The Leila Hann Let's Watch Spoiler Thread: Seriously, Stop Spoiling Stuff

I'm not sure why Leila would care about the first? The second OTOH has potential, the pirates seem to be Leila's favorite part of the show and she might be interested in their background. You could also decide to just pick out the pirate focused episodes to commission, there's no law saying you have to commission the entire show.
She wouldn't but it supports my headcanon, so I figure I'd mention it. Also, the general theme of people not thinking through the implications of their creations (which was made explicit by Marsala* near the end of the first season finale, when JT's E-Frame says goodbye. Which was never followed up on, and it bugs me)

I don't want to commish more, since her interpretation of it makes me cranky. But I'm morbidly curious as to how she'd interpret that one bit of info.

*Who, IIRC, I believe is presented as begin right pretty much 100% of the time, incidentally.
 
Last edited:
I mean, come on dude.

It's hard to believe you are willing to use the word social justice in the context of actual social justice as opposed to using it the way the right does, mockingly to make it seem like people who care about social issues are shrill and stupid.

That's a wee bit uncharitable.

I explained my reasoning quite clearly. Yes, there are a lot of white racists who point to bad actors in order to tar the movement or deflect from their own bigotry, and are absolutely being disingenuous when they act like every person talking about social justice is "shrill and stupid".

I can also understand why people get defensive when white people point out these bad actors. But Berk seems to say they should never be talked about EVER because of how tainted it is. And that is stupid.
 
I can also understand why people get defensive when white people point out these bad actors. But Berk seems to say they should never be talked about EVER because of how tainted it is. And that is stupid.
Care must be taken when the topic is discussed, because of how often it is abused by people trying to distract from the issues the movement wants to deal with by bringing up individuals who may or may not have the interests of the cause they or their detractors claim they represent in mind.
 
That's fair. I brought up requires hate because she was an example of someone who did absolutely MONSTROUS things (at least one writer attempted an overdose after rh went to town on her.) Laura Mixon wrote a report going into detail of just HOW terrible she was (most of her victims were other women of color, she went beyond performative language into death threats, she told at least one person "I hope you get raped by dogs" when she knew dogs were seen as unclean in that woman's culture.) This was around the time she gave absolutely fake apologies due to trying to become published.

A lot of left wingers tried to downplay just how awful what she did was or attacked Mixon for daring to point out that Requires Hate was a psychopath.

That some of the people going after her were doing so in bad faith does NOT change that she was actively doing damage to the cause, nor does it change that many were burying their heads in the sand to avoid admitting that yes even POC can be cruel or go to far. Again, life's bloody complicated.

Here's a link to an overview of the Mixon Report.


It's the same with Adam Taurus stans. Yes they could have delved more into the backstory to give him a bit of sympathy/show how the branding helped turn him into the monster he became; but a lot of the responses ignore that (with better writing and development) Sienna Khan and Ilia could have easily been the kind of principled fighter the fans thought Adam was. That their solutions always involve making Adam not a murderous incel shows that they don't really want fair representation so much as they either can't admit that "cool badasses" can be monsters or don't want to admit that revolutionary movements can have bad actors who exploit the cause for power.
 
Rule 3: Be Civil - Attempts to crowd users out are not civil.
Yam, I am sincerely asking you to please shut up. And, quite honestly, I am unsure why the 'totally down for killing and encouraged Adam before Beacon' Sienna and femcel Ilia are better candidates for being principled in your eyes.


On the topic of the Neospaians, while I can see them becoming genocidal, the way they become expansionistically so like in the show feels off to me.
 
Last edited:
That's a wee bit uncharitable.

I explained my reasoning quite clearly. Yes, there are a lot of white racists who point to bad actors in order to tar the movement or deflect from their own bigotry, and are absolutely being disingenuous when they act like every person talking about social justice is "shrill and stupid".

I can also understand why people get defensive when white people point out these bad actors. But Berk seems to say they should never be talked about EVER because of how tainted it is. And that is stupid.

It isn't white racists. It's literally the entirety of the right. Every single social right winger in America has embraced the narrative of social justice as something shrill stupid hypocrites do.

It isn't a far right thing, it's just a right thing. Thus, when talking to a right winger, I'm not gonna pretend you aren't speaking in the context that the entirety of the right wing lays on social justice movements. You know this context, I know this context.
 
Yam, I am sincerely asking you to please shut up. And, quite honestly, I am unsure why the 'totally down for killing and encouraged Adam before Beacon' Sienna and femcel Ilia are better candidates for being principled in your eyes.


