The Politics of Tabletop RPGs

*in~~~~~hale* The pop music focus of Poison was designed to emphasize the warped and artificial nature of Angel Dust's relationship to Valentino through its contrast to both the other songs, which trend towards what you expect to see in a musical more than pop music, and the visual associations with the other residents of the hotel (which Angel Dust can form actual relationships with) that favor more of an jazz, old timey radio and vaguely 1920's aesthetic.
 
that's fair.
but, like, i get the impression that the main reason that the quote-unquote "puriteens" are so fixated on consumption-as-activism is that it's the only avenue of expression presented to them; they're growing up in a nightmarish sousveillance panopticon where they are Creators and Consumers of Content first and people second, so of course they're like this. blaming them for that is like blaming a battery hen for not being able to walk.
and while i'm not, like, condoning kneejerk politics, i get why they're uncomfortable with INSERT CONTROVERSIAL THING HERE - a lot of shit that gets big online makes me uncomfortable, and i'm currently rereading peter milligan's shade the changing man for fun.
obviously "it makes me uncomfortable" isn't proof that something is Bad Media, but if someone's critical media literacy is as anemic as the average usamerican high-school graduate i can understand why they'd go from "this popular thing makes me extremely uncomfortable" to "therefore it must be Bad", because they haven't got the mental toolset to take apart their discomfort and understand where it's coming from.

Ah. To be more clear, while I'm complaining about them, I recognize that social and economic factors are to blame for this trend. Individuals being shaped by their environment all that. It's not someone's fault they're not given the tools to analyze media beyond a superficial level or whatever it makes them feel. I can only imagine how much worse public education has gotten in the years since I got out, and my family (myself included) had a rough time of it.

Given the understandably polarizing social and political context we live in, it's little wonder this is cropping up.

But at the same time, it's obnoxious as shit. Hence, my whinging :p

You are assuming there is no merit to the criticism.

It is offensive to fetishize sexual abuse. It is offensive to trivialize sexual abuse. One can legitimately argue that Hazbin Hotel does both with the furry kink thing, the animated porno music video, the exaggerated cartoon elements, etc. Whether it crosses the line and where the line even is are somewhat subjective questions.

Much as I want to spin off an annoyed diatribe about Hazbin and this "furry kink" thing you've mentioned twice, there's definitely room for a discussion about whether it poorly handles the subject of sexual abuse. You're right that it's a highly subjective thing.

I just wasn't sure if you were saying something like "People were primed to criticize it because it put sexual abuse next to furry OCs" and I couldn't figure out if you were dismissing the criticism on those grounds, or saying people were right to base their criticism on expectations.
 
Last edited:
*in~~~~~hale* The pop music focus of Poison was designed to emphasize the warped and artificial nature of Angel Dust's relationship to Valentino through its contrast to both the other songs, which trend towards what you expect to see in a musical more than pop music, and the visual associations with the other residents of the hotel (which Angel Dust can form actual relationships with) that favor more of an jazz, old timey radio and vaguely 1920's aesthetic.
i mean, i think the reason people keep saying that part is fetishistic is because it was storyboarded by someone who is pretty openly into it? like, they've drawn comics and shit. and yeah, yeah, kinktomato or whatever, but the flipside of that is that Your Kink Isn't Other People's Kink.
 
i mean, i think the reason people keep saying that part is fetishistic is because it was storyboarded by someone who is pretty openly into it? like, they've drawn comics and shit. and yeah, yeah, kinktomato or whatever, but the flipside of that is that Your Kink Isn't Other People's Kink.
What a weird reason. I know people are going to complain anyways, but that's really digging for an excuse.

Also I'm remembering we're in the TTRPG thread. Much as I'm sorry for my part in bringing us off-topic in the first place.
 
