Different results actually as if we hit the highway again with a deep raid we wouldn't be able to take 51 the same turn so hitting the highway directly is inferior as it doesn't do all the other stuff taking 51 would.

Not really, as we could detail the deep raid to help with the takeover after dealing with the 'great highway' so the only thing that would really be changing the order we did things. Plus sending the deep raid would require the enemy to split their focus/forces to either deal with the attack and ignore the raid, send troops to stop the raid and weaken their defense, or try to deal with the raid first and then swing around to defend.

Ya, we could do that I guess I'd probably dedicate a High King and Brigundian action to the subject although regardless of if the action succeeds the attack would still go on as we can't afford to let the Dawi Zharr repair the highway with a mustering action or four which means we need to take 51 that turn.


Preferably the grey mages again and if we're still going in right after in 51 then it'll arguably be best to have the pass made into Uzkuluk so that way we can have an ace in the hole for taking it down and cutting off the smaller Midghals from the larger forces.


Ideally we'd be sending in three forces, the Sea assault and the 51 based assault/cache supported would be the primary focus and would be sent to take down any standing forces not in the hold itself and to siege it, the troops coming through 49 through the hidden pass would be coming in to take down the smaller settlements and to join in with the overall army.

Overall, assuming we spent at least 2 turns building up supplies in Krakka drak as well as making naval invasion transports, that would give us a net of 150k, 51+cach is another 175k, and 49 through the pass would be 150k so that's a massive army slamming into Uzkuluk and ensuring that they can't break the siege
 
How much do you guys wanna bet, that all of those black legion beseigers something along the lines of 40,00 odd, was trapped in Uzkulak before they could be transferred to Naggrund? Honestly, if we are that lucky than with the combined element of chaos dwarfs already their, than we yet again have them by the beard, so to speak.
 
How much do you guys wanna bet, that all of those black legion beseigers something along the lines of 40,00 odd, was trapped in Uzkulak before they could be transferred to Naggrund? Honestly, if we are that lucky than with the combined element of chaos dwarfs already their, than we yet again have them by the beard, so to speak.
Perhaps. Even if we did lock them up there, it's a fuckton harder to hit them along with the formidable garrison and the level 7 defenses. But we might be able to change that if we hammer their supplies hard enough.
 
How much do you guys wanna bet, that all of those black legion beseigers something along the lines of 40,00 odd, was trapped in Uzkulak before they could be transferred to Naggrund? Honestly, if we are that lucky than with the combined element of chaos dwarfs already their, than we yet again have them by the beard, so to speak.
We can hope but worst comes to worst we wear them down through the siege and by making sure they can't repair the 'Great Highway' in 123 and 51, maybe 124 if we want to be really nasty.

and the only way that Vlag is connected to Uzkuluk if one looks at the northern war map is in the northern side of the great pass with no actual passes leading to and fro, instead any passed in the western mountains of Uzkuluk lead to 42 and 51, hence why I think we'll need to make a pass there
 
Ugh, I just wanna skip straight to the next strategic situation/turn I'm so full of anticipation. See the effects, and if someone got in the damn tunnel.

And the negotiation options.
 
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Not really, as we could detail the deep raid to help with the takeover after dealing with the 'great highway' so the only thing that would really be changing the order we did things. Plus sending the deep raid would require the enemy to split their focus/forces to either deal with the attack and ignore the raid, send troops to stop the raid and weaken their defense, or try to deal with the raid first and then swing around to defend.
This would receive a heavy malus to actually completing the invasion as you'd have to wait for almost the entire turn for the deep raid's return before beginning the assault unless you want to take immense risks of failure and high casualties in success in addition to which even if you do somehow pull off the invasion despite the malus you'll have taken far high losses doing so than you otherwise would have with the same rolls due to the malus. Especially, since defenders for the highway wouldn't come from province 51 they'd come from the bordering Dawi Zharr migdhal province instead meaning the defenders would be weakened in no way just our army which is attacking them.
We can hope but worst comes to worst we wear them down through the siege and by making sure they can't repair the 'Great Highway' in 123 and 51, maybe 124 if we want to be really nasty.

and the only way that Vlag is connected to Uzkuluk if one looks at the northern war map is in the northern side of the great pass with no actual passes leading to and fro, instead any passed in the western mountains of Uzkuluk lead to 42 and 51, hence why I think we'll need to make a pass there
We won't need to make a pass the Dawi Zharr didn't so we shouldn't have to either.
 