On the topic of the Neospaians, while I can see them becoming genocidal, the way they become expansionistically so like in the show feels off to me.

Sienna is implied not to know the full extent of what Adam is doing, and Ilia actually gets fleshed out/wvolves out of it (and she's nowhere near as obsessive). Key differences. And the fact you oppose Adam being a murderous incel is purely because you can't admit people like him exist.

Again you pretty much want the revolutionaries to be as pure as snow.

So no. I'm not going to shut up just because you're uncomfortable
 
I've been keeping an eye on this because I can't help myself. So I have one question. Do you really not see how having the leader of a cause and the one with a connection to a main character, thus much more important to viewers than the others, be a piece of shit is doing much more than creating shades of grey? It's why people tend to worry a lot about who might be considered/viewed as the representative or voice of a group, because certain things make it very hard for lots of people to agree with what a "tainted person" says. By having an evil person be the face of a cause, a creator is making any support for it come with support for a bad person and thus makes it gross to support, say, an extreme stance on Faunus rights in RWBY. Because supporting that means connecting yourself to the Adam character's faction.

Also, when it comes to fiction, lots of people tend to care about the narrative importance of characters. What is going on between main characters and their connected characters matters more to viewers than what secondary or less important characters do. In that sense, Adam or similar characters in fiction like Karli in Falcon just matter more to viewers. So what they're like matters more to the cause they're connected to than other characters.

If you want to create actual moral greyness in a cause, in my opinion, you need to first make sure the outright bad actors aren't in a position where they are the face of it to viewers. They could have their own faction or group, but don't make them so important that they taint everyone else too much by association. To get the kind of shades of grey that you have in real life, you need to recreate the other types of members that would exist alongside a Adam type and have them have the narrative presence that would give them the weight in the story equal to their real life status verses the Adam type bad actors. That would mean, for example, having multiple narratively meaningful characters who have the different stances that exist towards them like "this guy x sucks, but we can't get rid of him because of what he contributes" or "I don't want to accept that guy x might be bad" or "I want to have nothing to do with guy X and want to get rid of him, but I lack the ability to do so because no one can actually do that". Make sure that it's clear that the outright unsupportable part isn't made equal or superior in narrative presence to the grey side that are doing/believing things that have moral complexity, such as working with the Adam character. It would be preferable to have that sort of actually morally grey character be in charge of a white fang type faction, a character who could be in a story line looking at those bad actors in the complex area of how to respond to them. There's be room for viewers to take different stances on the matter and choose to support either the white fang leader, their opponent such a Blake character connected to them or form their own stance. That's not possible when the leader figure/most important figure of the extreme group is someone written to be flat out bad. Once you have that, you're stuck either headcannoning or with an obvious right side that hurts any sort of support for the extreme faction or of their cause.

This is just me rambling and venting out some thoughts. Hopefully, it makes sense.
 
Last edited:
Thanks. I'll fix that. Hopefully, that's the only part that flat out doesn't make sense. I typed the above as an annoyed vent, something I might not have bothered with while feeling tired and drained, if not for how much this is annoying me.
 
Last edited:
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful - This sort of rhetoric is not acceptable.
Kay.

The point is pretty clear: "Don't make moustache-twirling caricatures your symbol of morally gray issues". The issue we keep running into is that nobody still watching RWBY actually cares about those issues. They just see individual characters and go "how can I use them to make what I want to see in my fanfics happen?".
Nobody cares about the White Fang aside from setting details for their Sienna x Kali slashfics. Any interest the fans have in Adam has clearly melted down to "guy you can bash to prove the power of lesbians", and there's no part of that which is compatible with "leader of a minority rights group".
But you don't want to outright say you have no interest in minority rights, especially when you put that right next to "I really like seeing these two girls making out because they make a cute couple in my fanfics!". So they tow RT's party line of plausible deniability - "We're not saying minorities are bad! We're just writing a story about bad guys who have minorities among their henchmen!" - and then go right back to painting characters in the brush of mutually agreed-upon fan interpretation.
Namely, Adam is evil jerkbad who die a million times for being straight and wanting lesbian woman, Blake is good victim self-insert who got hurt by straight man for being lesbian, Yang is manic pixie dream lesbian who save Blake from patriarchy and lets them ride off into sunset kissing and scissoring on a motorbike.

There's no reasoning with people so insistent on these views. They see you saying Adam was mishandled, and so they respond by calling you a rape apologist.
 
Last edited:
And the fact you oppose Adam being a murderous incel is purely because you can't admit people like him exist
If we're going to do this, the sole reason why you're against Adam being shown any nuance is that you want the first and central focus of revolutionary activity to be painted as evil.


