain hatred, but not so much the ensuing pity after we went with Understand. I'm not sure what does explain that, except that it worries me.
 
From what I gathered, Understand went both ways. They understood us for a moment as well, and felt pity.

I still wonder if it's the path to being Uninvolved, and they were sad that we'd already started down it so damn early in our development.
 
But his stories also weren't ABOUT exploring that. So he didn't really fit into the GENRE that nowadays we call "hard SF".

The continual attempt to redefine the 'Hard' in Science Fiction is a large part of what I found amusing. You may say Asimov no longer fits within the current GENRE of "hard sci-fi", but I do not, but some others do, and some other people don't.

Does the "Hard" label even mean anything or have any value if its contents are eternally shifting when science progresses or someone just wants to limit the term to physics or just pure math? What if some math themed fantasy writer accidentally defines the Unified Field Theory in a novel that is a blatantly a farce. Does it suddenly becomes Hard SciFi? (Frick, I would totally read that story if someone wrote it.)

When Lovecraft got published in an early sci-fi magazine they nearly got boycotted because it wasn't sciency enough for their audience. But even then he was an accepted part of the mythos for the less rigorous crowd. Are we doomed to have this hard/soft sci-fi debate every damn generation till the end of time?
 
Are we doomed to have this hard/soft sci-fi debate every damn generation till the end of time?
I'd say we are. Furthermore, I'd posit that this is, in fact, a good thing, and gets to the core of what sci-fi and fantasy are all about.

I've got a lot I want to say about this, but there's no way I'm typing it all up on a phone. For now, I'll just say that, best I can tell, the hard vs soft debate is really just a proxy fight between the war between modernism and postmodernism, and it's both useful and interesting for it to be there.

But, and this is important, it's critical that we don't let disagreements between different points of view taint or divide. I know I've struggled with that kind of thinking, even in this very thread. This is an important struggle to have, however, and in fact is, again in my opinion, one of the reasons that an endless debate over hard vs soft sci-fi makes me hopeful rather than despair.
 
I'd say we are. Furthermore, I'd posit that this is, in fact, a good thing, and gets to the core of what sci-fi and fantasy are all about.
This gets a big +1 from me.

Discussing the shifting definition is exactly HOW you understand what it is. It lets you understand not only what the term means and how it evolved, but how the community's views have shifted over time -- language exists only in service of ideas, after all. The discussion ends with everyone having a better understanding than they had when they came in, even if they don't come out agreeing on the answer.
 
Especially more so when you get into Quantum Physics, which says stuff like 'Black Holes store Information which they broadcast across multiple universes'.

Viola! Type III races can now upload themselves onto Black Holes in order to become holograms that can now perform parallel universe travel.

.....Have I mentioned how cray-cray top end fringe science can get?

The continual attempt to redefine the 'Hard' in Science Fiction is a large part of what I found amusing. You may say Asimov no longer fits within the current GENRE of "hard sci-fi", but I do not, but some others do, and some other people don't.

Does the "Hard" label even mean anything or have any value if its contents are eternally shifting when science progresses or someone just wants to limit the term to physics or just pure math? What if some math themed fantasy writer accidentally defines the Unified Field Theory in a novel that is a blatantly a farce. Does it suddenly becomes Hard SciFi? (Frick, I would totally read that story if someone wrote it.)

When Lovecraft got published in an early sci-fi magazine they nearly got boycotted because it wasn't sciency enough for their audience. But even then he was an accepted part of the mythos for the less rigorous crowd. Are we doomed to have this hard/soft sci-fi debate every damn generation till the end of time?

That's because Lovecraft borrowed notes from his friends who did meta-biology and meta-physics, which were thought experiments in multi-dimensional beings surpassing our own 3 dimensional aspect and trying to understand what the fourth dimension would look like from our point of view.

He based his stories on not just what they told him, but also based on 'the fear of the unknown' and 'are we going too far with science?'

Problem was, is that he writing these when meta-physics and meta-biology were considered 'crack pot science' and proper scientists shouldn't back down from anything.

....It's also one of the things that's different in Neon Genesis Evangelion - Metaphysical Biology was an accepted field of science, which eventually led to man made gods.

From what I gathered, Understand went both ways. They understood us for a moment as well, and felt pity.

I still wonder if it's the path to being Uninvolved, and they were sad that we'd already started down it so damn early in our development.

It's possible.

Amanda cranked out an attack on par with the total output of our Sun for one second.

