Also, did I ever actually say if Iris and Vision had souls? I don't think I did.
Not in so many words, no. But you wrote the updates they are a part of.
And an add-on - human infants somehow get souls. What about AIs Vision/Iris create?
Edit: Human bioconstructs also had souls (the dragons) - otherwise I would really look forward to an explanation of how Practice came to be.
So - perhaps getting a soul is not so much about what the body is made of, but more how the creators view the offspring conceptually. For humans, the Dragons weren't machines, they were companions - humans in a greater meaning of the word. Hence they got souls, same as homo sapiens sapiens got them. Vision and Iris are results of soul-working, so they got souls. And if greater humanity knows about them and what they are and how they are, I wouldn't wonder if they'd also got accepted in the same way the Dragons did.
 
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I know we don't control this part, but I figure if we have to describe Practice more to the aliens we can say that every Potential has a concept that their abilities revolve around. Of course that barely explains everything, but "conceptual magic bullshit" gets the idea across.
 
"Practice is an expression of soul along the lines of its structure - what we call a focus. Trained persons can achieve effects in harmony with their focus, the better they understand it, the greater the potential effect."
 
Threadmarks: Mini-turn: Second Contact - Part 7
The Schorvan are hilarious:V

Noting the distinct lack of VIs and AIs mentioned in the entirety of the Group of Six.
I wonder if this is a reaction to SL infowar systems being just that good, and their not willing to risk near-sapient intelligences that are vulnerable to subversion. Or if it's just that they themselves are not good enough at coding to build some themselves.

Prologue is equivalent to Sanctity-level medical nanotech, just applied with a different focus. That's quite something, especially when you realize it was created without the Sixth Secret at the time.Given that we have seen Sanctity models in action, I suspect actual militarization isn't that far away. Especially given our experience with Shiplord infantry (we still have samples of their armor IIRC).

That Kendl is 400 years plus is not really a surprise.
For a seventeen hundred year old polity with Sixth Secret nanotech and the ability to integrate cognition and physiology boosting nanoware into their agents, life extension should be significantly easier, and a societal priority.

That the cured remember who Infested them, and even some of why, is every bit the intelligence coup I was hoping it would be. Here's hoping we can get

Interesting, if brief, look at the Telas. The fact that Kendl refers to the Lightseeker thus:
"That and more." One of the Lightseeker's aides spoke when it became clear that their master wasn't intending on doing so.
Suggests a more hierarchical society than Humanity 2.0 is going to be comfortable with. Especially when you add the religious aspect. On the other hand, the fact that they are implied to be the most interested in soul physics among the G6 makes suggestions about what the Third Secret probably centers around.

Interesting look:
It's not something they revere," you flicked a sign to recognise the Luminary envoy across from you.
"Full," Hylmc stated, in the manner of a a proclamation. "And with all the benefits that implies. They remember who infected them, and even a little of why. Unfortunately, I hold no great hope of being able to replicate the feats of Envoy Hawk, which leads me to a delicate question.
And for all their own youth and strangeness, the Luminary had the most advanced defences against subversion barring your own. With detection profilers that flirted on the edge of being better.
A Telas Lightseeker didn't snap, or lose their temper.
Every race knew the proof for the soul. That there was more to the nature of your existence than flesh and neurons. Some, the Telas most recently, built religions around it.
Yet humanity mentioned the soul often, and not in the religious manner that the Telas did.
That note about attempting to replicate the trick is especially intriguing.

I saw this reaction coming.
Specifically commented on it myself.
That's...a really difficult question. Given how those constructs were built, it would most likely self-terminate the moment it realised the danger that its existence would put humanity (its creators) in. This is, I admit, a clean and easy way of avoiding the initial moral swamp of how to address the threat to all of humanity that the sapient lifeform would represent, but it's not as if a self-termination would avoid that. It would just be an after-the-fact sort of deal. Which, I hasten to add, wouldn't make it better. In some ways, it would probably make it worse.
I wonder HOW they'd be able to tell the difference between a surviving Second Secret construct from before the Fall, and a new one built after it in contravention of the Directives.

