The Hearts of Iron Megathread

IMO the problem with the Kaiserreich fandom has less to do with the Kaiserboos (who make up a relatively small portion of all KR fans despite the popularity of the mod in that niche) and more to do with Entente fans, who will happily engage in apologia for all sorts of imperial atrocities in the name of liberal democracy. At least the "based PatAut Kaiser" folks are honest about what they want.
No points for honesty but admittedly they are worse but in the realistic way that all empires with a democracy think they are spreading liberal Democracy.

dead horse Is dead tho as pointing out how not only evil but fucked the entente is. Is basically the default here

granted the fandom seems to think 2 colonies one that could better be called "the republic of Algiers" for all the power it actually would have and the other is the colony that can't but really wants to.
 
The Succession War mechanics for the successor of Bukharin in the USSR in The Red Order mod which is basically a Führerreich style spinoff for the TNO universe. The power struggle is behind the scenes and there will be no Soviet Civil War.

There is Mikhail Suslov who is the most likely successor who wants to end the NEP to create a more collectivist economy. Andrei Zhdanov is the leader pretending to be a reformist but his subordinates are actual reformers. There will be no LibSoc Ultravisionary path here according to the devs. Genrikh Yagoda is similar to his TNO counterpart with his intent to implement Dengist style economic reforms. Mikhail Tukhachevsky wants to strengthen the Soviet military, fuel socialist rebellions, and aggressively confront the capitalist West but he is not going to declare war on all his neighbors. The Red Napoleon is actually the most orthodox successor of the four here according to the devs.
 
I gotta say, Red Order is easily my favorite of the TNO submods right now. It manages to take full advantage of its setting and creates something fresh while still retaining the narrative flair of TNO. I love it and can't wait to play it once it's out.
 
There is Mikhail Suslov who is the most likely successor who wants to end the NEP to create a more collectivist economy. Andrei Zhdanov is the leader pretending to be a reformist but his subordinates are actual reformers. There will be no LibSoc Ultravisionary path here according to the devs. Genrikh Yagoda is similar to his TNO counterpart with his intent to implement Dengist style economic reforms. Mikhail Tukhachevsky wants to strengthen the Soviet military, fuel socialist rebellions, and aggressively confront the capitalist West but he is not going to declare war on all his neighbors. The Red Napoleon is actually the most orthodox successor of the four here according to the devs.

Is Zhdanov going to be an Ultravisionary at all, or is he just a reformer with a modernizing focus?
 
If you want a couple more red flags, they have Reagan and Goldwater labeled as good endings in that compass and there's one ending called "Wallace's Redemption", because nothing is more tact than giving one of the biggest segregationists of the Civil Rights Era a redemption arc!

To be fair, a Wallace redemption and a Reagan sane path are some of the least objectionable stuff they did in comparison to Nazbol Kirkpatrick.

Reagan was a new dealer at one point, it is possible he could end up a socdem in this world as well(I know VDA is going that route). Wallace recanting his beliefs and the genuineness of it is much more genuinely ambigious than say, Nazis like Speer or many of the proponents of the Clean Wehrmacht theory that have been proven to have lied off their entire assses to avoid the noose. Even TNO, while making his route one of the worse ones, has a secret ending where, if you do not do his worse paths, he realizes that perhaps being too much of a racist is maybe not healthy. So not quite a redemption, but he can have a bit of a conscience. This feels like more culture war crap or finding reasons to dunk on a mod based on how odious someone is IRL(at least in Reagan's case)

Also while I have other reasons to be not happy with this specific mod, having right wing(as long as not fascist/nazi) and centrist paths be "blessed" isn't a bad thing outside of some culture war/ideological war mentality. There is a vibe here(understandable given the premise that this site was founded on) that anything to the right of Bernie Sanders in the US(or FDR if we're leinant) be given a sane path is somehow a bad thing. But not every mod will have the same leftist tilt and we have to remember: the Cold War propaganda legacy still casts a large shadow over everyone so we can't expect everyone to make anything less to the left of the most left NDP or Labor politician be the only good paths.