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This would receive a heavy malus to actually completing the invasion as you'd have to wait for almost the entire turn for the deep raid's return before beginning the assault unless you want to take immense risks of failure and high casualties in success in addition to which even if you do somehow pull off the invasion despite the malus you'll have taken far high losses doing so than you otherwise would have with the same rolls due to the malus. Especially, since defenders for the highway wouldn't come from province 51 they'd come from the bordering Dawi Zharr migdhal province instead meaning the defenders would be weakened in no way just our army which is attacking them.

You are really bending this out of what I am proposing in order to invalidate it, the deep raid would be at most pushing through 57, 54 and 123 and then taking out the great highway connection from behind, and then continuing on to attack the enemy from the rear. At the start of a deep raid, there is little to no chance of risk of heavy raids and afterwards we'd be sticking in and finishing off the invasion which would negate us needing to make the same journey back.

This marks the second time you've tried to invoke the risk of 'high causalities without actually having anything to back it up as the waylaying from the provinces we'd be moving through is minimal with a 150k doomstack as we've seen.

And the only Midghal province worth worrying about is Uzkuluk which if that's a factor means that it will be a factor either way for the invasion even if we didn't send the deep raid. Plus, the hobgobs in 51 are NOT the iron legion, so yeah, it's still a factor for them to have a massive enemy army sneaking through from behind and then continuing to attack them and press in their main forces.

All in all, it would be cut off, the hobgobs would be facing two large forces working together to catch them in the middle and either way Uzkuluk will send troops so that should already be a given in the strategic analysis.

We won't need to make a pass the Dawi Zharr didn't so we shouldn't have to either.

They had the main pass moving through 51 as well as the smaller pass through the 7th settlement on 42...i f we want to move directly from Vlag's main pass to the westernmost Midghal of Uzkuluk...yeah it does make sense we'd need to make a pass.
 
You are really bending this out of what I am proposing in order to invalidate it, the deep raid would be at most pushing through 57, 54 and 123 and then taking out the great highway connection from behind, and then continuing on to attack the enemy from the rear. At the start of a deep raid, there is little to no chance of risk of heavy raids and afterwards we'd be sticking in and finishing off the invasion which would negate us needing to make the same journey back.

This marks the second time you've tried to invoke the risk of 'high causalities without actually having anything to back it up as the waylaying from the provinces we'd be moving through is minimal with a 150k doomstack as we've seen.

And the only Midghal province worth worrying about is Uzkuluk which if that's a factor means that it will be a factor either way for the invasion even if we didn't send the deep raid. Plus, the hobgobs in 51 are NOT the iron legion, so yeah, it's still a factor for them to have a massive enemy army sneaking through from behind and then continuing to attack them and press in their main forces.

All in all, it would be cut off, the hobgobs would be facing two large forces working together to catch them in the middle and either way Uzkuluk will send troops so that should already be a given in the strategic analysis.
You literally just listed what took an entire action and turn for our military and which it received a malus from doing before saying I'm twisting things out of shape by saying somehow doing that again wouldn't take at least most of a turn well inflicting a malus... Just seriously dude.

And what do you mean the second time? I think you've confused me with someone else regardless I was invoking that for the army that stayed behind and the theoretical scenario of them attacking without the aid of the deep raid army although if you want to discuss the damage said deep raid could take it's not so easy to brush off that 124 the province you're targeting borders province 41 a Dawi Zharr Migdhal so no Uzkuluk is not the only factor here we even saw that during this turn when the Dawi Zharr managed to scramble a large enough force to disrupt our efforts in the aforementioned province something.

I'd also note that based on previous actions the Dawi Zharr have almost certainly already taken counter measures against us raiding them in that manner again so any armies attempting the same tactic next turn are going to have a harder time than the one this turn.

Regardless even presuming all goes well something far from guaranteed, at a minimum the force returning is still going to have a tired malus which is an unneeded minus one that could easily be avoided with my plan making it objectively superior from that alone. But even brushing that aside we run into the lack of time malus which we also know exists due to previous raids where the efforts of our military receive a debuff on the lines of negative two or three to its rolls due to lacking the necessary time to accomplish its objective which would be the case here as odds are we probably wasted at least a month on this deep raid which would also have taken extra casualties by transiting through hostile provinces, and fighting Dawi Zharr defenders when it didn't need to.

