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The Leila Hann Let's Watch Spoiler Thread: Seriously, Stop Spoiling Stuff

Do the people who say that matter, Yam? There are people who say all sorts of things on the web and who might have places where they might gather together. But in the wider cultural sphere, people who think that are are a fringe. Substantially more people are in the "watched Black Panther and my support for black rights is limited to that" group. In regards to bad actors, we're not at the point where Black Lives Matters in itself is entirely uncontroversial. I'd say that movements like it have the much bigger issue that lots of people want to take bad actors and use them to taint everyone connected to them. The people of those movements outside meaningless online bubbles like this tend to care plenty about bad actors and do what they can about them, though there's limits on what can be done about them and people have their biases that can cause misfortune. So feeling like "watch out for bad actors" doesn't feel like something that needs more media to promote it. The efforts to focus on those bad actors in a way that takes over discussion of issues and taints the impression of any cause they're connected to or even meaningful activism as a whole seems like a much bigger issue.
 
Greener223224 said:
I don't believe you. Prove it.
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His reddit is consistently anti Trump, and he's never expressed support for him in his videos. In his videos about the civil war he came down HARD on the confederacy for being racist slaveowners. Devon Tracy and MauLer he is not.

Though I don't get why you refused to believe me.
 
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How does any of that contradict the idea of someone being a clickbaiter? I'm speaking in general. A person standing against bad things doesn't mean they can't also be a clickbaiter.
 
The only thing about it that could be said to be "clickbait" is that it has amusing historical jokes or exaggerates things for comic effect. I don't consider that clickbait.
 
Bernkastel said:
Do the people who say that matter, Yam? There are people who say all sorts of things on the web and who might have places where they might gather together. But in the wider cultural sphere, people who think that are are a fringe. Substantially more people are in the "watched Black Panther and my support for black rights is limited to that" group. In regards to bad actors, we're not at the point where Black Lives Matters in itself is entirely uncontroversial. I'd say that movements like it have the much bigger issue that lots of people want to take bad actors and use them to taint everyone connected to them. The people of those movements outside meaningless online bubbles like this tend to care plenty about bad actors and do what they can about them, though there's limits on what can be done about them and people have their biases that can cause misfortune. So feeling like "watch out for bad actors" doesn't feel like something that needs more media to promote it. The efforts to focus on those bad actors in a way that takes over discussion of issues and taints the impression of any cause they're connected to or even meaningful activism as a whole seems like a much bigger issue.
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In some ways they do. Cleaver, Newton and Mugabe all did harm to their movement and others because people didn't want to address it and got violent when criticism was made no matter how fair it was. Alice Walker talked about misogyny in the Black Community and was basically told to shut up and be quiet because it was "hurting the black community" to call attention to the problem even if it was real.

It deserves less focus than the alt righters who ignore the issue because it would make them upset or because they like being racist but it still can't be ignored.
 
LordYam said:
In some ways they do. Cleaver, Newton and Mugabe all did harm to their movement and others because people didn't want to address it and got violent when criticism was made no matter how fair it was. Alice Walker talked about misogyny in the Black Community and was basically told to shut up and be quiet because it was "hurting the black community" to call attention to the problem even if it was real.

It deserves less focus than the alt righters who ignore the issue because it would make them upset or because they like being racist but it still can't be ignored.
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Again, it's not being ignored. Yeah, there's defensiveness, because problems in minority groups often tend to be used to tar every member of that minority and their supporters. There are issues that are worth keeping in mind, yes, but I feel like you're focused on them to an extreme degree, to one you're defending material that does leans into really bad ideas. Having an MLK type character whose a member of a former slave race and whose character is blended in with Hitler as an antagonist in a story should be something that should be uncontroversial to object to, but you're so worried about people ignoring bad actors that you're defending material that shits on far more than those bad actors. There is not anything close to the neo-sapien leader in real life in terms of power, beyond the evil propaganda version of Obama that existed in the heads of the US right.

I can't talk about Mugabe or the others you've mentioned, as I avoid online chatter and don't have enough awareness of certain things. All I can say is that British attitudes towards Zimbabwe and Mugabe do have a tinge of "you know how dysfunctional those Africans are" thanks to British racism and I'm doubtful that a non Mugabe leader would have resulted in different attitudes here, unless they went beyond avoiding Mugabe cronyism and just did nothing meaningful about white privilege at all. Maybe even with that, they'd still be shat on here just because, thanks to the racism I mentioned before.