Remember that TNO does this with Bennett and I think that more centre leaning boards don't hate Goldwater, so while for me hes one of the more bad choices, he's meant to be a "last hurrah before the failstates come in" and the "hurrah" can easily happen, but it won't be good from a progressive and to the left of that angle; through it is understandable from a centrist pov.
 
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Ok I am sorry to have to discuss this but yet more drama regarding TNO from the wrong sources I feel compelled to act, as someone who was involved with TNO and Krasnacht, as well as Blue world, WAAAAYYYYY back and can give a clearer picture of what happened.

The recent drama regarding "Hammy" in an effort to smear the TNO team as pedophiles and groomers is a half-truth at most, being stretched as much as possible to implicate the entire TNO team for defending Hammy to this day. Hammy is indeed a vile pedophile, that much is correct, she has been involved in various mods wayyy back like KN and TNO, and word actually got out rather quickly what she is doing.

However, the TNO team itself are not enabling this behavior. I will speak using my own experiences back in 2017-2018. This is another trick to tar TNO devs with the actions of one person.

I was one of the really old devs from TNO and from my memory of the incident, I was aware they(Panzer and the TNO devs) were aware Hammy was a pedophile, TNO did not cover their tracks as the allegations claim, they banned her and I pushed for the KN devs to ban her too.

It's extremely clear that TNO's existence is a blight to these people, Panzer is gone, Pacifica is gone, and TNO is moving from a more hard narrative experience with a central canon to be a more openended narrative experience, yet it's clear these people simply want a mod to die and the entire dev team to be seen as the worst things ever because of greviences against a few individuals that were themselves overblown and ended up destroying the lives of these individuals. This destructive hatched job campaign must be opposed to at all levels of the fandom.
 
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Basically the new update is just another meme-ish kind of path? Dunno just seems to have a lack of interesting mechanics. The update to combat mechanics seems good though!
 
I'm mostly pissed that every time a new patch comes out, the base gets made a bit more bare.
 
I'm going to transplant my take on tno from the considerably more obscure "hoi4 alternate history" thread I was using during the thread lock:

TNO is... interesting. I like it, and it catches my interest in a way that no other mod has.

Like, it's not a mod that is remotely sympathetic to fascism, and has a wide variety of sympathetic and effective left wing governments.

But that being said, its portrayal of Nazi Germany is.. off?

Like for all it makes the case that the German economy is a mess, they manage to get to the moon 7 years ahead of OTL.

There is also still this weird whitewashing, where the worst excesses of the Nazi regime are gotten rid of before gameplay starts or given to the SS.

The Nazis seem to have stopped the final solution and the worst of Generalplan Ost for "pragmatic" reasons in flavor of widespread slave labor. This is questionable. They didn't stop the wholesale slaughter when it was siphoning resources from an existential war they were losing, why would they stop it after their victory? For "pragmatism"? This is the same Nazi Germany that literally fucks itself and its national interests with the Atlantropa project in-mod.

An openly anti-nazi student movement exists in Hitler's Germany? That's very questionable.

The depiction of Speer... First of all, I credit the devs for not depicting Speer as a "good nazi", specifically on how the more genuine reforms of the GO4 require turning Speer into a puppet. That being said, I am not completely sold on the amount of reform that is portrayed as possible working within the system in Nazi Germany. Or even for that matter the "let's make nazism less bugfuck insane" reforms of something like the independent Speer path. Making improvements to the lot of jews in Nazi Germany strikes me as a complete non-starter. This is especially relevant because the degree to which nazi ideals are entrenched in society is used as a point by the devs to argue against things like sane-path DSR.

It reminds me of Guns of the South. It pulled no punches depicting the CSA as an immoral cruel institution, but also dramatically oversold how capable of reform it would be (they end up abolishing slavery).

About the Burgundian system: It's generally portrayed as a horrific, unsustainable system destined for collapse that is still deadly and dangerous before it does. I have no issue with that characterization. The issue is that Burgundy itself has thick plot armor and is competence-washed.

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And here are some insightful responses:

I think while it can be criticized calling it whitewashing is far too strong, "they only stopped genocide because economic collapse forced them" is in no way a moral improvement. It's just stopping an atrocity because they were forced to by factors that were, mostly, beyond their control. Furthermore considering that slavery continues to exist it's even less of a moral improvement.

