The Kings of Men: Lord of the Rings/Warhammer Fantasy CK II Quest

Why are you acting like we would need to do all the work? The Gael can self-policy mutation and corruption themselves as well. They have sane Truthseers for that.
That would work if most ideas didn't include breaking them up in small groups and integrating them in our culture.
That runs directly against the idea of them self-policing, because in those plans we want them to follow our laws, which are propably against child-killing.

It's a workable idea but doesn't combine well with most of the other ideas in the thread.
 
That's 40k. A Warhammer Fantasy beastman comes with an instinctive need to destroy everything beautiful and civilised and shit on its remains.

They are worse than LotR orcs. Those at least have a choice in the matter.
Those be beastmen, I was talking about general mutants.

Also Orks don't have a choice in the matter, made from destruction and hate everything in existence while also being directly bound to Melkor's Fea did for that I'm afraid.

Yes I know I am late to the party.

Had to get ma nomnoms :D
 
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I really don't get this whole "spread the gaels in very small groups across the land"-plans. I agree on spreading them out so they don't just make a giant conclave or something, but especially the +200 dudes large groups is being too strict.
 
Okay.
We are more resistant.Not immune.
Dunedain mutants will be a thing.

So, what is your opinion on the correct course to take?i am not baiting you.Just wanting to know.

Not integrating the Gael in a major fashion until we have the ability to cure mutation. We know it isn't impossible for us since the Guldur draught can do it, and we have some outright superhuman minds that could help us find a way.

The worst case would be integrating the Gael, having to kill their mutant children, loosing the Valars Gift over said killing since it runs directly counter to their tenets of faith and then having our entire population be vulnerable to mutation and corruption.

Why are you acting like we would need to do all the work? The Gael can self-policy mutation and corruption themselves as well. They have sane Truthseers for that.

If we let them do that while part of our nation that is essentially the same as doing it ourselves. The people would be horrified that we are letting foreign witch-sorcerors sacrifice children under our authority.
 
In general we can as players take a lesson from the failures of known integration policys.

We dont want gael only enclaves so we need to engineer a situation where in population mixing is advantageous.

Part of that is work and belonging to an In-group during a daily activity, part is after work parties/community events. Part is organized schooling and education.

And part is striking a balance in religious tolerance.

Eru is very Tolerant.
Danu is also very Tolerant.

The people who worship them, less so, however balances are not impossible.

We have a Sky Father, they an Earth Mother. The two need never meet in theological conflict.

The issues will come about ten to twenty years in, when people start really noticing the "not aging like us part" meeting the challenge of integration will require something that Eru hasn't been big on. Some form of an organised Priesthood to counsel and answer questions.

So we might want to ask for a palantir chat with Manwë Súlimo (Mânawenûz Valahîru) about setting something like that up, he after all is the closest person we can ask about this stuff. And something of an authority on the mindset of Our Ineffable Lord.
 
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In general we can as players take a lesson from the failures of known integration policys.

We dont want gael only enclaves so we need to engineer a situation where in population mixing is advantageous.

Part of that is work and belonging to an In-group during a daily activity, part is after work parties/community events. Part is organized schooling and education.

And part is striking a balance in religious tolerance.

Eru is very Tolerant.
Danu is also very Tolerant.

The people who worship them, less so, however balances are not impossible.

We have a Sky Father, they an Earth Mother. The two need never meet in theological conflict.

The issues will come about ten to twenty years in, when people start really noticing the "not aging like us part" meeting the challenge of integration will require something that Eru hasn't been big on. Some form of an organised Priesthood to counsel and answer questions.

So we might want to ask for a palantir chat with Manwë Súlimo (Mânawenûz Valahîru) about setting something like that up, he after all is the closest person we can ask about this stuff. And something of an authority on the mindset of Our Ineffable Lord.
The ingroup thing is a very good point.Let our people work and fight alongside them, support the natural comeradeship small groups of men in hard and/or dangerous situations can develop....
And yes, yes...we have to talk to the "earthly" representative or the Creator and hope the Archangel Michael-who-is-like-god shall answer our pleas.
 