Edit: I feel that the harm caused by bad actors comes far more from them existing and how their actions are successfully used by powerful bad actors to use those genuine problems to taint the view on ever part of a group or movement. I'll admit that I have a huge bias on this topic as a trans person in the UK. The hunt for bad actors who are trans and how it affects how my countrymen view me is a shadow over my existence.

Edit 2: Also, I'm honestly far more concerned about the sort of people who have worldviews in the "Hey, there are people in minorities groups who could be just as bad as the actual historic oppressors or current ones", if simply because "we're all bad" defenses of issues are another looming shadow that I wish would be destroyed and because I feel that actual crimes by the powerful and majorities are ignored enough already before any focusing on bad actors on the victim side and thinking about how they can do the same things.
 
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LordYam said:
I get that, but refusing to acknowledge bad actors at all can be dangerous and create problems further down the road. Huey Newton was a domestic abuser and Eldridge Cleaver was a serial rapist. Both had their crimes swept under the rug because they did SUCH good for the movement (David Horowitz also directly credits the fact that a friend was murdered after she pointed out corruption as the thing that caused him to leave the far left. That Horowitz is a piece of crap who went in the other direction doesn't change that corruption in the Black Panthers WAS a problem; hell if the corruption had been addressed he might not have gone to the other extreme).

Robert Mugabe's crimes were ignored because of how bad Ian Smith had been....and Mugabe ended up utterly wrecking Zimbabwe whereas if they'd acknowledged it maybe it could have been stopped.

Again, there are people who unironically say Killmonger was the good guy and that him being a violent lunatic is racist.
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You have almost no grasp of Mugabe's rise.

It uh... wasn't because the colonists just felt too darn guilty to stop him and there wasn't a way to 'stop' him that wouldn't involve, you know, the same stupid shit the west keeps doing in the middle east and africa to almost certainly the same result. Mugabe was, indeed, incarcerated at times and spent much of his life in exile. When he returned he was not exactly welcomed with open arms, leading a rebellion and all.

Killmonger is the best marvel villain because, unlike most villains in the films, he has a point. He is RIGHT when he sees the ills of the world. And, importantly, he isn't beaten by a white hero and his defeat isn't a return the the status quo, but his radical views prompt t'challa out of his complacency and gets hi to actively make the world a better place instead of ignoring it. And the movie makes it VERY clear where is stands in regards to Killmonger's politics and what T'challa should do.
 
LordYam said:
Or Vladimir Lenin being an authoritarian lunatic even if he opposed the tsar (who was also authoritarian)
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I would describe him as at best a zealot who didn't really understand the thing he was zealous about, like most people going off on crusades.
LordYam said:
Demanding that revolutions always be portrayed as pure and noble is rather naive and absolutist (just like saying ACAB; while the system is flawed it ignores that a.) Cops act based on what society wants and b.) That the alternative of neighborhood watches would be even more unaccountable and destructive).
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Cops who try to hold other cops to account for abuses of power get drummed out of their departments while ones who get sued for the abuse have to move to a different department to keep their jobs while the taxpayers pay to cover the damages in the US. The systems make bastards in the US, and their departments are involved in making movies and shows that show cops as heroes who are almost always right save a few bad apples in much the same way as the military does.