So all in all our chances of actually winning an invasion next turn with this method are lowered considerably and we take extra casualties no matter what regardless of the outcome of said invasion all for no reason making it an objectively inferior way to accomplish our objective.
 
I do wonder how much of their territory is being defensively reconnoitered with their air forces. Just the north, or the inner as well…?

Relevant to that is the consideration of defeating their air forces in detail.
 
I think next turn we should bring the armies together and smash something.
Try to get the margin of victory so high we barely take casualties.
 
You literally just listed what took an entire action and turn for our military and which it received a malus from doing before saying I'm twisting things out of shape by saying somehow doing that again wouldn't take at least most of a turn well inflicting a malus... Just seriously dude.

And what do you mean the second time? I think you've confused me with someone else regardless I was invoking that for the army that stayed behind and the theoretical scenario of them attacking without the aid of the deep raid army although if you want to discuss the damage said deep raid could take it's not so easy to brush off that 124 the province you're targeting borders province 41 a Dawi Zharr Migdhal so no Uzkuluk is not the only factor here we even saw that during this turn when the Dawi Zharr managed to scramble a large enough force to disrupt our efforts in the aforementioned province something.

Second time because you tried saying we'd take hundreds of casualties for taking side provinces and when asked for quotes and verifications on the matter nothing sooo...yeah.

And seriously dude, the tired malus is something we'd get for the battle anyway if we sent them normally along with the rest of the army so that really doesn't change anything. I wasn't saying we'd go for 124, that was for later, this might be a legit confusion because I was talking about the deep raid going for 51 and always have been since this particular conversation started.

124 is something we do *later*, i meant before and still mean "we can send the deep raid to cut off the 51 section of the 'great highway' and then move on to join in the battle.

I'd also note that based on previous actions the Dawi Zharr have almost certainly already taken counter measures against us raiding them in that manner again so any armies attempting the same tactic next turn are going to have a harder time than the one this turn.

Regardless even presuming all goes well something far from guaranteed, at a minimum the force returning is still going to have a tired malus which is an unneeded minus one that could easily be avoided with my plan making it objectively superior from that alone. But even brushing that aside we run into the lack of time malus which we also know exists due to previous raids where the efforts of our military receive a debuff on the lines of negative two or three to its rolls due to lacking the necessary time to accomplish its objective which would be the case here as odds are we probably wasted at least a month on this deep raid which would also have taken extra casualties by transiting through hostile provinces, and fighting Dawi Zharr defenders when it didn't need to.

So all in all our chances of actually winning an invasion next turn with this method are lowered considerably and we take extra casualties no matter what regardless of the outcome of said invasion all for no reason making it an objectively inferior way to accomplish our objective.

and you claim objectivity when you provide nothing but your own rhetoric to back it up. And even with the countermeasures, it would be happening in the same turn as a province we are invading soo...not sure what you're going on about here.

Again, please check to make sure you actually know what you're talking bout and what was meant before you try playing the high handed patronization.

Their countermeasures won't make much of a difference in 51 when the hobgobs are at best a vassal state they barely put any effort into...

I do wonder how much of their territory is being defensively reconnoitered with their air forces. Just the north, or the inner as well…?

Relevant to that is the consideration of defeating their air forces in detail.

Depends on how much territory they can cover with three wings of their Taurox. Hopefully we can wittle them down with the dragon allies we have.

I think next turn we should bring the armies together and smash something.
Try to get the margin of victory so high we barely take casualties.

That's more or less what I've been suggesting by having the cache troops go for the 'great highway' as it not only ensures that we take it out right off the bat, but it also gives us an advantage because they're geared up for facing our army coming out of the pass from 49/Vlag and then...SUDDEN DOOMSTACK IN THEIR BACKYARD! aka they get hit by the 'deep raid' that smashes the 'great highway' in 51 and then catches the hogbogs from behind.
 