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So, we can not integrate the gael because of possible warp-taint and the only way of stopping possible warp-taint is extending the gift of men and the gift of the Valar to the Gael... which can only happen if we integrate them...circulus vitiosus achieved.
You have to distinguish cultural integration from completely spreading the gift of the valar.The former could take as few as two generations, though in this case I think it will take longer.

The second will take centuries, if not millennia, if it happens at all.
 
You have to distinguish cultural integration from completely spreading the gift of the valar.The former could take as few as two generations, though in this case I think it will take longer.

The second will take centuries, if not millennia, if it happens at all.
Er...cultural inegration and intermarriage=gift of the Valar in the children
interethnic children without certain moral standards=Gift of Eru.

What do you even mean with "If ever?"
 
Amongst Gael population there will be cases where beastmen are born instead of humans, same with mutants and small number of potential wizards.
Wizards we can deal with if we let Truthsayers work in our land and later by making our own magic institution.
Mutants we can try to help and prevent from dieing but we need to know about them and why locals want to kill them.
Beastmen are lost cause, at least for now (it may change even if I don't see it), and we need to know how to deal with those.

We essentially need to learn more before allowing any big groups to settle in our lands. As for leaving them in beastmen controlled land, we can easily just kill bestmen together and then talk about who get what land.
 
Amongst Gael population there will be cases where beastmen are born instead of humans, same with mutants and small number of potential wizards.
Wizards we can deal with if we let Truthsayers work in our land and later by making our own magic institution.
Mutants we can try to help and prevent from dieing but we need to know about them and why locals want to kill them.
Beastmen are lost cause, at least for now (it may change even if I don't see it), and we need to know how to deal with those.

We essentially need to learn more before allowing any big groups to settle in our lands. As for leaving them in beastmen controlled land, we can easily just kill bestmen together and then talk about who get what land.

It seems that the Fimir are the main problem instead of the beastmen. And also we are in no shape to take offensive action against the Fimir yet, even a defensive campaign would be extremely difficult. We need at least a century to be able to fight them.

Also, we don't have much time to learn more. Thanks to my series reward earlier on, our truthsayers won't be the bad ones so I think we are relatively safe on the magic front.

What are everyone's thoughts on beastmen born to Gaels?
 
Amongst Gael population there will be cases where beastmen are born instead of humans, same with mutants and small number of potential wizards.
Wizards we can deal with if we let Truthsayers work in our land and later by making our own magic institution.
Mutants we can try to help and prevent from dieing but we need to know about them and why locals want to kill them.
Beastmen are lost cause, at least for now (it may change even if I don't see it), and we need to know how to deal with those.

We essentially need to learn more before allowing any big groups to settle in our lands. As for leaving them in beastmen controlled land, we can easily just kill bestmen together and then talk about who get what land.
hUH:
The sad truth is we will need imigration to become anything more than a interesting minor footnote in albionese history.I can spell it out for you.If we assume a population growth of "Doubling each 75 years- which is very, very optimistic, since it is about the industrial societies growth rate - and no losses whatsoever....
45000 now
in 75 years , 90 000
in 150 years, 180 000
in 225 years , 360 000
in 300 years , 720 000 .
In 375 years , 1.440 , 000
if that is acceptable to you..fine.But remember, we are most probably NOT getting that rate of growth.
And we have lots of foes.
 
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hUH:
The sad truth is we will need imigration to become anything more than a interseting minor footnote in albionese history.I can spell it out for you.If we assume a populatin grow of "Doubling each 75 years- which is very, very optimistic- and no losses whatsoever....
45000 now
in 75 years , 90 000
in 150 years, 180 000
in 225 years , 360 000
in 300 years , 720 000 .
In 375 years , 1.440 , 000
if that is acceptable to you..fine.But remember, we are most probably NOT getting that rate of growth.
And we have lots of foes.

Exactly. This is also why the OTL Dunedain realms in exile had a lot of non-Numenoreans in them - there simply aren't enough Dunedain to go around.

Oh and btw we are expecting another major war in the next century or two. The war against the Fimir may be on par with the War of the Last Alliance OTL in terms of significance, the recent war was only a minor skirmish in the grand scheme of events.
 