*in~~~~~hale number 2* There's a tradition of using the fantasical as a way to address serious topics. It could be argued that this is mainly aimed at children, however I view it as padding. Generational trauma might hit too close to home for some people, but the fantastical elements of Encanto provide a safe emotional distance, or since we're talking about non-human cast there are the ways the various Toy Story movies look at relationships over time.

EDIT: To bring this back on topic, it's similar to, say, using a cyberpunk setting for a game to explore power imbalances.
 
Last edited:
Are we really doing "It's the fault of kids these days!" thing?
I, for one, am not blaming any real, serious, comprehensive problem on "the kids these days." Personally, I'm not even all that attached to the idea that the occasional 'faux-progressive' irritants I encounter are all young (in context, under 25 or so I guess).

But I will say that people are allowed an occasional grumble about things that merely annoy them, even if those things aren't the biggest evil in the world or the ultimate cause of life's problems.

I blame growing up in a panopticon
The obvious reason would be "the universal sensation of being watched and exposed at all times, and of seeing what everyone else is doing at all times, causes people to get defensive, to get self-righteous as a way of rationalizing that they don't need to be ashamed after all, and encourages people to make performative displays of whatever they imagine 'goodness' to be, even if they have a very limited understanding of why those things are good."

Of course, what we have is worse than a panopticon. The panopticon, the original prison idea imagined by, I think, Jeremy Bentham, was laid out so that the guards in the central spire could observe all the prisoners, but importantly, the prisoners couldn't see each other. Basically trying to do with imaginative layout what we'd do with security cameras, because hey, it was 1800.

With social media, not only are we perfectly visible to an invisible central authority that can direct its gaze at any of us at any time, but we don't have privacy from each other, or from whatever random bozo decides to take an intrusive interest in our lives or scream curses at us. Which makes it so much worse. Like I said, some kind of super-panopticon.

all this shit about "the puriteens" is pretty funny considering that most of the actual impetus behind the actual censorship of fiction and the internet is, like, usamerican legislation and usamerica-based financial middlemen, neither of which are run by teenagers.
It's okay for a guy to be annoyed about random bozos who scream at him on social media and webforums because they have a hyperactive sense of self-righteous moral purity, while also being aware that most damaging censorship is directly controlled by an entirely different group of bozos in suits who have their fingers on the triggers of "delete entire category of works" cannons.

Again, it's okay to complain about things that are merely annoying, even if they are not the cause of all life's problems. Indeed, that is part of the problem being complained about here- the inability to even temporarily change the subject, the strain and irritation of dealing with constant scrutiny, often by people who don't really think it's that important for them to understand the things they are scrutinizing.

(and let's be honest, both sides of the ~fandom censorship debate~ consist primarily of people in their 20s-30s. actual teenagers are too busy being horrible to each other in person to get into that shit)
For the record, that's my gut feeling too. It changes nothing.

that's fair.
but, like, i get the impression that the main reason that the quote-unquote "puriteens" are so fixated on consumption-as-activism is that it's the only avenue of expression presented to them; they're growing up in a nightmarish sousveillance panopticon where they are Creators and Consumers of Content first and people second, so of course they're like this. blaming them for that is like blaming a battery hen for not being able to walk.
Entirely valid!

They are nonetheless annoying.

And as private individuals, we really have no tools for helping such a person in the moment except to say "okay, y'all need to touch grass, plus also here is, as Bread says, how to analyze y'all's discomfort and figure out where it's coming from."

A thing it is nearly impossible to do without recognizing the nature of the problem, which is that we have people who are reflexively condemning stuff at the drop of a hat for various reasons including the ones you describe.

I think people might be extrapolating too much from Twitter culture. The character limit and structure are rather antithetical to productive discussion and encourage brigades based on sound bites.
Yeah well, Twitter is a prominent part of our culture, and other social media platforms are too. These aren't isolated little islands where people mess with each other and everyone else just gets on with their lives; they form connections to other spaces, and people who have lives outside them go into those spaces on the regular.
 
