The Hearts of Iron Megathread

People really love willfully misinterpreting that explanation. It's aggressively ignorant. America acts as a mediator to prevent Eurasia from getting nuked, and suddenly they're monsters defending fascism. I don't think people like accepting the fact that war with nuclear armed states ends either ends in a victory, de-escalation, or total annihilation. They can be destroyed but never defeated. The Soviet Union defeats Germany conventionally but in order to hold onto their empire, and defend their core territory, they will push the button and raze the entire continent in the process.

I don't think people understand that even a "local" exchange limited to just Eastern Europe and Russia would devastate the entire world with its literal and metaphorical fallout.
What got people pissed from what I recalled wasnt the US jumping in to stop nuclear anhilation, it was more the second Cold War, where (at least from what I heard) the US was using the literal Nazis as counter balance to the Soviets. That left a bad taste in alot of peoples mouths.
 
What got people pissed from what I recalled wasnt the US jumping in to stop nuclear anhilation, it was more the second Cold War, where (at least from what I heard) the US was using the literal Nazis as counter balance to the Soviets. That left a bad taste in alot of peoples mouths.
Except that by the time the second cold war starts, Germany isn't Nazi anymore but a de facto republic. (in part thanks to the US influence to make them reform in exchange of support as their empire was crumbling)
 
Except that by the time the second cold war starts, Germany isn't Nazi anymore but a de facto republic. (in part thanks to the US influence to make them reform in exchange of support as their empire was crumbling)

From what I can tell, the Gang of Four reforms are, like, the very bare minimum to be called quasi-democratic at best? Maybe that changes in the next ten year span, but "The Russians don't want the barely-reformed and still highly racist monsters in charge to keep all of Western Russia under their thumbs just because they're technically now democratic, sorta kinda, but still filled with fascists from top to bottom" seems like a pretty damn reasonable position for any of the sane Russian leaders/etc to hold.
 
Except that by the time the second cold war starts, Germany isn't Nazi anymore but a de facto republic. (in part thanks to the US influence to make them reform in exchange of support as their empire was crumbling)

I mean, "Actually, reformists have made nazi germany good and cool without the nazis ever facing justice, their crimes ever being meaningfully acknowledged or any of their victims receiving any justice. Also they still de facto run most of Eastern Europe, which is basically ruled by settler-colonists from Germany proper"

Is... bad. Germany is still bad here. Being a "de facto republic" does not wash the blood from their hands.
 
From what I can tell, the Gang of Four reforms are, like, the very bare minimum to be called quasi-democratic at best? Maybe that changes in the next ten year span, but "The Russians don't want the barely-reformed and still highly racist monsters in charge to keep all of Western Russia under their thumbs just because they're technically now democratic, sorta kinda, but still filled with fascists from top to bottom" seems like a pretty damn reasonable position for any of the sane Russian leaders/etc to hold.
In the now defunct canon the Go4 don't win the GCW, not even Speer, it was Bormann, who then proceeds to continue the orthodox Nazi system which slowly spiral Germany to its downfall, purging the most capable people of the Reich to consolidate his power so when he dies of his terminal lung cancer, there isn't anyone competent enough to succeed him and the Reich accelerate its crumbling. Enters the USA who pressure Germany by supporting the reformist faction to transition the country back into a semblance of democracy, culminating in the SWRW where they accept to play the negotiator between them and the USSR in exchange of the country's democratization.

My point wasn't that it was good or bad (was it less than optimal? Sure, but realistically there's no way to bring the fascist to justice without Germany civil warring itself to oblivion), but that the screams of "the USA will help the Nazis to own the soviets" is wrong, because the Nazis aren't in power anymore by the time the second cold war starts.



