The chaos dwarves cant really afford more losess, they are a dying race, so it would be best for them to barricading themselves inside Zharr-Naggrund til they get a peace deal

in canon the chaos dwarves even without a big war were losing there pop, now that is gonna be faster and with a lot of shame on them, sure its not the same as with our dwarfs, but still they are gonna be effect by it as they are dwarfs
They're not going to do that. It surrenders control of the Dark Lands, many fortresses, riches and such…it goes against their own pride and ambitions.

I also don't think they have shame at all like we do. They have no Slayers and disdain the traditions and culture founded by the Ancestors, and have severed themselves entirely from the history of the Golden Age.
 
They're not going to do that. It surrenders control of the Dark Lands, many fortresses, riches and such…it goes against their own pride and ambitions.

I also don't think they have shame at all like we do. They have no Slayers and disdain the traditions and culture founded by the Ancestors, and have severed themselves entirely from the history of the Golden Age.
Well, the Chaos Dwarfs do have Slayer equivalents, they're just known as the Infernal Guard and get heavy armor plus a redemption clause. I assume that's a mix of an altered culture/mindset from other Dwarfs + a pragmatic measure because the Chaos Dwarfs really can't afford to lose population as death-seekers.

Actually, given that they were stationed in the Black Fortress, I could see the Infernal Guard emerging from the Black Legion post-war if they don't exist already, from a major sense of Shame at having failed to earn victory for the Dawi Zharr in war against their cousins.

(I had a whole omake planned for if we wiped out the Black Legion outside Vlag about the surviving members becoming the Infernal Guard out of shame.)
 
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They're not going to do that. It surrenders control of the Dark Lands, many fortresses, riches and such…it goes against their own pride and ambitions.
So they are gonna fight to keep those regions that they have now? that is were good for us as it means that we can kill more of them
I also don't think they have shame at all like we do. They have no Slayers and disdain the traditions and culture founded by the Ancestors, and have severed themselves entirely from the history of the Golden Age.
from the wiki it looks like they still have grudges, so it would still effect them in some way
 
Let me put it to you this way: we can fit most of the Karaz Ankor in Karaz a Karak.

If we were being hit by six Waaagh, an Everchosen, and Nagash, with Druuchi Black Arks parked on Barak Varr while Skaven launched an all out assault from below, would you vote to give up the Holds and concentrate in the Everpeak?
 
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I am worried that the dawi zhar will try to get chaos tribes to fight with them. While not as numerous as cannon they could prove potentially a problem in numbers. Also I do not know if they reached there cannon time but Uzuluk was a city we're a lot of chaos/orks,orges/evil factions traded.
 
I am worried that the dawi zhar will try to get chaos tribes to fight with them. While not as numerous as cannon they could prove potentially a problem in numbers. Also I do not know if they reached there cannon time but Uzuluk was a city we're a lot of chaos/orks,orges/evil factions traded.
We know, they had 30,000 assorted mercenaries including DumUmgi as of the Ulgash raid.
 
I am worried that the dawi zhar will try to get chaos tribes to fight with them. While not as numerous as cannon they could prove potentially a problem in numbers. Also I do not know if they reached there cannon time but Uzuluk was a city we're a lot of chaos/orks,orges/evil factions traded.
The main problem with mercenaries is that they expect to be treated well. I have no doubt that the chaos tribesmen are being well paid for their work, but I'm skeptical that the Dawi Zhar logistics is prepared to feed a large force of humans over a long period of time. And I doubt whatever slop they feed the greenskins is going to cut it.

The other big problem is that very few mercenaries can be paid enough to die for you. While chaos warriors in general love to bathe themselves in the glory of battle all but the most far gone Khornites can tell when they're being sent to their deaths.

All in all, as long as the Dawi keep winning they'll likely cut and run.
 
The main problem with mercenaries is that they expect to be treated well. I have no doubt that the chaos tribesmen are being well paid for their work, but I'm skeptical that the Dawi Zhar logistics is prepared to feed a large force of humans over a long period of time. And I doubt whatever slop they feed the greenskins is going to cut it.

The other big problem is that very few mercenaries can be paid enough to die for you. While chaos warriors in general love to bathe themselves in the glory of battle all but the most far gone Khornites can tell when they're being sent to their deaths.