NGL, Killmonger? He was as bad as Adam in plenty of ways, but if Adam had been written more like him, there would be less backlash, as his trauma would be acknowledged. You don't have to have him be made a good guy like you've ranted how everyone who hates RWBY's white comfort bullshit storyline has wanted.
 
Last edited:
Why does it always, inevitably, come back to RWBY?
It's a shared experience of the entire thread, and LordYam just keeps on demonizing people who criticize it. Remember when he said that because The Expanse has a character like Adam, it means we couldn't criticize RWBY?

Heck, I think this is the fourth or fifth time we've circled back to "Adam bad, therefore RWBY good". Can someone please threadban LordYam? If he wants to gush about how much he likes RWBY fanfiction, then he should do it in the RWBY fanfic threads.

Man, I wish I was still able to read fanfiction. My standards are way too high these days.
 
Last edited:
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive — Please don't derail threads like this.
It's a shared experience of the entire thread, and LordYam just keeps on demonizing people who criticize it. Remember when he said that because The Expanse has a character like Adam, it means we couldn't criticize RWBY?

Heck, I think this is the fourth or fifth time we've circled back to "Adam bad, therefore RWBY good". Can someone please threadban LordYam? If he wants to gush about how much he likes RWBY fanfiction, then he should do it in the RWBY fanfic threads.
Don't be a baby. I like RWBY but agree that it's flawed. The issue is more "there are things to criticize, Adam being a bad guy and a monster isn't one of them."

Doesn't help that most of the criticism made against it is shallow/in bad faith (Leila being an idealogue who refuses to consider that she might be wrong is a common thread throughout everything she touches even if she makes smart points).

Hell greener is pretty damn homophobic in how he describes the Blake Yang thing.
 
Last edited:
Of course, Yam, you truly are a hero who only has the best in mind for the black and Jewish communities when you use issues that harm them in order to defend your fave show.
 
Here's something I'd like to add in regards to my previous post. In shows, you sometimes have plots where a major person in a cast group gets replaced by a more extreme one or is made more extreme by an event. In those situations, moral complexity comes from two possible areas. The first is from that character wrestling with the morality of their decisions and with their emotions. The next is how the other important characters in the group respond to the change and each others stance on what the major person is doing. Of course, you usually have viewpoint characters who are just as important narratively as that major person/leader figure and might have the entire cast be within the group. But I feel that it adds to my point. Those plots work because you have main characters, who you should have a solid connection with, wrestling with the complexity of what's going and room to focus on that and the tensions between character.

To put it in a shorter way, it's the sort of thing best either made into its own story or done by those with superb talent at handling large casts, if made into a sub plot, as it involves giving being able to give your characters important character levels of depth with a limited amount of screen time.

Edit: RWBY keeps coming because it's Yam's particular fixation when it comes to trying to beat us on the head with the idea that we're dense minded extremists who can't stand criticism. Because in his head, there's no way at least some of our responses could be because his type of fixation on bad guys is typically used to bludgeon us by a large portion of society. No, not just racists or the alt right, by the centre and centre left who accept that focus too. I know that experience as one who lives on Terf island and who lives under the shadow of people on both sides using worries of transgender child abusers and transgender to attack the transgender community as a whole. Outside of that, I've seen his sort of focus on bad actors be used to demonise every movement in my lifetime that has had angry/violent people in it and to try and deligitimise any attempt at social change, with quite a degree of success at least here.

Or maybe I'm just an extremist who can't accept the totally sincere national focus on bad actors. Yeah, Yam, you've made me see how rotten I am. Thank you ever so much.
 
Last edited:
Of course, Yam, you truly are a hero who only has the best in mind for the black and Jewish communities when you use issues that harm them in order to defend your fave show.
I pointed out how even black people who pointed out problems (Alice Walker) were told to shut up and be quiet, as well as how trolls like requireshate inflicted pain while others ignored it because they didn't want to be seen as oppressors/silencing poc. That you got murderous when I pointed these out implies you'd really rather not think about this at all.

Those are fair regardless of how much you want to pretend otherwise.

There are countless ways to fix the racism plot line while having Adam as an abuser. That your complaints boil down to Adam alone shows that yes you are apologizing for an abuser/denying those guys exist in movements
 
Last edited:
That's also a good way to examine how horrid systematic racism is when it comes to calls for moderation. Because this is what it results in, violence being used to drive moderation into the background as it is shown to be ineffective and less militant members murdered. If you're crushing peaceful calls and/or denying them the rights they call for, then if you've got a resultant rise in extremism it be like:

Here's something I'd like to add in regards to my previous post. In shows, you sometimes have plots where a major person in a cast group gets replaced by a more extreme one or is made more extreme by an event.
 