I mean, "Actually, reformists have made nazi germany good and cool without the nazis ever facing justice, their crimes ever being meaningfully acknowledged or any of their victims receiving any justice. Also they still de facto run most of Eastern Europe, which is basically ruled by settler-colonists from Germany proper"

Is... bad. Germany is still bad here. Being a "de facto republic" does not wash the blood from their hands.
Again, without a giant civil war killing most of Germany or the USSR pulling a gamer move and plunging the world into a nuclear war, there's no way for the OFN to bring the German fascists to justice.
 
Last edited:
Just one personal gripe about the GCW: I honestly think the Reformist 60s Protesting Youth Movement in Germany is rather unrealistic and goes against the goals of deconstructing Facism. A generation raised in a victorious Third Reich, with all the propaganda and youth Indoctrination organizations like the Hitler Youth, aren't going to just accept their entire lives were built around a lie. Far more likely you get Red Guard Style Fanatcism and Cultural Revolution. Personally I'd of just gone wit that to reenforce the horror of what exactly has happened to German Society. My personal basis for Speers support base would be the OTL Conservatie Resistance and others who turned on Nazism when it so ovbiuously fell off the tracks, those who can remember a day before the Reich with some degree of fondness and wish to return to that Conservatie State. Of course their not at all innocent of the complicity in Nazism and that could also be explored well.
 
In the now defunct canon the Go4 don't win the GCW, not even Speer, it was Bormann, who then proceeds to continue the orthodox Nazi system which slowly spiral Germany to its downfall, purging the most capable people of the Reich to consolidate his power so when he dies of his terminal lung cancer, there isn't anyone competent enough to succeed him and the Reich accelerate its crumbling. Enters the USA who pressure Germany by supporting the reformist faction to transition the country back into a semblance of democracy, culminating in the SWRW where they accept to play the negotiator between them and the USSR in exchange of the country's democratization.

My point wasn't that it was good or bad (was it less than optimal? Sure, but realistically there's no way to bring the fascist to justice without Germany civil warring itself to oblivion), but that the screams of "the USA will help the Nazis to own the soviets" is wrong, because the Nazis aren't in power anymore by the time the second cold war starts.

That's incredibly stupid lore then. Bohrmann continuing on the path Hitler laid out does not result in a Germany slowly crumbling and falling into America's orbit, it results in total collapse of the Third Reich upon his death, and the - now unified - Russians trivially marching in before anyone else can meaningfully respond.

Like, if that's the lore, its obviously moronic. Pretty much every unifier is more concerned about the Germans than about any other faction, so their armies would be poised on the border, and the Third Reich would collapse when Bohrmann died, at which point... they would invade. There is no point where America would have time to intervene; the Wehrmacht certainly isn't going to be a functional goddamn army after Bohrmann purges all his rivals and then kicks the bucket.
 
Bohrmann continuing on the path Hitler laid out does not result in a Germany slowly crumbling and falling into America's orbit, it results in total collapse of the Third Reich upon his death, and the - now unified - Russians trivially marching in before anyone else can meaningfully respond.
It really doesn't. Just because the Germany Bormann builds is stagnant and crumbling doesn't mean that his death will instantaneously lead to the whole country imploding in on itself. Would there be civil strife and conflict? Certainly. But you don't just fucking invade a nuclear-armed country just because it's undergoing massive civil unrest.

I feel like a lot of people have misrepresented the 2WRW on this thread. How I remember the lore for it going is that Bormann kicks the bucket, the Second West Russian War starts with the USSR invading. The Russians make it to Moscow, where conflict starts to slow down. The Americans broker a peace agreement between the Germans and Soviets, and the resulting fallout of the war forces Germany into the American sphere, at which point it technically becomes a Republic (probably meaning that it cleans up its public image while not really democratizing significantly).

In my planned story, Germany was technically a republic in 80 and the new cold War was beginning
 
That's incredibly stupid lore then. Bohrmann continuing on the path Hitler laid out does not result in a Germany slowly crumbling and falling into America's orbit, it results in total collapse of the Third Reich upon his death, and the - now unified - Russians trivially marching in before anyone else can meaningfully respond.
Except it doesn't, because even with an incompetent successor to Bormann, the Reich is still limping on sheer inertia alone, and more importantly still have their nuclear arsenal.
The US' main objective when they played the negotiator wasn't to bring Germany into their sphere of influence to prepare for the next cold war (that was the bonus objective), it was to avoid a thermonuclear war.
 