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What i forgot about

The Air war
1 wing of dragons, 3 rookeries of great eagles vs 1 taurox flight (being very cautious while still being useful)

1: Rookery of great eagles lost
2 - 4: Neither side deals significant damage to the other, they do have an effect on you raiding supplies
5 - 8: You kill the taurox flight for no casualties of your own but they do have an effect on you raiding supplies
9- 10: You kill the taurox flight for no casualties of your own

= 3: Neither side deals significant damage to the other, they do have an effect on you raiding supplies

How effective was your raiding of their supply lines
- Rendered irrelevant by the destruction of the great highway. There are now over a hundred thousand hobgoblins without access to food who are going to realize their situation in very short order.
 
On the one hand, annoying we didn't know it wouldn't matter if we succeeded with the Highway. On the other hand, well, it served as a backup.
 
Ooof. Not the best roll. Hope for good modifiers.

Edit: Damn. Not, bad, but not good.


Honestly, the presumably plains of 51 benefit the hobgobos more than the narrow passes of 42, so essentially sending another army to hit them from the rear would give us plenty of advantages due to them having to redraw their battlelines rather than focus on the wonking big pass they expect us to come from.

Same logic as making the pass from Southern vlag but we can do it this turn.

What i forgot about

The Air war
1 wing of dragons, 3 rookeries of great eagles vs 1 taurox flight (being very cautious while still being useful)

1: Rookery of great eagles lost
2 - 4: Neither side deals significant damage to the other, they do have an effect on you raiding supplies
5 - 8: You kill the taurox flight for no casualties of your own but they do have an effect on you raiding supplies
9- 10: You kill the taurox flight for no casualties of your own

= 3: Neither side deals significant damage to the other, they do have an effect on you raiding supplies

How effective was your raiding of their supply lines
- Rendered irrelevant by the destruction of the great highway. There are now over a hundred thousand hobgoblins without access to food who are going to realize their situation in very short order.


YUUUUUSSSS hahahaha, i knew it! I knew cutting them off was the right move, even if we couldn't get both...that 100k hobgobs are going to be a Very, VERY loose canon.

Bummer we didn't take down the flight but eh, still overall good.

On the one hand, annoying we didn't know it wouldn't matter if we succeeded with the Highway. On the other hand, well, it served as a backup.
Yeah, while i wish we'd gotten the flight. I am happy that we didn't lose the rookery either.
 
May aswell roll for what they do now.

What do the Hobgobs do
1 - keep working for the chaos dwarves even if it means starving to death
2 - 3: go south into 51
4 - 5: go north to Karag Dum
6 - 7: go north to 102
8 - 9: go north to 119
10: besiege Uzkuluk (at least till they realize how bad of an idea that is)

= 10: Besiege Uzkuluk
Lonkas threw 1 10-faced dice. Reason: What does the hobgob mob do? Total: 10
10 10
 
Second time because you tried saying we'd take hundreds of casualties for taking side provinces and when asked for quotes and verifications on the matter nothing sooo...yeah.

And seriously dude, the tired malus is something we'd get for the battle anyway if we sent them normally along with the rest of the army so that really doesn't change anything. I wasn't saying we'd go for 124, that was for later, this might be a legit confusion because I was talking about the deep raid going for 51 and always have been since this particular conversation started.

124 is something we do *later*, i meant before and still mean "we can send the deep raid to cut off the 51 section of the 'great highway' and then move on to join in the battle.
I walked away from that conversation because your response was boring as hell, to be frank, and I couldn't be bothered to argue it because I'd have to correct you on so much info you were just wrong about like somehow rushed kulls don't lead to us taking hundreds of thousands of casualties when we have WoG saying so.

And, no don't try to argue that somehow starting the purging of a province with a tired malus is the same as getting one near the end as we did well-purging province 42, purging a province is a multi-step province based on our experience with it this turn so there's a large difference between getting a malus at the start and end. Also if you meant province 51 was what we were going to be deep raiding that was highly unclear as you referenced our previous attacks which did not occur in province 51 and then in a clarifying reply you also mentioned province 124 in a way that implied you had intended to go after it this turn but if we weren't doing so you'd want to go after it in the future as a just in case measure.
and you claim objectivity when you provide nothing but your own rhetoric to back it up. And even with the countermeasures, it would be happening in the same turn as a province we are invading soo...not sure what you're going on about here.