That's the kind of thing you would expect from a member of Type III race, not a member of a Type II (barely) race.

So it might be that they thought that Amanda is a 'highly evolved being surrounded by monkeys' and felt pity for her because she was alone....
 
Okay, finally behind a keyboard so I can reply in (slightly) more detail, though frankly you can write whole books on this subject.

Speculative fiction in general, and sci-fi in particular, is at its core about discovery and change. When you peel back the layers of tropes and gee-whiz flashy bits (like blue-skinned alien women or giant robots), the core is about exploring and discussing ideas that, for various reasons, can't be properly discussed and explored in any other format.

What does it mean to be human in a world with sapient machines? What is the dividing line between human and non-human in a world where cybernetics can replace 80, 90, 99, 100% of the biology with metal or data? Do connections with other humans even matter in a world where there are a thousand AIs or aliens for every human? How would humanity adapt to a world where the laws of physics are so very different than our own; would they even be able to be considered human in the first place? These are fascinating questions to ponder, and potentially critical given the speed at which technology has been advancing lately, and speculative fiction is a great vehicle for that.

The hard/soft SF divide, if there even is a true divide and it's not more like the Kinsey scale, is a natural outgrowth of the sheer diversity of questions that can be asked under this umbrella. What's interesting is that, as @Coda said above, what is considered "hard" and what "soft" is itself changing as time goes on: as general scientific knowledge increases, the expectations of how much scientific rigor is required to be considered "hard" also increases. Asimov tried to be a hard sci-fi writer in the first half of the century, but it really wouldn't have occurred to him to get the kind of physics help that, for example, Carl Sagan did to put together his system of traversable wormholes for Contact.

Hm, I had more to say about this, but really this is already getting far off-topic. I think for the purposes of this thread the statement I made in the previous post is the most important: these kinds of debates are in many ways the core of what sci-fi and speculative fiction are about, as they let us explore ideas that are either too abstract, too politically charged, or otherwise unavailable to be discussed outside of fiction, but it's important to keep an open mind and respect people even when they disagree, perhaps especially if they disagree.
Amanda cranked out an attack on par with the total output of our Sun for one second.

That's the kind of thing you would expect from a member of Type III race, not a member of a Type II (barely) race.

So it might be that they thought that Amanda is a 'highly evolved being surrounded by monkeys' and felt pity for her because she was alone....
Huh, and here I thought the Shiplords' rage was because they thought they recognized their great enemy, the one they actually built all those War Fleets and the like to fight, then felt pity for Humanity when they realized that we were still a bunch of ignorant monkeys who accidentally learned how to make a steam engine out of twigs.
 
Well thankfully in setting we're in a world where there's only 2 true sapient machines, and we treat them as Human...ish in Vision's case but still Human.

Even the Platforms seem to be leaching their sapience from the person they're bound with, so that's kinda a question mark there.
 
Okay, finally behind a keyboard so I can reply in (slightly) more detail, though frankly you can write whole books on this subject.

Speculative fiction in general, and sci-fi in particular, is at its core about discovery and change. When you peel back the layers of tropes and gee-whiz flashy bits (like blue-skinned alien women or giant robots), the core is about exploring and discussing ideas that, for various reasons, can't be properly discussed and explored in any other format.

What does it mean to be human in a world with sapient machines? What is the dividing line between human and non-human in a world where cybernetics can replace 80, 90, 99, 100% of the biology with metal or data? Do connections with other humans even matter in a world where there are a thousand AIs or aliens for every human? How would humanity adapt to a world where the laws of physics are so very different than our own; would they even be able to be considered human in the first place? These are fascinating questions to ponder, and potentially critical given the speed at which technology has been advancing lately, and speculative fiction is a great vehicle for that.

The hard/soft SF divide, if there even is a true divide and it's not more like the Kinsey scale, is a natural outgrowth of the sheer diversity of questions that can be asked under this umbrella. What's interesting is that, as @Coda said above, what is considered "hard" and what "soft" is itself changing as time goes on: as general scientific knowledge increases, the expectations of how much scientific rigor is required to be considered "hard" also increases. Asimov tried to be a hard sci-fi writer in the first half of the century, but it really wouldn't have occurred to him to get the kind of physics help that, for example, Carl Sagan did to put together his system of traversable wormholes for Contact.