Except it doesn't, because even with an incompetent successor to Bormann, the Reich is still limping on sheer inertia alone, and more importantly still have their nuclear arsenal.
The US' main objective when they played the negotiator wasn't to bring Germany into their sphere of influence to prepare for the next cold war (that was the bonus objective), it was to avoid a thermonuclear war.

There is no successor to Bormann. He has killed everyone who could succeed him. There would most probably instead be another civil war, whereupon their nuclear arsenal is massively divided between different factions, the subject people rise up, and the Russians invade with ease.

Stanning a weird, bad piece of lore that no longer applies to anything is certainly a choice, and I don't know why so many people are making it.
 
There is no successor to Bormann. He has killed everyone who could succeed him. There would most probably instead be another civil war, whereupon their nuclear arsenal is massively divided between different factions, the subject people rise up, and the Russians invade with ease.

Stanning a weird, bad piece of lore that no longer applies to anything is certainly a choice, and I don't know why so many people are making it.
Well if Germany is still functional enough to be able to resist the Russian advance and threaten to unleash their nuclear arsenal, that means that someone did succeeded Bormann and managed to keep Germany together enough. Or maybe the Reichstag became the de facto ruler I don't know.

And I'm not stanning that piece of now dead lore, I'm simply explaining that contrary to what some people said, the US didn't protected Nazis to stick it to the communists, but only played the middleman to avoid a nuclear war.
 
It really doesn't. Just because the Germany Bormann builds is stagnant and crumbling doesn't mean that his death will instantaneously lead to the whole country imploding in on itself. Would there be civil strife and conflict? Certainly. But you don't just fucking invade a nuclear-armed country just because it's undergoing massive civil unrest.

I feel like a lot of people have misrepresented the 2WRW on this thread. How I remember the lore for it going is that Bormann kicks the bucket, the Second West Russian War starts with the USSR invading. The Russians make it to Moscow, where conflict starts to slow down. The Americans broker a peace agreement between the Germans and Soviets, and the resulting fallout of the war forces Germany into the American sphere, at which point it technically becomes a Republic (probably meaning that it cleans up its public image while not really democratizing significantly).
Even if the US didn't have blatantly self-serving interests in coercing the Russians into a disappointing peace, I say they would still have valid concerns about the post-Bormann government (who would be more cognizant about their detrimental position than anyone else in-universe) getting angsty enough and resorting to pulling the nuclear dead-man's switch. Enacting "De-Nazification" after this government transitions into OFN alignment is of course going to be a piecemeal effort due to the sad, simple fact that the ITTL window for anything like the Nuremberg trials and so has closed the moment lore magic made Germany a nuclear power and thus able to leverage MAD at anyone who has the ambition to take over Germany and dismantle Nazism's legacy effectively.

Now, what's left unsaid is how the other Eastern Reichkomissariats fit into the equation, post SWRW. I believe that- as an obvious matter of common-sense and to make the transition from Nazism more serious and stabilized for new OFN hegemony, the US would do away the structure of German over-lordship, and turn them into native-run OFN-aligned states. In the case of Poland, Norway, Netherlands etc, I suppose it is a matter of returning the governments-in-exile.

Stanning a weird, bad piece of lore that no longer applies to anything is certainly a choice, and I don't know why so many people are making it.