All in all, as long as the Dawi keep winning they'll likely cut and run.
I am worried about chaos plot armor that allows them to have hundreds of thousands invade without any logistic or supplies. It's chaos and frankly thinking rationally is not something they do, I should know.
 
Chaos only gets to ignore supply lines when the core of its armies are composed of the actual Chaos Warriors who are literally sustained off of killing, and that only really happens on our scale of things when an Everchosen shows up.

Aside from that, even relatively big names do have to worry about logistics or supplies because their armies are mostly composed of Marauders who are still humans with the guys with that level of Chaos blessings being the rare elites. Tamurkhan's army for example almost collapsed early on when they started running out of food.

Also, the Chaos Dwarfs in Uzkulak are kinda cut off from reaching the Chaos tribes by our armies now, and last turn they were cut off by their own rebelling Hobgoblin army.
 
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I am worried about chaos plot armor that allows them to have hundreds of thousands invade without any logistic or supplies. It's chaos and frankly thinking rationally is not something they do, I should know.
This isn't the Chaos Wastes. There are probably some Chaos Warriors here but not enough for them to be in formations or to affect the balance of power in an engagement or conflict.
 
It's funny imagining him being able to legitimately treat Living Ancestors, and even the Ancestors, as children.
Speaking of which, if we really wanted to make him a legit apprentice we could theoretically apply the immortality modification onto a single dwarf so that they'd actually live long enough for him to train properly.

At least I don't see any reason we couldn't do something along those lines to use Vantigon as effectively a hero unit generator. Am I wrong in this regard @Lonkas?
 
Speaking of which, if we really wanted to make him a legit apprentice we could theoretically apply the immortality modification onto a single dwarf so that they'd actually live long enough for him to train properly.

At least I don't see any reason we couldn't do something along those lines to use Vantigon as effectively a hero unit generator. Am I wrong in this regard @Lonkas?
Well it is modification of the Dawi form and possibly soul. Gazul's scriptures may speak against such, and given how so much of the modern Karaz Ankor is composed of the blood of the Ancestors it might be sacrilege to tamper with that blood.
 
Speaking of which, if we really wanted to make him a legit apprentice we could theoretically apply the immortality modification onto a single dwarf so that they'd actually live long enough for him to train properly.

At least I don't see any reason we couldn't do something along those lines to use Vantigon as effectively a hero unit generator. Am I wrong in this regard @Lonkas?
We discussed dwarfs 2.0 before:
1) The would be huge penalties because dwarfs are already altered by the old ones.
2) considering his techniques involve a breeding program, there are some pretty ugly implications about ordering it done to your kin.

The lure of having dwarfs become biologically immortal is great: it would stop runesmithing skill loss, for one.

But its something that Vantigon is reluctant to do, and that any sane king should know better than to ask.
 
We discussed dwarfs 2.0 before:
1) The would be huge penalties because dwarfs are already altered by the old ones.
2) considering his techniques involve a breeding program, there are some pretty ugly implications about ordering it done to your kin.

The lure of having dwarfs become biologically immortal is great: it would stop runesmithing skill loss, for one.

But its something that Vantigon is reluctant to do, and that any sane king should know better than to ask.
Oh, I'm not talking about a new subspecies of dwarf, I'm talking about literally a single dwarf. Vantigon gets a +4 to his fleshcrafting rolls, and a -1 for working on dawi-size creatures. Biological immortality is -3, and singular creature is a +3 modifier, leaving only the -1 and whatever modifier being an Old One-shaped race leaves as maluses - assuming that's a -3, it just becomes a flat 2d6 roll to see if we get an immortal fleshcrafted dawi. Of course I'm not sure what the malus is for working on dawi, and there is the issue of it maybe being immoral if the process involves breeding for the traits over time, and technically dawi are capable of soft immortality with enough determination and spite anyway, but if we're really trying to invest in the future of the karaz ankor, several thousand years down the line, I reckon it's at least worth looking into.

Well it is modification of the Dawi form and possibly soul. Gazul's scriptures may speak against such, and given how so much of the modern Karaz Ankor is composed of the blood of the Ancestors it might be sacrilege to tamper with that blood.
Yeah, it would be a fair bit of political capital to burn, so we'd have to time such a project well in order not to hamper a king's reign too badly. Do it on Erbor or his successor's last turn or something, y'know?
 
