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The Kings of Men: Lord of the Rings/Warhammer Fantasy CK II Quest

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SailorMidgard said:
Uh...what large Enclaves?How big do you think agricutural settlements get?My guess is we are, at first, talking 2000-3000 new subjects, plus 1000-15000 guest workers.
Realy, your idea of forcibly separating kingroups.. is just asking for trouble.
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200 is big enough. It's about the size of the monkeysphere-or the people anybody actually knows or cares about.

Splitting up large kinship group is the entire point. If they don't like it, then they can gtfo, like the terms the Romans gave before Adrianople.
 
Yeangst said:
200 is big enough. It's about the size of the monkeysphere-or the people anybody actually knows or cares about.

Splitting up large kinship group is the entire point. If they don't like it, then they can gtfo, like the terms the Romans gave before Adrianople.
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You seem to have an irrational fear of clans.The TRIBES are the problems here... and i do not think we got any.I think- @DragonParadox ?- that there are akin kinship structures in Arnor.

And the Goths were ...well,just lets say that "GTFO" was not a viable option.And that the Roman treatment of them before that was exactly the way we should NOT treat the Gael, unless we are going to get the same result of righteous wrath.
 
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SailorMidgard said:
You seem to have an irrational fear of clans.The TRIBES are the problems here... and i do not think we got any.I think- @DragonParadox ?- that there are akin kinship structures in Arnor.

And the Goths were ...well,just lets say that "GTFO" was not a viable option.And that the Roman treatment of them before that was exactly the way we should NOT treat the Gael, unless we are going to get the same result of righteous wrath.
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I never said treat them poorly. Just don't settle them all in the same place. Unlike the Romans with the Goths, were are in position to dictate terms, and there's no reason to take any risks.

Besides, integration of refugees goes a lot better if they're scattered in small groups. Just look at the Vietnamese refugees.
 
SailorMidgard said:
You seem to have an irrational fear of clans.The TRIBES are the problems here... and i do not think we got any.I think- @DragonParadox ?- that there are akin kinship structures in Arnor.

And the Goths were ...well,just lets say that "GTFO" was not a viable option.And that the Roman treatment of them before that was exactly the way we should NOT treat the Gael, unless we are going to get the same result of righteous wrath.
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Tribes are a collection of clans. The reason why we want to split them up is to ensure that they assimilate. If you let them concentrate in one area, assimilation is much harder and you'll get Gaelic enclaves within Arnor. That is the last thing that we want.
 
cast2007 said:
Tribes are a collection of clans. The reason why we want to split them up is to ensure that they assimilate. If you let them concentrate in one area, assimilation is much harder and you'll get Gaelic enclaves within Arnor. That is the last thing that we want.
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Arbitrarly settling them in no more than 200 groups is...not giving them the feeling of being trusted at all.

But fine.If that is the common idea, split them up.And hope that our ..census officers are wise enough to not tear apart famills in the process.
 
[X] The Gaels are accompanied by only dissenting Truthsayers who have never dealt with the Fimir.

@DragonParadox

Will go for the Cauldron in my sequel series. I am not sure whether 3 is even a good idea, an intelligent leader may make integration even harder as we would have to break up the Gaels first.

Thelunarwolf said:
It was abit uncalled for @SailorMidgard.

Though to be fair theres been alot of freaking drama around sidhe and gael policies. I've stopped and i'm waiting on the interlude at this point, which should illuminate things abit.

We've had what amounts to the european migration discussion in this thread.

Enough is enough.
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The matter is one that has to be dealt with relatively soon, we cannot afford to postpone the discussion especially among the Gaels. The main issue is to have a civil discussion without flaming; it may sound hard but its doable. Also this issue is also extremely similar to the European migration issue, we both have refugees fleeing war in large numbers into a nation that may not be able to support them.

As for my policy, it is actually one that tries to reconcile BOTH viewpoints - I actually took a few hints from @Alratan 's comments when I wrote my plan, for example the rigorous criteria for citizenship which serves to limit the number that we have to integrate at any one time and ensuring that those who we take in are easy to integrate, while we still have the manpower of those who don't want to integrate.

I fully respect @Alratan although I disagree with most of his points on this issue. He has contributed a lot to this quest, and even if he didn't he should still be treated with respect.

Yeangst said:
@BrightFusion my caveat to your plan, otherwise very good overall, is to split the Gaels up into groups of no larger than 200. We most definitely do not want them forming their own large enclaves. Almost all successful integration efforts had some provisions to this effect.
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This is why I am very unlikely to go for option 3. We don't want them to be rallying behind an existing leader.

SailorMidgard said:
Uh...what large Enclaves?How big do you think agricutural settlements get?My guess is we are, at first, talking 2000-3000 new subjects, plus 1000-15000 guest workers.
Realy, your idea of forcibly separating kingroups.. is just asking for trouble.
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The number of initial refugees would be in the thousands according to GM.

As for how to actually settle the refugees, it will be dealt in the sequel series.
 
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Instead of outright putting an official number limit to grouped immigrants make it so that the people who figure out where they will live know to spread different groups as possible. The ones who don't care might not even notice what precisely we are doing and those who care will talk about it with the officers who may allow it or not depending but at the same time giving us a heads up on where some of the potential problems are.

Will need more than that off course but the basic idea is sound.
 