Last edited:
Don't be a baby. I like RWBY but agree that it's flawed. The issue is more "there are things to criticize, Adam being a bad guy and a monster isn't one of them."

Doesn't help that most of the criticism made against it is shallow/in bad faith (Leila being an idealogue who refuses to consider that she might be wrong is a common thread throughout everything she touches even if she makes smart points).
You admit it's flawed, and yet refuse to allow criticism. You insist that Adam's handling isn't an issue because "there was a character in The Expanse like Adam, so that means he was handled properly", completely ignoring the reasons why people say he's mishandled and characterize all criticism as rape apologists who want Blake to take him back, and will go so far as to bash IRL minority rights groups to justify his handling.

Leila having a very weird way of viewing and looking at media does not make all criticism of RWBY insincere. I don't agree with almost anything she says or even her preferences of consuming media, but I'm not gonna bash all criticism for how she does it. You generalize all criticism as jerks who want to make you feel bad for liking this show, when all they're doing is explaining why THEY can't enjoy it like you can.

I've wasted almost a decade of my life on RWBY, and I absolutely loathe it, but not because I'm a big jerk who likes to put people down. I loathe it because every single time I think about it, I get myself twisted into knots over how incoherent it is - terrible dialogue, no interest in consistency, writers that are so full of themselves that they think all the time they've put into arguing and detailing characters in their production process immediately translates into audience investment for their final product. These are the reasons I hate it, not because I come predisposed to bashing people for enjoying stuff that sucks this much.
 
Last edited:
You admit it's flawed, and yet refuse to allow criticism. You insist that Adam's handling isn't an issue because "there was a character in The Expanse like Adam, so that means he was handled properly", completely ignoring the reasons why people say he's mishandled and characterize all criticism as rape apologists who want Blake to take him back, and will go so far as to bash IRL minority rights groups to justify his handling.

Leila having a very weird way of viewing and looking at media does not make all criticism of RWBY insincere. I don't agree with almost anything she says or even her preferences of consuming media, but I'm not gonna bash all criticism for how she does it. You generalize all criticism as jerks who want to make you feel bad for liking this show, when all they're doing is explaining why THEY can't enjoy it like you can.

No my point is "Adam's handling is mostly fine because people like actually infest revolutionary movements" as well as "there are other ways to fix it. That y'all focus on Adam alone implies that's your main issue rather than the lack of nuance."

The Black Panthers DID have a problem with sexism and corruption, and people like unicorn if war making the comparison with the panthers means they're a fair target

And the sheer amount of bile you throw at it shows you kinda do enjoy putting down those who like it. It's like those wankers who bash the OT purely because they think it makes them cultured or grown up.
 
Last edited:
It is like you're clinically incapable of actually reading what people have argued:

That we are focusing on Adam, because he was the first and largest focus of the show.

Should I now go, 'uuuuhhh, but there's actually a high rate of lesbian domestic abuse and so Ilia's belligerence to Blake out of her jealousy for being with Adam isn't bad at all despite her being the first lesbian rep of the show and this distracting from her different experiences as a racial minority than Blake and so trying to rewrite her to be a more nuanced person is now distracting from this very real issue'?
 
No my point is "Adam's handling is mostly fine because people like actually infest revolutionary movements" as well as "there are other ways to fix it.
Reality is not an excuse for fiction. Especially not when your excuse is "bad people exist in real life, therefore do not criticise the handling of bad people in fiction".

You sound like the guys who justify the killing of black people by cops with "Well, it's not like they were law-abiding citizens". As if people deserve to die for being incapable of surviving by towing the line of systemic oppression. Would you also say the people of Flevance deserved to die for taking up arms against the World Government?


...Holy crap, I just brought up something from One Piece as an example citation for systemic problems. WHY IS THIS MANGA SO GOOD?!?!
 
Last edited:
While we're at it, can I just say I find RWBY's LGBT rep not only pretty lacking in terms of scale and depth compared to other shows, but also way less intriguing on a character level?
 
While we're at it, can I just say I find RWBY's LGBT rep not only pretty lacking in terms of scale and depth compared to other shows, but also way less intriguing on a character level?
"How dare you criticize Blake being an abusive friend/partner to Yang by constantly running off from her and ignoring Yang's problems to stew in her own! Don't you understand just how much Adam hurt her by being a straight guy?!"
 
Last edited:
Back
Top