Issue with that is Vantigon works by literally breeding for desired traits as well as doing some flesh crafting mumbo jumbo, so working on one dwarf will not work as a process to begin with.

The closest we could get to this is getting a particularly inclined to fleshcrafting dwarf to pull a Kragg the grim and be determined to learn *everything* about Vantigon's trade
 
assuming that's a -3, it just becomes a flat 2d6 roll to see if we get an immortal fleshcrafted dawi.
Iirc Lonkas eyeballed the modifier for humans at around -6, with the thread extrapolating the modifier for elves and dwarfs at around -8.

I will dig up the appropriate quotes when I'm not on my phone.

There's also the consideration that immortal dwarfs would likely become even more conservative as time goes by. And in a gerontocracy, that's a recipe for social stasis.

After all, why not make an immortal king?

We also thought of trying to add fecund instead.

A single dwarf(or a handful) would not significantly affect the game at the scale we are at. Not compared to getting dragons, flyers, cavalry, warpstone digesting beasts, anti greenskin ecosystem goats, water purification bivalves, etc.
 
Iirc Lonkas eyeballed the modifier for humans at around -6, with the thread extrapolating the modifier for elves and dwarfs at around -8.
Whoof, that nixes it pretty handily then.

And oh, I'd absolutely expect an immortal fleshcrafting dwarf apprentice to end terribly as a scenario, or spin into some horrific conundrum down the line when said dawi falls to chaos or decides to usurp the high king or something crisis-worthy. I'm suggesting this for optimal outcomes, I'm in it for story.
 
Whoof, that nixes it pretty handily then.

And oh, I'd absolutely expect an immortal fleshcrafting dwarf apprentice to end terribly as a scenario, or spin into some horrific conundrum down the line when said dawi falls to chaos or decides to usurp the high king or something crisis-worthy. I'm suggesting this for optimal outcomes, I'm in it for story.
This is very much a large part of it. BUt also because dwarves and elves have been flesh crafted extensively to the point where the natural resistance that both have to chaos is likely not because they were given any inherent resistance. But because of the sheer amount of effort their own bodies utilize simply making their disparate characteristics work together is insane. They likely have a -8 to flesh crafting attempts simply due to how much work has been done to them. Humans are a bit less extreme in this matter given their malleability but would still have a bit of a neg.

This is also an area where several generations of dwarves would have to be bred to try and imprint the desired traits. Something that no dwarf is likely to accept
And here's the quote from Lonkas.

We spent a couple of pages discussing Dwarf 2.0 back around pg 110.
 
Let me put it to you this way: we can fit most of the Karaz Ankor in Karaz a Karak.

If we were being hit by six Waaagh, an Everchosen, and Nagash, with Druuchi Black Arks parked on Barak Varr while Skaven launched an all out assault from below, would you vote to give up the Holds and concentrate in the Everpeak?
This isn't mechanically possible to my knowledge as we simply don't have the amount of gold required to move that many Dwarfs we'd simply need to attempt to stand and fight.
I am worried about chaos plot armor that allows them to have hundreds of thousands invade without any logistic or supplies. It's chaos and frankly thinking rationally is not something they do, I should know.
That's only a thing when Everchoosen walk the planet in this quest.
 
But anyway, since now we've seen the incredible power of flying units, have we reconsidered the order in which we want our beasties?

For me: Not really. Most of our combat for the forseeable future is underground, so shard dragons are still priority number 1.

Number 2 though should probably be something aerial: preferrably dragons, for the breath weapon, but Griffons or Eagles would also work.

And since we have an option for intrigue training, I have come up with some new potential beasties:

Beast number 1: Ulgu Yak
Yak (Large) + Naturally Attuned to Wind (Ulgu)
Penalty -2
Yak naturally produce wool, meat and milk, and are natural beasts of burden.
When attuned to Ulgu, the Yak starts emitting what more academically inclined dwarfs have started to call a SEP field, which makes the Yak itself very hard to notice.
Due to this field, herding these Yaks is a difficult, yet relatively safe endeavour: beastmen, greenskins and orks typically don't have the mental strength to overcome the SEP field produced by a herd. Unfortunately, this protection also affects the shepherd: it takes a very sharp witted herdsdwarf to keep an eye on such a herd without losing track of the animals, or even time itself. The Sep makes Ulgu yaks less suitable as beasts of burden than their strength would imply.
Fortunately enough, dwarfs are magic resistant enough for it to be possible.
The meat and the milk produced by these Yaks is a mild intoxicant, with the happy side effect that excessive consumption does not result in hangovers. The meat has to be dried to be consumed safely by dwarfs, as fresh meat infused with magic causes joint stiffness (and probably eventually petrification).
Similarly, the milk has to be fermented before consumption by dwarfs: the fermentation process has to be long enough for the noxious magic to dissipate.
The most useful product of Ulgu-yaks, however, is their wool, as it retains the full power of the SEP field for about a decade, before it starts to fade: Cloaks made from this wool turn the wearer effectively invisible.
When the SEP field starts to weaken, the cloak is retired from active military service, usually dyed in clan colors and worn as a regular garment.

Beast number 2: Hysh Doggos
This actually started as a meme, Ulgu sheep need Hysh sheepdogs, but then I decided to flesh it out more for it to be actually useful.
Being large, naturally intelligent dogs, specifically bred for guard duty, they have Intelligence as an innate property. (you could possibly also swing a limited Bred for war here, as a matter of training)
Large dog (Medium) + Hysh Attunement + Longevity (because dwarfs won't trust them to guard anything if they die after 15 years)
Penalty -4
A breed of Large guard dogs imported from Cathay after trade relations became a more regular thing. (Think Tibetan mastiff).
Their attunement to Hysh lets them sniff out chaos corruption and dark magic, and their bites are baneful to undead and demons.
For obvious reasons they are extremely popular among the Ulgu-yak shepherds, as they are not affected by the SEP field.

Would be pretty cool things to make... if we had unlimited build slots.

any feedback?
 
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Honestly I don't think we need the Sky Titan to create us flying mounts. Just take some Hippogriffs*, Pegasi or Gryphons. And either create some sort of dwarf harness to ride on or just use good old fashioned selective breeding and attempt to make them dwarf sized. No 400 years of flesh crafting required. And if all else fails we use our human soldiers to ride them.

*What my choice would be.
 
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Honestly I don't think we need the Sky Titan to create us flying mounts. Just take some Hippogriffs*, Pegasi or Gryphons. And either create some sort of dwarf harness to ride on or just use good old fashioned selective breeding and attempt to make them dwarf sized. No 400 years of flesh crafting required. And if all else fails we use our human soldiers to ride them.

*What my choice would be.
Griffons are notoriously ornery though (and Hippogriffs even more so), for a culture that normally stays away from beasts other than Goats and Ponies, start a breeding program for monsters is jumping the gun.
By a lot.

I don't even think dwarfs use domesticated Dogs.
 
Griffons are notoriously ornery though (and Hippogriffs even more so)
The perfect steed for a dwarf then.:lol2:
If humans in canon can train and ride them I don't see why a dwarf ( or a human soldier in dwarven service) can't.
for a culture that normally stays away from beasts other than Goats and Ponies, start a breeding program for monsters is jumping the gun.
By a lot.

I don't even think dwarfs use domesticated Dogs.
It's not like we have to go it alone. There's bound to be at least one human* who knows how to train the beasts. And it's not like a Dawi who puts his mind to it is going to give up.

*or Ancestors forbid, an elf.
Having flying units is a massive military advantage that we need for the dwarfs
Oh no doubt, this war has proved that. All I'm saying is that I'd rather not wait 400 to 800 years for it. Hence why we should start training flying beasts we can swiftly have access to.
 
Argenten and I talked about merging our spell casting beast with our flying beast for our second beast plus possibly throwing in the ability to eat warpstone to power up its magic the budgeting for it even ended up working out so the two of us will probably be voting for that with the Shard Dragon being our first war beast for that delicious +2 equipment mod and attrition reduction for our holds.
The perfect steed for a dwarf then.:lol2:
If humans in canon can train and ride them I don't see why a dwarf ( or a human soldier in dwarven service) can't.
Most of that training involves getting fingers and whole hands eaten by the damn things I'd note hell they still do that well fully trained. Dwarfs refuse to deal with such unreliable mounts that's why the requirements are Dwarf friendly, long lifespans, and highly intelligent for flesh crafting ones because that's the minimum amount of reliability required.
 
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