They have to have some way of distinguishing between them; I doubt Humanity is the first race to have built sapient constructs using the Second Secret before the Shiplords made a house call, and I think it's been mentioned that Humanity altered themselves a little beforehand; not much, but enough to fix stuff like congenital diseases.
 
I wonder HOW they'd be able to tell the difference between a surviving Second Secret construct from before the Fall, and a new one built after it in contravention of the Directives.

They have to have some way of distinguishing between them; I doubt Humanity is the first race to have built sapient constructs using the Second Secret before the Shiplords made a house call, and I think it's been mentioned that Humanity altered themselves a little beforehand; not much, but enough to fix stuff like congenital diseases.
What makes you think they do?

From what I understand, minor self-alterations that didn't lead anywhere else were detected, accounted for, and tacitly allowed to remain. This is what life extension treatments fell into.

Everything else was glassed. So the moment Shiplords detect something that doesn't match a known profile, they know they need to EXTERMINATE those who transgress against their prohibition, having taken measures to ensure that nothing of a species' Second Secret creations or knowledge survived the First Fall.
 
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Snowfire also alluded to the SL being able to reliably detect violations to their edicts.
 
Everything else was glassed. So the moment Shiplords detect something that doesn't match a known profile, they know they need to EXTERMINATE those who transgress against their prohibition, having taken measures to ensure that nothing of a species' Second Secret creations or knowledge survived the First Fall.
Mars was killed, but largely as collateral to killing the RnD centers.

There is no indication that they were specifically hunting existing lifeforms; humanity was fairly sparing at creating sapients, but that won't be true of everyone else. How do you tell a multispecies planet from one with Second Secret constructs that breed true? Or someone cracking open a chimpanzee uplift that was in stasis of some sort?

And noone's going to tell me that a nation terraforming Mars did not make significant use of the Second Secret on Earth to fix a lot of the environmental damage we have going on now. So how much of that are you saying was ripped out?

Besides, like was noted back when the Tombstone hub was active, they are capable of looking for Directive breach and telling the difference.
That's in part why the Red Tower's resurrection did not immediately result in the summoning of a punitive expedition.
 
Curious that no one's mentioned Kendl's age, though. Just not interesting, I guess ;-;
In addition to the above, all of Humanity is immune to aging, and many of them were so because they have inherited Second Secret treatments; a polity as old as the Nileans would be effectively ageless simply through the proliferation of their own Second Secret treatments, even if they didn't have Sixth Secret nanites that did the same thing.
Also, did I ever actually say if Iris and Vision had souls? I don't think I did.
You didn't, but there's been indications. In particular, just about everything regarding Secrets, from comprehension to implementation, require souls, and if Iris, who was literally created to become a researcher, can't interact with Secrets, then, well, it'd be a bit of a narrative waste to have invested so many words on her introduction and development if she is going to inevitably be relegated to tertiary character status.
 
On the flip side, you could also make the case that Iris and Vision can't replicate themselves because replicating themselves requires the use of Practice, which they can't use.
 
What I want to know, is what they're planning to offer in exchange for more information about Practice. I mean, I'm not sure they're going to offer knowledge on Secrets, as they probably aren't sure which ones we have and which ones are Practice replicating their effects, for one thing. On the other hand, they don't have a whole lot else we would consider valuable enough.
 
What I want to know, is what they're planning to offer in exchange for more information about Practice. I mean, I'm not sure they're going to offer knowledge on Secrets, as they probably aren't sure which ones we have and which ones are Practice replicating their effects, for one thing. On the other hand, they don't have a whole lot else we would consider valuable enough.

Well, for starters they can mass produce FTL drives that make the ones you stole off of the Tribute Fleet look like cheap junk. Mainly because that's what they are. And given your general understanding of the First Secret, it's quite possible that if you can get your hands on a schematic you'll be able to replicate it.

Also, hi! Welcome to the quest.
 
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Well, for starters they can mass produces FTL drives that make the ones you stole off of the Tribute Fleet look like cheap junk. Mainly because that's what they are. And given your general understanding of the First Secret, it's quite possible that if you can get your hands on a schematic you'll be able to replicate it.
I have no doubt we CAN replicate it, but the question is if we'll get a War Fleet coming down on us if we try.