Exactly. This is also why the OTL Dunedain realms in exile had a lot of non-Numenoreans in them - there simply aren't enough Dunedain to go around.

Oh and btw we are expecting another major war in the next century or two. The war against the Fimir may be on par with the War of the Last Alliance OTL in terms of significance, the recent war was only a minor skirmish in the grand scheme of events.
Without the gaels as firm allies we can TRUST we are out on a very thin limb.
Can someone try to get our actual population growth rate?
 
It seems that the Fimir are the main problem instead of the beastmen. And also we are in no shape to take offensive action against the Fimir yet, even a defensive campaign would be extremely difficult. We need at least a century to be able to fight them.

Also, we don't have much time to learn more. Thanks to my series reward earlier on, our truthsayers won't be the bad ones so I think we are relatively safe on the magic front.

What are everyone's thoughts on beastmen born to Gaels?
Fimir are external problem not one inherent with local human population.

hUH:
The sad truth is we will need imigration to become anything more than a interesting minor footnote in albionese history.I can spell it out for you.If we assume a population growth of "Doubling each 75 years- which is very, very optimistic, since it is about the industrial societies growth rate - and no losses whatsoever....
45000 now
in 75 years , 90 000
in 150 years, 180 000
in 225 years , 360 000
in 300 years , 720 000 .
In 375 years , 1.440 , 000
if that is acceptable to you..fine.But remember, we are most probably NOT getting that rate of growth.
And we have lots of foes.

We can't afford taking serious amount of locals without gathering vital information about them.
 
Analysis: Unusual Weapons of war - Fire
Analysis: Unusual Weapons of war - Fire

Fire is a weapon that we already use to some extent via the use of incendiaries, however there are more ways of using it than our current arsenal.

1. Flaming arrows

Flaming arrows can be made quite easily - just wrap a rag behind the tip of the arrow (so that the arrow can still kill people by itself) and light it on fire. The ease of construction and cheapness of this weapon means that it could be used on a very large scale, one of the rare occurrences in this series of analysis where this is the case. This weapon is best used against enemy fortifications, particularly those made of wood, as with a volley of fire arrows it is more than likely that such fortifications would burn down. The same goes for siege engines, which are primarily made of wood. Another effective use is as a psychological weapon; after all being set on fire is a rather nasty way to go. Against enemies who are less brave or suicidal, fire arrows can be extremely terrifying. Furthermore, flaming arrows can be used to adjust the aiming of arrows, sort of like how we use tracer rounds in modern times.

However, flaming arrows also have some disadvantages. Visibility may be less desirable if one is going for stealth attacks, and on rainy days the tactic won't work either. Furthermore, fire may actually cauterise a wound if put out, preventing infection.

2. Molotov cocktails (incendiary grenade)

Since we currently do not have petrol, we would fill our Molotov Cocktails with other forms of naptha (incendiaries), which could be as easily made as heating coal to form coal tar. We definitely have these as we already have incendiaries, but for the Cocktails we could use far safer mixtures compared to our incendiary globes, as they could only be ignited with a fire. Even alcohol itself could work if at high enough concentrations. A rag soaked with alcohol is then placed at at the bottleneck, and to set the mixture on fire just set fire to the rag, which would in turn ignite the entire mixture.

The advantage of this weapon is that it is very simple to produce and very simple to use - just fill some glass bottles with oil/alcohol/flammable liquid and place rag on top, then set it on fire and throw it at enemy. This means that it could be used by our regular infantry if they have reliable matches, they could carry 1-2 with them during battles without the risk of them spontaneously igniting. While they are far weaker than grenades, they are also far safer. The cocktail could also be dropped from the air or loaded onto catapults.

The downside compared to incendiary globes is that it has a slightly smaller area of effect, but due to its ease of manufacture and comparative safety, it is a far more wieldy weapon to use.

3. Flamethrower

Flamethrowers already existed in ancient times, and were mainly mounted on ships. They are a terrifying weapon as anyone unlucky enough to be in front of them would be consumed in flames before you can blink, and it is in most cases unsurvivable due to the area of body burnt. Flamethrowers are also very good at reducing wooden fortifications or enemy ships, as the fortifications or vessels would burn reliably when faced with such a weapon.