Because when you really think about it, it makes sense. One of TNO's aims is to explore how the Axis victory of WW2 utterly changed world history (for the worse), so it would just break the immersion if, just like OTL, the Soviets just takeover the whole of Eastern Europe from the Nazis, hoist their flag over the Reichstag and then happy ever after. Even if we were to dismiss the aforementioned fact that the Germans have nukes and that any contenders for the top spot aren't going to be idle as the Russians go on a land-grabbing spree to their detriment. And I think you slightly overestimate how ruinous the post-Bormann environment would become.
The way I see it at least, as damaging as Bormann's purges were, it paradoxically also meant that there isn't any organised, opposing factions that are influential enough to try gunning for power. The turbulence that hits German society with his death would be more the weakened government struggling to get their house back in order, than yet another civil war.
 
The way I see it at least, as damaging as Bormann's purges were, it paradoxically also meant that there isn't any organised, opposing factions that are influential enough to try gunning for power.
Not even getting into TNO2 stuff (Since I don't honestly know the plans for Bormann in TNO2) but Bormann's storyline ends with the Red Army Faction being a major threat to the Reich's stability, able to hit some pretty high up targets in Bormann's regime.
 
I have to agree with Allstar. The bulk of the party bureaucracy and military is still be intact even after Bormann's purges. He's simply removed his rivals and dismantled most factions that could have opposed him. The state would continue functioning after his death. It's set the stage for a slow collapse from internal strife and instability, rather than outright civil war, especially with the militarists killed. The Red Army Faction will cause major trouble, but the key difference is they aren't a government faction. That intense internal rivalry within the government is what lead to the first Germany Civil War.

On the Second West Russian War there's also the fact that even if the Russian unifier didn't want to finish off Germany and stopped at the edge of its borders, Germany couldn't accept that. It's tied its economy into extracting resources and slave labour from its colonies. Moscow was a net loss for Germany, but the Kaucasusia, Ukraine, and Baltics were seen as economic pluses, at least able to break even, in addition to providing a massive buffer between it and Russia. I do look forward to seeing how it will eventually play out in game, and the various ways it can go, but I can understand that for 'canon' it'd end in a mediated ceasefire.
 
Not even getting into TNO2 stuff (Since I don't honestly know the plans for Bormann in TNO2) but Bormann's storyline ends with the Red Army Faction being a major threat to the Reich's stability, able to hit some pretty high up targets in Bormann's regime.
Yes and they would be one of the reasons why the government is going to struggle to get their house back in order. But menacing as they are, I doubt they'll reach the momentum where they can actually try pulling off a revolution within Germany. The way I understand it, the DSR has been retconned away by the devs.
 
Yes and they would be one of the reasons why the government is going to struggle to get their house back in order. But menacing as they are, I doubt they'll reach the momentum where they can actually try pulling off a revolution within Germany. The way I understand it, the DSR has been retconned away by the devs.
Not really retconned away, just being heavily changed so it is no longer "funni communist killpeopleism", which is honestly great.
 
So from what I understand, carrier based dive bombers in HOI IV are is pretty lame because they aren't that useful for supporting land forces and torpedo bombers are way more effective in naval combat. Is that correct?

Kind of disappointing if so, as IRL dive bombers were a pretty serious threat to ships.

Part of the reason I ask is that I'm starting a US game and am wondering if I should even bother with the famed SBD Dauntless (a plane I really like btw).
 

RIP to the poor guys who have to travel across two oceans in a Submarine that's older than them.

But seriously, check this submod out, it's great.
Hurrah, I did it! I fended off Alexander Men, raided the Japanese and American merchants, dragged my personnel kicking and screaming into professionalism, and eventually left with all but one of the submarines. I completed the grand odyssey, crossed the Arctic ice shelf, and reached the WRRF!

...only to find them on the verge of defeat at the hands of fascist Komi.




God dammit, Zhukov.
 
Last edited:
I tried RF Churchill and I couldn't help but get a sense of orientalism in the writing. The fact is, everything's from his PoV, so you barely get much insight onto the condition of the Indians - it's just "haha funny British man gas natives", and also mediocre writing about Churchill being a sadboy, I think I've genuinely built up a strong dislike for the mod at this point.
Although I am very glad that it helped me make the very good decision of not playing RF again for at least a month.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top