At least for now it's probably better to trade.
 
Well, for starters they can mass produce FTL drives that make the ones you stole off of the Tribute Fleet look like cheap junk. Mainly because that's what they are. And given your general understanding of the First Secret, it's quite possible that if you can get your hands on a schematic you'll be able to replicate it.
In addition to @Coda's concern about the Shiplords coming down on us for violating a First Secret stricture (which you've told us they can detect at FTL speeds), I'm... kind of wondering why we'd really even care about more or better First Secret drives in the near/medium term. I mean, yeah, sure, explore the universe, etc etc, except now we know that the dominant things waiting out there want to kill us, and we have some of those things coming for us in a scant few years, so frankly FTL drives are distinctly underwhelming right now.

The things we need from the aliens, in order of importance, would be:
1) Commitments of martial/logistical aid against the Regulars Fleet that's coming in 5-15 years. (I'm not sure what the exact number is because it's been sort of intentionally vague, but IIRC the minimum was said to be ~12 years out from Second Sol, which I think is 5 years after the end of this turn)
2) Access to new Secrets, with which we can better protect ourselves.
3) Access to improvements on existing Secret tech, again, to better protect ourselves.

All this Star Trekky "seek out new life, new civilizations" stuff is, unfortunately, being pressed aside by the urgent need to prevent the Shiplords from making Humanity 2.0 just as extinct as the Dragons, Humanity 1.0, and countless other species that the Shiplords' capricious actions have annihilated.
 
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In addition to @Coda's concern about the Shiplords coming down on us for violating a First Secret stricture (which you've told us they can detect at FTL speeds), I'm... kind of wondering why we'd really even care about more or better First Secret drives in the near/medium term. I mean, yeah, sure, explore the universe, etc etc, except now we know that the dominant things waiting out there want to kill us, and we have some of those things coming for us in a scant few years, so frankly FTL drives are distinctly underwhelming right now.

The things we need from the aliens, in order of importance, would be:
1) Commitments of martial/logistical aid against the Regulars Fleet that's coming in 5-15 years. (I'm not sure what the exact number is because it's been sort of intentionally vague, but IIRC the minimum was said to be ~12 years out from Second Sol, which I think is 5 years after the end of this turn)
2) Access to new Secrets, with which we can better protect ourselves.
3) Access to improvements on existing Secret tech, again, to better protect ourselves.

All this Star Trekky "seek out new life, new civilizations" stuff is, unfortunately, being pressed aside by the urgent need to prevent the Shiplords from making Humanity 2.0 just as extinct as the Dragons, Humanity 1.0, and countless other species that the Shiplords' capricious actions have annihilated.

Agreed. We can found the UFP after we get some breathing room. We can't possibly defend a colony we can't reach pretty much instantly with the Shiplords breathing down our necks either.
 
Mini-turn: Second Contact - Part 8
"Thank you for agreeing to meet with us again so quickly, Envoy Hawk." Emissary Merizan greeted you as she stepped out of the docking tube, two other representatives exiting from their respective ships. That was the Farspeaker for the Confederacy, and that…was the Marionette 'Observer'. You were still trying to get used to the faces of the different species in the Contact Fleet, and the human tendency to look there for expressions was truly confusing with Nileans. Marionettes were almost worse, however, due a truly disturbing resemblance to humanity, so much so that the suspicion of biosculpt was being passed around.

"It was the least we could do, given how our first meeting had to be cut short so abruptly." You replied smoothly. The ability to conference call in what might as well be called time dilation helped, not that you were going to say so. Still, you had a question that you needed answered. "Were you able to confirm what I claimed, then?"

"We were." The Chich'swa Farspeaker, there hadn't been a name attached, replied, stepping up beside who you were almost certain was the true Emissary of the Contact Fleet, even if there happened to be five others peeking over her shoulder. "As we're sure you expected, we have a few questions, if you're willing to answer them."