Again, please check to make sure you actually know what you're talking bout and what was meant before you try playing the high handed patronization.
What I said was highly objective, to be frank as I referenced exact mechanical effects and triggers before pointing out how what you appeared to be planning would go through the aforementioned triggers applying said mechanical effects. With regards to countermeasures when it was presumed you were going after 124 there absolutely would have been countermeasures to such a plan but there can't really be any for province 51.

Everything I said was correct with regards to mechanics for what your plan appeared to be so I very much do know what I'm talking about.
How effective was your raiding of their supply lines
- Rendered irrelevant by the destruction of the great highway. There are now over a hundred thousand hobgoblins without access to food who are going to realize their situation in very short order.
What. They didn't build up any supply in any province in the North Darklands? Man, that makes this war a lot easier than I thought it was going to be.
 
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Bonus points if it lured in the survivors in 42 or ups the chances of other Greenskins getting involved.

Does that include the garrison of Uzkulak @Lonkas ?

What about the mercenaries?
 
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What. They didn't build up any supply in any province in the North Darklands? Man, that makes this war a lot easier than I thought it was going to be.
It would have been a very easy target for you to raid and destroy. Sending food and supplies through the great highway means is a damn near impregnable method of supplying your armies and also allows you to turn the flow of supplies on and off at will. Giving you an easy method of control against any khans who may be getting... ambitious. Then it got buried
 
I walked away from that conversation because your response was boring as hell, to be frank, and I couldn't be bothered to argue it because I'd have to correct you on so much info you were just wrong about like somehow rushed kulls don't lead to us taking hundreds of thousands of casualties when we have WoG saying so.

So basically you expect me to believe that you just...got bored and left rather than not actually having anything to remotely back up what you said and you still got what i said wrong because I was talking about invading and *then* kulling during the siege...you aren't even responding to the right points or what is happening so how are you in any way doing anything other than gaslighting?

Check your details before you try to play the 'too cool for the room' card.

again, if you have WoG, feel free to quote it, search function is right there in the to right.

And, no don't try to argue that somehow starting the purging of a province with a tired malus is the same as getting one near the end as we did well-purging province 42, purging a province is a multi-step province based on our experience with it this turn so there's a large difference between getting a malus at the start and end. Also if you meant province 51 was what we were going to be deep raiding that was highly unclear about as you referenced our previous attacks which did not occur in province 51 and then in a clarifying reply you also mentioned province 124 in a way that implied you had intended to go after it this turn but if we weren't doing so you'd want to go after it in the future as a just in case measure.

Yeah, that's why we'd need to do one at a time like i was always suggesting, I was never at any point suggesting we do multiple side provinces. I even said it from the start we'd need to do one at a time and we could only really do it because the siege of Uzkuluk would take a looong time to wear them down.

And so you did not bother to check, verify, or in any way make sure that you hadn't misread, you just double down and then try to pass off *your* miscommunication as not your fault? Own up to your own failures.

What I said was highly objective, to be frank as I referenced exact mechanical effects and triggers before pointing out how what you appeared to be planning would go through the aforementioned triggers applying said mechanical effects. With regards to countermeasures when it was presumed you were going after 124 there absolutely would have been countermeasures to such a plan but there can't really be any for province 51.

Everything I said was correct with regards to mechanics for what your plan appeared to be so I very much do know what I'm talking about.

Not really, you literally were wrong about what I was doing, wrong about the mechanical effects that would apply and thus any 'technical' correctness is so far out of bounds and the point that it makes no difference.

Again...check that you actually know what's being discussed before you talk down to people and patronize them. It's not that hard...at least it shouldn't be.
Bonus points if it lured in the survivors in 42 or ups the chances of other Greenskins getting involved.

Does that include the garrison of Uzkulak @Lonkas ?

What about the mercenaries?

Here's hoping, although I figure the ones in 42 are hunkering down.

It would have been a very easy target for you to raid and destroy. Sending food and supplies through the great highway means is a damn near impregnable method of supplying your armies and also allows you to turn the flow of supplies on and off at will. Giving you an easy method of control against any khans who may be getting... ambitious. Then it got buried
"We have this foolproof method of keeping our armies supplied and our vassal troops under control, nothing can go wrong."

*Dwarf high king kicks over the anthill*

"Well...fuck."
 
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