Hm, I had more to say about this, but really this is already getting far off-topic. I think for the purposes of this thread the statement I made in the previous post is the most important: these kinds of debates are in many ways the core of what sci-fi and speculative fiction are about, as they let us explore ideas that are either too abstract, too politically charged, or otherwise unavailable to be discussed outside of fiction, but it's important to keep an open mind and respect people even when they disagree, perhaps especially if they disagree.

Huh, and here I thought the Shiplords' rage was because they thought they recognized their great enemy, the one they actually built all those War Fleets and the like to fight, then felt pity for Humanity when they realized that we were still a bunch of ignorant monkeys who accidentally learned how to make a steam engine out of twigs.

What you have to remember is, that as civilization advances, there is the expectation that the amount of potential energy available to each member of their race goes up.

For an instance, in the Middle Ages, a farmer would have himself, a horse and a plow.

Modern day farmer has a tractor, bags of ammonia nitrate and can make Brown Powder out of saltpeter, sugar and charcoal.

That's from a race which is around Type 0.7.

Reaching Type I fully probably isn't going to change much due to it spread out among seven billion people.

Now, a full fledged Type II civ might have micro fusion reactors for everyone.

So, what happens when you hit Type III, where Dyson Swarms are supposed to be common place and there are billions of suns and few dozen/hundred Quazars and Black Holes to choose from for your entire race of a few billion or so?

Let's admit it, the whole 'planet is going to get overpopulated' is kinda a myth, considering that the First World Countries tend to suffer low birth rates.....
 
Let's admit it, the whole 'planet is going to get overpopulated' is kinda a myth, considering that the First World Countries tend to suffer low birth rates.....

Less a Myth and more a hold-over from when the science suggested that it would happen, back when the First World had birth rates that the 3rd world still has. Noone knew that people would STOP having so many kids when things got so much better, because it was ingrained into their mindset of the time.

And that silly idea's stuck around in stories.


The Practice War world is still maybe a generation from them sliding back into having fewer kids - it took 2 generations for that to happen in our world. Plus since noone ever gets old like before, those people who grew up wanting and needing lots of kids in response to so many people dying... can still have kids for decades.

So we're in completely uncharted space here.
 
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Less a Myth and more a hold-over from when the science suggested that it would happen, back when the First World had birth rates that the 3rd world still has. Noone knew that people would STOP having so many kids when things got so much better, because it was ingrained into their mindset of the time.
It's not even entirely a myth. The Earth's population is going to hit at least 10 billion, and there's no way to stop it, because even though the first-world countries are down to population-stable (or, in China, even population-decreasing) levels, third-world countries are getting improved life expectancies and reduced infant mortality while still sustaining the same birth rates. Even if Africa went to two-children-per-family right this minute I don't think it would stabilize below 9 billion.
 
But the iconic image of overpopulation from the movie Soylant Green, will never come to pass.

As even TODAY, with 7 billion people, we could fit everyone onto New York Island and not be at the level of population density that movie showed.

10 billion isn't a crisis in population - except for food transportation. We still have issues today even if we're overproducing food. It's just not getting where it needs to go.




....now when environmental migration happens due to changes in the world. That might get messy.
 
It's not even entirely a myth. The Earth's population is going to hit at least 10 billion, and there's no way to stop it, because even though the first-world countries are down to population-stable (or, in China, even population-decreasing) levels, third-world countries are getting improved life expectancies and reduced infant mortality while still sustaining the same birth rates. Even if Africa went to two-children-per-family right this minute I don't think it would stabilize below 9 billion.

The larger point in this discussion though is that @Baughn has pointed out in Discord that with current PW level technology Earth could probably support a population of around a trillion, assuming current settlement patterns. And you also have an entire other planet that's partially colonisable, with full colonisation possible once the steering gears of EarthGov decide to extend the breathable area.
 
The larger point in this discussion though is that @Baughn has pointed out in Discord that with current PW level technology Earth could probably support a population of around a trillion, assuming current settlement patterns. And you also have an entire other planet that's partially colonisable, with full colonisation possible once the steering gears of EarthGov decide to extend the breathable area.
Yup; the real problems with overcrowding are food production and environmental issues, which come down to issues of chemistry: in other words, production of nitrates and phosphates for fertilizer, and scrubbing of CO2 and other pollutants from the atmosphere for the environment. Ultimately the problem boils down to energy economics, which thanks to our planetary nanoforge are completely solved in PW.

We just need to start working on discovering the Sixth Secret in real-life. :p
 
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