Last edited:
in~~~~~hale* The pop music focus of Poison was
i mean, i think the reason people keep saying that part is fetishistic is because it was storyboarded by someone who is pretty openly into it?
o_O It's a bunch of porno scenes that wouldn't be out of place in a furry doujin. You don't need to go into the details behind the production to decide it is fetishtic.
Much as I want to spin off an annoyed diatribe about Hazbin and this "furry kink" thing you've mentioned twice, there's definitely room for a discussion about whether it poorly handles the subject of sexual abuse. You're right that it's a highly subjective thing.

I just wasn't sure if you were saying something like "People were primed to criticize it because it put sexual abuse next to furry OCs" and I couldn't figure out if you were dismissing the criticism on those grounds, or saying people were right to base their criticism on expectations.
I don't know what you mean by putting furry kink in quotes. Are you unaware of the relatively large furry fetish community or the appeal of Vivziepop's work to that demographic?

For some people having furry cartoon OCs handle the topic at all is over the line. For some people it wouldn't inherently go over the line but they'd assume someone that chose furry cartoon OCs to handle the topic would also make other decisions they'd find distasteful.

I think it is fair to judge a work without actually watching it if you are reasonably confident it has objectionable content that you don't want to watch. E.g I feel justified in my opinion of Cuties even though I haven't and never intend to see the movie.
 
o_O It's a bunch of porno scenes that wouldn't be out of place in a furry doujin. You don't need to go into the details behind the production to decide it is fetishtic.

I don't know what you mean by putting furry kink in quotes. Are you unaware of the relatively large furry fetish community or the appeal of Vivziepop's work to that demographic?

For some people having furry cartoon OCs handle the topic at all is over the line. For some people it wouldn't inherently go over the line but they'd assume someone that chose furry cartoon OCs to handle the topic would also make other decisions they'd find distasteful.

I think it is fair to judge a work without actually watching it if you are reasonably confident it has objectionable content that you don't want to watch. E.g I feel justified in my opinion of Cuties even though I haven't and never intend to see the movie.
"Furry fetish" As in furries who are into, like, bdsm or something? Like you're being really weird about this. Say what you mean.
 
No... Furry fetish as people that are sexually attracted to anthro animal characters. Did you think the furry fandom was a platonic thing?
IDK. You're the one who sees furries and thinks "that's gotta be strictly only a fetish, no way around it, that's 100% a sex thing" apparently. Might want to watch what stones you throw in that glass house.
 
Last edited:
So, funny thing; over in the trans comic community on Tumblr (niche community, I know) there's a fad currently on going about imagining what it would be like if there was hormone replacement therapy that would let you become a furry.

Some examples;

www.tumblr.com

_BubbleVerse

ANIMAL HRT - CHAPTER 1 In the Flesh Inspired by @AyvieArt 's original work ! (and countless others) HERE IT IS ! This was supposed to stay simple and quick, but seeing where I wanted to go with th…
www.tumblr.com

NyxisArt

Ok I finally finished it! Puppy HRT Interlude - Freaks Featuring @kaylasartwork, thank you so much for those awesome backgrounds! ^^ First - Prev - Next
www.tumblr.com

Flakes are the best

Fish HRT! PART 3 MONTH 2! TW BLOOD Featuring @deadeyedfae and @kaylasartwork START PREV NEXT BONUS EPISODE 1 made by the amazing @prettiestplatypus BONUS EPISODE 2 Collab with @kaylasartwork and…

Tumblr

Tumblr is a place to express yourself, discover yourself, and bond over the stuff you love. It's where your interests connect you with your people.

Not too fetish-y.
 
To bring us back on the subject of politics of tabletop RPGs, and completing the previous circuit about vapid, shallow moralizing:



Behold the depraved depths of the furry fandom.
Look at all this naked sexualization going on.
 
Last edited:
I've been absolutely stunned.

Yes people can appreciate anthro characters in platonic ways and there are plenty of works with anthro that are non sexual e.g Winnie the Pooh. I never suggested that they can't.