However, it also has many disadvantages. The weapon is very unwieldy compared to the other two described above and cannot be easily used on the move. Furthermore, it also does not have a very long range and is extremely costly in terms of fuel used, something to consider when we do not have a large fuel supply. The wind is also a huge factor, after all there have been historical cases where flamethrowers literally backfired on their owners. These factors mean that while flamethrowers are still widely used, they are less commonly seen than the other incendiary weapons.

4. Smoke

This is more of a tactic than a weapon, but it could be used against an enemy who is uphill. As hot air is lighter than cold air, smoke particles tend to drift upwards as a result of convection cycles. If we find ourselves on the lower ground, we could light huge bonfires and perhaps smoke the enemy. This could be used as a delaying tactic when being pursued, or to conceal one's forces. In the best scenarios, it could cause the enemy discomfort or even choke them depending on how intense the smoke is.


755 words
@DragonParadox

3rd and final analysis of 'unusual weapons' series
 
Fimir are external problem not one inherent with local human population.

What I meant was the Fimir were what the Gaels were fleeing from. Even if we kill the beastmen lurking in the forests, there would still be refugees.



We can't afford taking serious amount of locals without gathering vital information about them.

Good point, thats why we should take in the refugees first and see what they are like. We outnumber them as we have 40k people while their numbers are only in the thousands.
 
Oh and btw I won't be writing any more analyses for at least 2 weeks due to RL exams. My involvement in the quest would also be reduced in the short term, hope you guys understand. My recent bout of activity was just to clear up the backlog I have.

This is what I will work on when I come back. If I don't, please remind me.
1. 'Integrating the Gaels' sequel series, detailing how we could go about integrating them while minimising the negative effects. I am taking more of a 'middle ground' approach on this one.
2. Finish off my planning analysis. I have 2 more to go.

P.S. I have seen quite a bit of drama in this quest from time to time. While everyone has opinions on different matters and at times these opinions are quite strong, we are still fighting for the same side sort of like a military command. Flaming is very counterproductive and might be slightly embarrassing, in the same way that you tend not to see the high command of competent militaries yelling at each other.

I won't name names as it is pointless, but hope everyone keeps that in mind. Civil discussions are the way to go, please think before you post. The person who you disagree with is actually on the same side as you.

Also @DragonParadox what series rewards would I choose from regarding my unusual weapons series, now that it is completed?
 
What I meant was the Fimir were what the Gaels were fleeing from. Even if we kill the beastmen lurking in the forests, there would still be refugees.





Good point, thats why we should take in the refugees first and see what they are like. We outnumber them as we have 40k people while their numbers are only in the thousands.
Hm..using my scale from before...
0 years, let us assume we take in 5ooo
and there is no intermixing

75 years. 10 000 to our 90 000
150 years 20 000 to our 180000
225 years 40 000 to our 360000
300 years 80000 to our 720 000
360 years, 160000 to our 1480 000

That is large numbers and crowding us out or ceating massive problems in the next few years?

@DragonParadox , some growth estimates would be nice.
 
Also @DragonParadox what series rewards would I choose from regarding my unusual weapons series, now that it is completed?

Choose one:

[] Flesh-bane Acid: Anardil finds a interesting concoction in the Grimoire of the late and unlamented Belgazar. One that consumes the flesh of animals and men but not anything inorganic or of vegetable origin. This would be a potent weapon for the guerilla war and assassinations.

[] Flash bombs: One of your scholars happens upon a expensive and dangerous method to create light based weapons.

[] Plans for larger and better balistas the like of which are meant to guard major fortifications.
 
Choose one:

[] Flesh-bane Acid: Anardil finds a interesting concoction in the Grimoire of the late and unlamented Belgazar. One that consumes the flesh of animals and men but not anything inorganic or of vegetable origin. This would be a potent weapon for the guerilla war and assassinations.

[] Flash bombs: One of your scholars happens upon a expensive and dangerous method to create light based weapons.

[] Plans for larger and better balistas the like of which are meant to guard major fortifications.
I think it should be the third... but the first has Anti-Firmir possibilities.
 
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