"You must understand," you suppressed a shiver of surprise as Observer Lorelli continued in a voice that was far too human to be your translation software. "The ability to detect Shiplord subversion methods is something that we have dedicated hundreds of cycles to developing and maintaining. To find a species so young with the capability," she shook her head. "Perhaps it was to be expected, given what else your species has done. But even then."

"Please," you offered a welcoming hand towards the table that had been set up in the centre of the receiving bay. It wasn't much of a venue, truth be told, but it had been as close to neutral as you could offer. "I can't promise to answer all of your questions, but I will give all I can."

You stood by your own chair as the three representatives, no aides this time, sat, then took your own place on the other side of the table. You'd been given some rather strict instructions on what you could say here, and Adriana was linked in to the conversation to confirm or deny permissions this time. It was actually kind of nice, to be working with her like this. If nothing else, it gave you an easily accessed caller for what you could release.

"There is only one question of import, I'm afraid." You blinked and not just at her choice of words. The fingers she had on the table had been formed into a very simple handsign, but it was an absolute. Those weren't commonly used at all; it was like a human smiling extra wide, or screwing up their face in an exaggerated frown, backed up with total seriousness.

Regardless, you had a job to do, and you wouldn't let something like that rattle you. "Very well." You formed an equally simple sign for sincerity, but this one was a little less definitive. You couldn't promise an answer, after all. "May I ask the nature of the question?"

"It involves Practice," Lorelli noted, so helpfully. You'd have been shocked if it had been about anything else.

Emissary Merizan waited perhaps a beat after that little piece of theatre before speaking again. "What did you to me, Envoy?"

Oh hell. It had always been a possibility, you'd known that from the moment you committed to Speak a day and a half ago. That you might affect more than just the three Shiplord infected individuals in a meaningful way, one that they or others would notice. It had been a risk, but leaving those souls trapped would have been a greater one. Even if it brought up these sorts of awkward questions now, instead of later. Perhaps fortunately, trying to obfuscate would be futile.

"What changed?" You asked. A small part of you, a very small part, was almost thankful for the question. It gave you the most leeway in what you could say. The absolute in Kendl's hands transitioned into confusion, and you took the chance it offered. "I can guess, Emissary Merizan. But I'd like to be sure, if that's all the same to you. This is a sensitive matter, after all."

She didn't like the response, but she swallowed her instinctive reaction so well you almost didn't notice it. Sidra, on the other hand, was a different story. "With respect, Envoy Hawk, I think you're far more likely to be able to explain it than I am. All I know is that some of who I was a local day and a half ago isn't the same anymore. And we'd very much like to know why, as well as how what you did to me was even possible."

"To be clear," the Marionette cut in again. "This is considered our primary interaction for the day. There are others if this one is resolved, but what you did to Emissary Merizan requires an explanation. With that said, we are prepared to trade information."

"What sort of information?" You asked carefully.

"Given your defeat of the Tribute Fleet, you should have received a new set of Directives that grants you the ability to spread beyond your star. We are willing to offer First Secret derived drives significantly more advanced than the ones you can currently access, or the schematics for an interstellar communications relay, which you clearly do not possess. Given what we've judged of the likely Shiplord response, the latter is likely to be of more interest."

"That seems somewhat less than immediate," you began, and the Nilean signed a firm headshake.

"Whatever you did is going to be far less than immediate in terms of what it'll let us do, and I'm quite sure you know that." She stated bluntly. "You freed the subverted members of our diplomatic staff from something far worse than slavery, and that is appreciated. But the energy burst you released also affected me, somehow. Given that you didn't accuse me of having been subverted, I clearly wasn't under a similar influence. That said, it's not the only thing we're willing to offer."

"Although you appear to have a highly unusual understanding of the wider galaxy, not least cultural cues that you by all rights shouldn't have any awareness of, there's a great deal you don't know. Our contact package contained a brief summary, but there's a lot more than that to the galaxy. Between us all, we've been around for over five thousand of your years. In other words, what do you want to know?"