When you keep pulling bad apples and most are thrown back into the barrel, you start wanting to get a new barrel.
LordYam said:
And for all that RWBY is a deeply flawed show on the racism front that doesn't change that a lot of the anger directed at Adam Taurus's portrayal was a refusal to even entertain the idea that bad actors exist in those kind of movements.
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Adam wasn't the focus of that plotline, Blake is. Though showing the revolution positively then showing that even good causes can get dirty when desperate or allow in monsters thinking that it's not as important as stopping the focus of the cause while ignoring the fact that those who fight oppression while being willing to oppress others are more likely to betray the cause to be on the side of the boot instead of focusing on getting rid of the boot, or would try to take the boot for themselves the moment they get the chance.
LordYam said:
Again, there are people who unironically say Killmonger was the good guy and that him being a violent lunatic is racist.
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Killmonger did nothing that he wasn't trained to do by the people he hated beyond point his rage back at them. The only useful thing the CIA guy did in that movie was make sure that the guy they trained didn't send planes into buildings this time considering the biggest case of doing that biting them in the ass. And be used to give exposition to.
Bernkastel said:
So feeling like "watch out for bad actors" doesn't feel like something that needs more media to promote it.
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Or at least doesn't need it focused on until after you convince the audience of the need of the movement to succeed. Then you get into making sure it gets done the right way to avoid more messes that need follow up movements to clean up.
Bernkastel said:
Having an MLK type character whose a member of a former slave race and whose character is blended in with Hitler as an antagonist in a story
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He's not supposed to be an MLK type character, but the show doesn't give enough information to show that he was an ambitious Mugabe with good PR until deeper in, which makes people who judge shows on how they start see it like that.
Greener223224 said:
I find them to be boring, samey, and make me question the historicity of what's being said. I could go on TVTropes and get a better writeup on these topics. I can't say that about KingsandGenerals.
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How do you define clickbait, for the sake of if it fits your definition without you checking for yourself?
 
I meant to put Malcolm X type or Magneto type, but the former's name escaped me, I didn't think about the later and it's late enough that I'm going "Huh. Oh, I guess I wrote that". That's embarrassing. Sorry about that. Anyway, yeah, MLK obviously doesn't match the antagonist.
 
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stratigo said:
You have almost no grasp of Mugabe's rise.

It uh... wasn't because the colonists just felt too darn guilty to stop him and there wasn't a way to 'stop' him that wouldn't involve, you know, the same stupid shit the west keeps doing in the middle east and africa to almost certainly the same result. Mugabe was, indeed, incarcerated at times and spent much of his life in exile. When he returned he was not exactly welcomed with open arms, leading a rebellion and all.

Killmonger is the best marvel villain because, unlike most villains in the films, he has a point. He is RIGHT when he sees the ills of the world. And, importantly, he isn't beaten by a white hero and his defeat isn't a return the the status quo, but his radical views prompt t'challa out of his complacency and gets hi to actively make the world a better place instead of ignoring it. And the movie makes it VERY clear where is stands in regards to Killmonger's politics and what T'challa should do.
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I was referring to 1999 South Africa (which refused to put pressure on Mugabe when asked to do so). When Mugabe initiated the Gurukurundi the West went out of it's way to avoid commenting on the issue.

You're right about Killmonger. There are those who honestly think T'Challa should have just let him carry out his revolution.
 
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LordYam said:
I was referring to 1999 South Africa (which refused to put pressure on Mugabe when asked to do so). When Mugabe initiated the Gurukurundi the West went out of it's way to avoid commenting on the issue.

You're right about Killmonger. There are those who honestly think T'Challa should have just let him carry out his revolution.
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South Africa's ability to do anything to Mugabe is... limited unless you suggest that south africa should have invaded Zimbabwe some how.

And the west did no such thing. The west largely ignores when on ethnicity in africa massacres another because they set up artificial boundaries and enflamed ethnic issues for decades.

I mean Mugabe in fact has an outsized focus compared the the majority of african dictators because he happened to hold to some communist rhetoric. Mugabe was not, sadly, at all unique. But he is better known and had much more comment from western sources because of communism.
 
GuestLurker said:
I would describe him as at best a zealot who didn't really understand the thing he was zealous about, like most people going off on crusades.

Cops who try to hold other cops to account for abuses of power get drummed out of their departments while ones who get sued for the abuse have to move to a different department to keep their jobs while the taxpayers pay to cover the damages in the US. The systems make bastards in the US, and their departments are involved in making movies and shows that show cops as heroes who are almost always right save a few bad apples in much the same way as the military does.

When you keep pulling bad apples and most are thrown back into the barrel, you start wanting to get a new barrel.

Adam wasn't the focus of that plotline, Blake is. Though showing the revolution positively then showing that even good causes can get dirty when desperate or allow in monsters thinking that it's not as important as stopping the focus of the cause while ignoring the fact that those who fight oppression while being willing to oppress others are more likely to betray the cause to be on the side of the boot instead of focusing on getting rid of the boot, or would try to take the boot for themselves the moment they get the chance.

Killmonger did nothing that he wasn't trained to do by the people he hated beyond point his rage back at them. The only useful thing the CIA guy did in that movie was make sure that the guy they trained didn't send planes into buildings this time considering the biggest case of doing that biting them in the ass. And be used to give exposition to.