That doesn't mean that the furry fetish doesn't exist. That people don't commission furry porn art, engage in furry ERP, get off to anthro characters, etc. Angel Dust is no Winnie The Pooh.
 
I'm honestly kinda stunned that we've returned to the weird, "They even YIFF" moralizing, I thought that shit died in the 2000s or maybe the 2010s.

Like none of what you've said actually demonstrates anything? Like, as an example, do you believe someone who has drawn porn of humans therefore can't also write or draw stories about humans that aren't actually all just about gratifying a fetish/lust/desire/whatever?
 
No... Furry fetish as in people that are sexually attracted to anthro animal characters. Did you think the furry fandom was a platonic thing?
Yes people can appreciate anthro characters in platonic ways and there are plenty of works with anthro that are non sexual e.g Winnie the Pooh. I never suggested that they can't.

That doesn't mean that the furry fetish doesn't exist. That people don't commission furry porn art, engage in furry ERP, get off to anthro characters, etc. Angel Dust is no Winnie The Pooh.
So which is it? Is the furry fandom a fetish? Or can people enjoy anthro characters in platonic ways?

Or are you going to do that thing where you've chosen to define an absolutely massive swath of people only by what negative traits you assigned to them? Are you going to stand here and tell me "the only people in the furry fandom are those people who explicitly sexualize anthropomorphic characters?" Because that's provably and demonstrably false too - and I know that's not what you've been saying from the start.

That doesn't mean that the furry fetish doesn't exist. That people don't commission furry porn art, engage in furry ERP, get off to anthro characters, etc
Oh I see, though. You're moving the goalpost! I didn't assert that people don't commission furry porn or do ERP. I never said that at all.

But you asserted that the entirety of the fandom is a fetish and is non-platonic, and now you're trying to walk it back now that you're being held accountable for an absolutist position.
 
Last edited:
Like at the bottom of it, first, this isn't about Tabletop RPGs unless someone is making a Hazbin Hotel TTRPG, and I honestly wouldn't know how that'd work?

Maybe a Social RPG focusing on the adventures/becoming a better person or something? I dunno??

But second, people can be multiple things at once. Like, people who watch or draw porn can also write or draw stories that aren't about sexualizing and/or trivializing the characters, you get that, right?

Like fundamentally a person can do roleplay or have a kink and then write or do things that aren't all about indulging the kink? So honestly on a case to case basis I find the defense of digging into things to prove that they've never had a kink or sexual desire... is kinda worthless?

Yes, and?

I can make no claims either way about Hazbin Hotel, if there's some elaborate point about how specific plot beats specifically trivialize abuse... then someone could presumably make them in a thread that isn't about Tabletop RPGs+Politics. But I think even a demonstration that someone drawing it can find furries attractive or whatever wouldn't be that slam dunk evidence?

Because most (though not all) people who have written or drawn stories about abuse or other heavy topics are... also capable of attraction to other people?

I don't even know how to loop it back to Tabletop RPGs because it's completely out of left (or honestly Right) field.
 
Last edited:
Ok, but the whole theme of Hazbin Hotel is that the potential for goodness, ability to make a change for the better, capability to form connections with your fellows and innate human dignity exists in all regardless of their situation, even in a self described coked up dick sucking ho. It tests those themes using one of the most extreme settings imaginable (Hell) and using a character that for many would be the type of figure most would see as having the least prospects (the self described coked up dick sucking ho.)

EDIT: Fair, not exactly the right spot for this.
 
Anyways.

For those not in the know, Wanderhome is an RPG where you play as anthropomorphic animal-folk travelling across the countryside from parts unknown to parts unknown. Everyone gathers around and takes turn describing the scene and the setting, and how each of your characters interact with that setting.