From your own knowledge, Adriana is almost certain to take the second option presented by the Emissary Merizan, although you're not sure what she'll want you to ask about. That said, you could suggest a topic of your own if you wish to. If you want to suggest a topic to ask about, or even a specific question, please write it in at the start of any vote. Beyond that, how do you intend to phrase Amanda's explanation of what she did to Kendl?

What do?
[] Write-in
 
Be aware when coming up with an explanation that you have been not-quite-ordered to refrain from explaining Speaking as a discrete branch of Practice. Amanda is quite capable of guessing what's occurred here, even with exact confirmation. Something was Healed by her Word, and from the lack of physical changes it was an emotional/mental restoration. Although xenopsychology isn't a sphere that exists in human scientific parlance, her Focus does afford a few advantages. Emissary Merizan appears to be grappling with a major blow to the foundations of what she's become used to calling her existence. Given an assumed prevalence of life extension technology, it's possible that she wiped away centuries of minor and/or major psychological trauma. At the very least, you'll have lessened much of it. That has effects.

Moving on to topics of note, this could be an excellent point to suggest asking a bit more about the Shiplords given the free question, and that could be used as a way to bring up the UPI report on Shiplord ability to handle a galactic scale revolt to their power. Although that might be a little much for the second meeting, and you'd have to explain how you know that. A word of warning; trying to pin it on the contents of a recovered Tribute Fleet database isn't going to work.
 
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Well, it shouldn't be too hard to explain Project Insight in vague terms by way of analogy. They've seen the sheer power that Practice offers when used in a focused manner, so saying that we applied the same principles to intelligence gathering should neither surprise them much nor tell them much about what's really going on.
 
I suppose the obvious question is "what's next?" The Shiplords have some sort of methodology behind what they do, so the visitors no doubt have some idea about what a species faces after defeating a Tribute Fleet for the first time.

As for how to explain what we did, the gist should be that our own particular facet of Practice is Mending, and Kendl was caught in the radius of an AOE healing spell. Since the focus of the Shiplord nanites and thus of our healing was the brain/mind, and since Practice is somewhat of a conceptual art, it would have seen psychological stress and mental trauma as just as much of a wound to be healed as it did the Shiplord infiltration of the three infected people.
 
Well, it shouldn't be too hard to explain Project Insight in vague terms by way of analogy. They've seen the sheer power that Practice offers when used in a focused manner, so saying that we applied the same principles to intelligence gathering should neither surprise them much nor tell them much about what's really going on.
If they are iffy about explaining speaking, I can't imagine them agreeing to tell anyone about Project Insight.
It's wat too important to risk, especially on the second meeting, information really is the life or death if humanity right now.
 
or the schematics for an interstellar communications relay, which you clearly do not possess. Given what we've judged of the likely Shiplord response, the latter is likely to be of more interest.
Does such a relay communicate with other relays we build, or other relays of the same type?
I.e. are they giving us a means for interstellar communication with them, or merely with our own interstellar units?

(In the latter case, I must admit that I don't see exceedingly much value. I'm not sure why we want interstellar colonies right now; what could it possibly accomplish?)
 
ok, so speaking is kind of a big deal, but how big of a thing would it to be to explain that while it's a very limited form of practice its effects tend towards the conceptual? That's kind of a big thing to give away but I suspect they are not going to let this go.

ok maybe something along the lines of

"you have to understand, what I did was probably the least understood branch of practice we have. I can't give you a detailed understanding because we ourselves have only a vague one. As far as we can tell its outcomes tend to cleave to conceptual themes more than anything. For example, what I did centrerd around a theme of healing, this had both the intended effect of removing the infection among your staff, as well as apparently having a mental effect on you. The exact way the theme was applied is murky, but as a guess, I would say it most likely applied the theme to mental health."


it lets them know we have conceptual bullshit abilities, but I don't think we'd be able to hide that from them anyway.
 
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Be aware when coming up with an explanation that you have been not-quite-ordered to refrain from explaining Speaking as a discreet branch of Practice.
You probably mean "discrete" as in separate / standalone, not "discreet" as in circumspect and unobtrusive.

That said, I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Are they trying to pass of Speaking as a mundane thing that all or most Practice can do? if so, why?
 
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