We lack knowledge and infrastructure to deal with Gaels in any number. We don't know how to deal with wizards, mutants and beastmen popping up.
We shouldn't ve too accepting before we get basic informations down.
 
aja318 said:
We lack knowledge and infrastructure to deal with Gaels in any number. We don't know how to deal with wizards, mutants and beastmen popping up.
We shouldn't ve too accepting before we get basic informations down.
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Well, we have sorta dealt with Wizards, and we know what to do with the beastmen and for us Mutants are less of a likely hood due to our resistance.

Mutants we do get, which are the result of natural Dhar exposure in the womb, I think we would probably look on with disgust, and pity, and likely treat them better than most factions, for better or worse.

As for info on the Gael's, well we have info, but all of it is Biased, so :confused:
 
I disagree with Brightfusions plan since it does not address the main issues of an attempted integration of the Gael. Namely the fact that we would have to resort to harsh and grim measures such as murdering (mutated) infants which is completely normal to the Gael and objectively the right thing to do, but would be abhorrent to the Dunedain and the Valar.
 
Chronic said:
I disagree with Brightfusions plan since it does not address the main issues of an attempted integration of the Gael. Namely the fact that we would have to resort to harsh and grim measures such as murdering (mutated) infants which is completely normal to the Gael and objectively the right thing to do, but would be abhorrent to the Dunedain and the Valar.
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Would we?

I mean it is canon that many of the mutants ain't automatically chaos corrupted, the fact that they are treated like **** or get tossed to the beast men that does that.

We would probably look at them with disgust and pity much like how we see mages, horror at the world thrusting this curse on them, not angry at them, after all they're the victim.
 
Chronic said:
I disagree with Brightfusions plan since it does not address the main issues of an attempted integration of the Gael. Namely the fact that we would have to resort to harsh and grim measures such as murdering (mutated) infants which is completely normal to the Gael and objectively the right thing to do, but would be abhorrent to the Dunedain and the Valar.
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Hmm. I wonder if either our resident sorcerer or our elf-bro via palantir could study a mutant and decipher if the soul is in OK-condition or not.
 
Alex pears said:
I mean it is canon that many of the mutants ain't automatically chaos corrupted, the fact that they are treated like **** or get tossed to the beast men that does that.
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That's 40k. A Warhammer Fantasy beastman comes with an instinctive need to destroy everything beautiful and civilised and shit on its remains.

They are worse than LotR orcs. Those at least have a choice in the matter.
 
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Alex pears said:
Would we?

I mean it is canon that many of the mutants ain't automatically chaos corrupted, the fact that they are treated like **** or get tossed to the beast men that does that.

We would probably look at them with disgust and pity much like how we see mages, horror at the world thrusting this curse on them, not angry at them, after all they're the victim.
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We are not as grimderp as the empire will be.
We do not kill children.Or exile them.

And face it, we can not turn the gaels away into beastmen-land in good conscience.
We can either try to help them..or leave them to the beastmen.
Now, which form of help is best...that can be debated.I am for integration.
Others say the risks are too high.

But simply leaving them to their fate is objectionable on moral grounds.
 
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SailorMidgard said:
We are not as grimderp as the empire will be.
We do not kill children.Or exile them.

And face it, we can not turn the gaels away into beastmen-land in good conscience.
We can either try to help them..or leave them to the beastmen.
Now, which form of help is best...that can be debated.I am for integration.
Others say the risks are too high.

But simply leaving them to their fate is objectionable on moral grounds.
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-Integrate those who are willing to integrate
-Allow refugees who are unwilling to integrate, but have good behavior to stay until the danger passes, provided they work for their upkeep.
-Exile those who are not willing to be under our jurisdiction, if they don't want to be under us, fine they are free to go.
-Kill those who have proven to be a threat.
 
Somebodynobody10 said:
Beastmen do not somehow mean "all mutants".
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I never said that. They are a significant part of all mutants though, which means that we will still have to kill infants.

Even worse, we can never know whether a mutant child will have beastmen instincts or not. The example of Turnskins even shows that said instincts can exist in outwardly normal humans, and even lay dormant for a lengthy period of time.
 
Chronic said:
I never said that. They are a significant part of all mutants though, which means that we will still have to kill infants.

Even worse, we can never know whether a mutant child will have beastmen instincts or not. The example of Turnskins even shows that said instincts can exist in outwardly normal humans, and even lay dormant for a lengthy period of time.
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Okay.
We are more resistant.Not immune.
Dunedain mutants will be a thing.

So, what is your opinion on the correct course to take?i am not baiting you.Just wanting to know.
 
Somebodynobody10 said:
Highly unlikely. Being heavily resistant should mean that unless a village plobs itself on top of a warpstone deposit, the background radiation and the chaos moon shouldn't have enough power to mutate them. You need active warp-sorcerer shenanigans at least to start the mutation train.
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So, we can not integrate the gael because of possible warp-taint and the only way of stopping possible warp-taint is extending the gift of men and the gift of the Valar to the Gael... which can only happen if we integrate them...circulus vitiosus achieved.
 
So in short we either have to take risk that we, IC, can't really deal with or not integrate other humans, which means trying to survive with a very low population, despite constant attrition. (kinda like an isolated dwarven Hold without allies, that gets overrun by Greenskins, sooner or later)

If all options suck just do what a good person would do.
 
Artemis1992 said:
So in short we either have to take risk that we, IC, can't really deal with or not integrate other humans, which means trying to survive with a very low population, despite constant attrition. (kinda like an isolated dwarven Hold without allies, that gets overrun by Greenskins, sooner or later)

If all options suck just do what a good person would do.
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And hope for the best.
 
Why are you acting like we would need to do all the work? The Gael can self-policy mutation and corruption themselves as well. They have sane Truthseers for that.
 
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