Per the description in the link above, it's a Redwall-esque setting that asks "what if the pastoral land wasn't embroiled in conflict and strife". Even better, it has a few options on how to play (and a safety system that asks "what are you comfortable playing with" and character/setting traits that you can choose and discard if you're not comfortable with certain themes.)



Maybe a Social RPG focusing on the adventures/becoming a better person or something? I dunno??

Because most (though not all) people who have written or drawn stories about abuse or other heavy topics are... also capable of attraction to other people?

I don't even know how to loop it back to Tabletop RPGs because it's completely out of left (or honestly Right) field.

Namely, those themes are loss, injury, and sorrow.

The purpose of Wanderhome is exploring a setting through storytelling, using the animal-folk (called Kin) to establish a sense of distance from the the setting and themes therein. It encourages a mentality of distance and contemplation, as there's no central conflict - and indeed, the book makes it clear that you're not here to solve others' problems. In fact, help others is a resource you can only use sparingly to solve minor problems for NPCs, if you can do so at all.

But, in my mind, Wanderhome's setting is done best with all of the themes.

Because Wanderhome is a setting that's recovering from the aftermath of a brutal, distant war. The details are vague and unspecific, but there's an air of vulnerable, tentative hope and peace coming back to a people collectively recovering from such trauma. That quiet contemplation and distance with the setting lets one approach the fragile topic of healing in spite of deeply-held trauma (and the threat of continuing adversity, as the people of Wanderhome are not without their problems in both a political and personal sense).

It's a system that gets away from the assumption that roleplaying games must be violent, and encourages a more thoughtful and social approach to roleplaying, where the fun is coming together and weaving a tale of strangers who've met purely by chance.

It's a purely social RPG that's all about RP and vibes and I adore the shit out of it.
 
Last edited:
I'm honestly kinda stunned that we've returned to the weird, "They even YIFF" moralizing, I thought that shit died in the 2000s or maybe the 2010s.

Like none of what you've said actually demonstrates anything? Like, as an example, do you believe someone who has drawn porn of humans therefore can't also write or draw stories about humans that aren't actually all just about gratifying a fetish/lust/desire/whatever?
No and what does that have to do with anything?

It is offensive to fetishize rape so any unnecessary kinkiness involved in the portrayal is suspect whether it is furry, feet, macro/micro or something else. I don't have anything against furries, sexual or otherwise.
So which is it? Is the furry fandom a fetish? Or can people enjoy anthro characters in platonic ways?

Or are you going to do that thing where you've chosen to define an absolutely massive swath of people only by what negative traits you assigned to them? Are you going to stand here and tell me "the only people in the furry fandom are those people who explicitly sexualize anthropomorphic characters?" Because that's provably and demonstrably false too - and I know that's not what you've been saying from the start.


Oh I see, though. You're moving the goalpost! I didn't assert that people don't commission furry porn or do ERP. I never said that at all.

But you asserted that the entirety of the fandom is a fetish and is non-platonic, and now you're trying to walk it back now that you're being held accountable for an absolutist position.
Perhaps I should have stated "purely platonic".

My position is that there exist people that do have a sexual attraction to anthro characters in particular and Vivziepop's art is obviously appealing to such people.

Your position appeared to be that "furry fetish" didn't exist so Angel Dust being an anthro couldn't be an issue.

I stated that "furry fandom" isn't platonic which people interpreted to mean "is only about sex" and not "has sexual elements".
 
There's like anthro character in the Viziepop stuff and that's in Helluva Boss. Everyone else is a demon with some abstract edgy design with maybe like some wasp traits and stuff but I would otherwise define as just wacky cartoon human. So I have no fucking idea where the freakout about "furry fetish" comes from.

Anyway, my opinion on puriteens is that all the effort and enthusiasm that goes into terrorizing older strangers over sex scenes and movies is much better redirected into terrorizing older strangers over Palestine.
 
Last edited:
Another fluffy social TTRPG is Golden Sky Stories. It is about magical animal beings hanging around a Japanese town and making connections with the locals.
 
Back
Top