Or at least doesn't need it focused on until after you convince the audience of the need of the movement to succeed. Then you get into making sure it gets done the right way to avoid more messes that need follow up movements to clean up.

He's not supposed to be an MLK type character, but the show doesn't give enough information to show that he was an ambitious Mugabe with good PR until deeper in, which makes people who judge shows on how they start see it like that.

How do you define clickbait, for the sake of if it fits your definition without you checking for yourself?
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1.) I'll have to disagree on the whole communism thing, but I'd rather not start a derail. Suffice to say it I think Communist ELEMENTS can work but that outside of small scale communities I don't see it working on a large scale.

2.) The problem with the police is a large part of it is that society either doesn't care or wants violent unaccountable racists. I watched West of Memphis (about the West Memphis Three case) and commented to my father that the sheriff (who was basically every corrupt southern hick stereotype from the movies) didn't impress me. Dad was "well true, but who hired detective Gitchell?" If there was more public pressure actual reform might be possible.

The other issue I have is that no matter what society you have there are always going to be people who refuse to follow the rules, and not all of them are going to respond to asking nicely or social programs. Sometimes force IS needed, and while Police standards are abysmal they keep SOME of the worst out (George Zimmerman was rejected by the Florida PD). Neighborhood watches (which is pretty much would exist if you get rid of organized law enforcement) have even lower standards and will accept any idiot who wants to look like a badass (again, George Zimmerman).

In short, the police kinda suck but they're still better than the alternative (neighborhood watches).

3.) The discussion thread had an interesting discussion about it; basically they concluded that the writers of RWBY were more naive about race issues back in 2013-2014. It took Trump winning and the sheer amount of fuckery for the alt right for them to realize that no racists won't just stop being racists because you ask them and that the problem is much more severe (it's why Weiss overcomes it unrealistically quickly; it was essentially a very special episode right when those stopped being taken seriously.)

Lucifer did a pretty good exploration of police racism in the final few seasons incidentally. Basically in one episode Amenadiel bonds with a young Black kid. The kid's a dealer, but is fundamentally a decent person trapped in a bad situation. The kid winds up a suspect in the murder and the officers sent to arrest him needlessly brutalize him in the process; Amenadiel only avoids being shot because his cop friend arrives and intervenes.

Two seasons later Amenadiel encounters one of the cops (James Reiben) again, and Reiben has in fact been promoted despite Dan filing a complaint against him; Reiben demonstrates that he hasn't gotten better AND that he's actually rather incompetent as a detective by ignoring evidence. He tells Chloe Decker (The main cop on the show) about it and Chloe is genuinely befuddled, since she thinks the system works (and as such it doesn't really compute that the guy who needlessly brutalized an innocent teen got a slap on the wrist/promotion). Reiben has a moment that seems like he's genuinely sorry.....only for him to double down and reveal he's going after ANOTHER innocent, with Amenadiel having to risk his life to stop Reiben from shooting her.

Chloe is prompted to do research and discovers that Reiben and dozens of other officers essentially had their crimes swept under the rug by police, and that hundreds of complaints were ignored. Chloe bitterly admits to Amenadiel that she was naive about the system and decides to rejoin the force to help clean it up.
 
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Just a bit of a side track here but it is important to remember that the main reason Black Panther the movie can get away with the whole Killmonger Had A Point angle constantly being brought up despite being a horrifically omnicidal race supremacist is because the greater point of Wakanda Should Be More Involved In The World was already introduced beforehand with Nakia - who, it should be noted, the movie ultimately takes the side of in the approach Wakanda should take in assisting the african diaspora, not Killmonger - and her stance is one T'challa was clearly giving serious consideration towards even before Killmonger showed up. Killmonger may have been the final push T'Challa needed to finally go that route, but it is not because he agreed with Erik's logic or reasoning, but because he was the ultimate definitive proof that Wakanda's obsession with keeping their secrets isolated and hidden for their own protection brings actual, tangible harm to innocent people caught in the crossfire through no fault of their own and T'Challa is fundamentally too good a person to let that system continue.
 
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So... It seems I missed a lot...
Anyone got any good requests like say "a nightmare on elm street" (cuz I just watched it, holds up rather well) or maybe we can commission "Elden Ring" (that one could be a bit difficult tho)

Edit: just realized that no one commissioned the 03 FMA series... Leila will be lost when she watches the finale with zero context
 
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LordYam said:
In short, the police kinda suck but they're still better than the alternative (neighborhood watches).
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That does not mean they do not need deep reforms and review. Places where they have done full reforms save money and end up having less crime.
LordYam said:
3.)
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Yes, I saw it.
Wateryblue said:
So... It seems I missed a lot...
Anyone got any good requests like say "a nightmare on elm street" (cuz I just watched it, holds up rather well) or maybe we can commission "Elden Ring" (that one could be a bit difficult tho)

Edit: just realized that no one commissioned the 03 FMA series... Leila will be lost when she watches the finale with zero context
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Has anyone made a request for Arcane yet?
krinsbez said:
...

....

WTF?

As if I didn't already regret commishing this.
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What happened now?
 
Wateryblue said:
Anyone got any good requests like say "a nightmare on elm street" (cuz I just watched it, holds up rather well) or maybe we can commission "Elden Ring" (that one could be a bit difficult tho)
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The Shield.

Vic Mackey and Shane Vendrell are two of the most monstrous villain protagonists I've ever seen. The series does its best to make absolutely certain that viewers understand that, from the very first episode, the Farmington Strike Team aren't "tough cops that bend the rules to get things done," or "may not be politically correct but are still good deep down," but terrible people doing terrible things and getting away with it all for so long for a variety of reasons that are explicitly shown on-screen. The series' second working title (after "The Barn") was "Rampart" for good reason. (Many unmarked spoilers in the interview.)

The Shield creator Shawn Ryan said:
"Ultimately, we spent seven seasons being brutally honest about the show and our characters, and I think what worked about that finale is that we built in a premise of an original sin that the strike team had committed — the murder of Terry Crowley — and we spent seven seasons milking that. Combined with the money train robbery in season 2 and various betrayals along the way, we took these guys who were super tight and felt that they were urban cowboys and we exposed the rotten core at the center of that. We went to a very dark and honest place that people appreciated after seven seasons…

...A lot of shows had to preserve a good feeling about their show in the finale. John Landgraf, who had taken on at FX early on in the run of the show, really pushed me before the [final] season began to think big terms. I had never thought of it this way, but he really thought The Shield was a Shakespearean tragedy. He encouraged me to think about how plays like Hamlet and Macbeth ultimately played out."
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Unfortunately, The Shield is also 88 "TV-sized" episodes (7 seasons of 10-15 eps each), so it's almost three times longer than FMAB was. Maybe the first season of Fargo 2014 would be better? That one tells a complete story in only 10 TV-sized episodes.

As for videogame commissions, I've been playing Grim Dawn for the last few days and I think it's a setting that Leila would like, but I have no idea how she feels about Diablo-style gameplay. It can get really boring if you're just doing single-player instead of co-op with friends. (That's the exact reason why I dropped both Borderlands 1 and 2 so early.)
 
Wateryblue said:
Edit: just realized that no one commissioned the 03 FMA series... Leila will be lost when she watches the finale with zero context
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That's actually the entire point, yes. Thank you for being the latest person to point it out.

...I genuinely think it will be way more interesting this way.
 
Wateryblue said:
So... It seems I missed a lot...
Anyone got any good requests like say "a nightmare on elm street" (cuz I just watched it, holds up rather well) or maybe we can commission "Elden Ring" (that one could be a bit difficult tho)

Edit: just realized that no one commissioned the 03 FMA series... Leila will be lost when she watches the finale with zero context
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For a while now I've had the idea to commission at least the first three episodes of Moribito. I gave her a choice between that and Yona of the Dawn when I commissioned that way back in the early days of the thread, but Yona was easily available on Crunchyroll and Moribito wasn't.

Barring that, I kind of want to get her to watch some more GITS:SAC, maybe do the first few episodes of the actual story arc.

There's lots of things that would be interesting to get her to take a look at, but in general, I lean towards getting to look at stuff that's good, and avoiding most shounen because we've already hit critical mass with all the standard shounen tropes between RWBY and JJBA... and frankly, shounen dominates too much of the discussion of anime in the anglosphere. I also tend towards wanting to draw attention to lesser-known stuff.
 
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