It can be criticized in terms of plausibility, whether Nazis would actually stop it is unclear for the reasons you mentioned in this post, but it's not a whitewash. At least not in any way that matters.
Well, you'll be pleased to know that the TNO devs have acknowledged this problem and intend to rectify it in the future.

I at least partly agree with you on Germany feeling a bit off in TNO, but I can see some of the potential reasoning behind some of these decisions.

Firstly, separate from the in-universe explanation of economic collapse, I think trying to make a Nazi victory timeline where they continued the genocide at full steam for 30ish years would be, well, overly grim. If the nazis got that far and crushed every resistance group in their path to dust, there isn't really any hope left for that world, especially in Europe. There isn't really much worth in making an alternate history like that imo, regardless of accuracy. The only people it'd appeal to would be nazis. The switch to the slave system is a good excuse to have local resistance alive and kicking, which makes for a much better narrative and lets them tell stories about resistance to fascism, instead of just fascism's unending march to victory.

As for the student movements, I actually think that's one of the more believable things about TNO's Germany. Subversive political movements have historically been perfectly capable of existing in authoritarian regimes, especially student movements. The student movements that lead to the Tiananmen Square protests in China are a prominent example, and I suspect they're the inspiration for the ones in TNO's Germany. Obviously that movement was eventually crushed, but only when it was getting to the brink of open revolt, with worker groups and normal citizens joining the unrest. Before that point, the government was wary of cracking down on students, and elements of the ruling party wanted to negotiate instead of crackdown before being sidelined. I think it's believable that even Nazi Germany may hesitate before gunning down Aryan children in the streets, it wouldn't be a particularly popular decision among their parents. Especially considering that in this timeline, basically every German youth goes to university, because they're all essentially NEETs due to the slave system.

I do agree with the reform thing though honestly. I liked playing Go4 Germany, and it makes sense gameplay-wise to put in an anti-nazi Germany path, but I don't really think it'd be at all possible to reform the Nazi state apparatus into anything remotely decent without completely smashing it first. Even OTL Western Germany retained some fascistic policies, and that state *was* smashed. I don't know how they plan on depicting Go4 Germany in TNO 2 though, they may attempt to address this.
 
The issue is that Burgundy itself has thick plot armor and is competence-washed.
Having played Burgundy a couple of times (albeit not to completion), I would disagree with this.

The "plot armour" that people refer to is that AI Burgundy is hard-coded not to collapse, while avoiding this collapse is devilishly difficult as a player. Personally, I'm fine with this - we know from OTL, DPRK that a crazy hermit kingdom with nuclear weapons can survive even as its economy and power completely collapses around itself. If North Korea could survive the dire situation of the 1990s (in which their benefactor kicked the bucket and famines were thinning out their population) despite not having nuclear weapons yet, Burgundy can scrape through its own crises.

But surviving is one thing. Thriving is another. And actually executing Himmler's grandiose ambitions is yet another. Seriously, as far I can tell the Globalplans fail almost all of the time - they can be derailed at any point by various state actors simply refusing to play along. And on the off chance that they do succeed, all Himmler really did was poke at states that were already unstable to begin with, and maybe give them a nudge in the right direction.

Also, one of the early events you get as Burgundy is the BurgSys country in Russia (Josias' state I think) deciding that they no longer feel like playing along with Himmler, and opting to simply stop sending Himmler money and resources. And there's nothing Himmler can do about it except shake his fist impotently.

Not long after that, we get Himmler's chief economic minister telling him that even if Josias were to continue sending the money, it would not make up for the budget shortfalls. Burgundy has gotten by through pretty much looting France in several ways and...and now there's nothing left to loot or exploit. Himmler has already squeezed every last drop of blood from the stones. And Himmler's response is to have him shot. A new Yes-man is appointed afterwards.

The conquest of new French territories staves off the eventual collapse on paper, but introduces a whole host of new problems. Now Himmler has lots more inconvenient Frenchmen who pose problems to him, and need to be oppressed accordingly. It can be done, but it takes time and resources away from the Globalplans and Himmler's endgame.

And then the SS manage to engineer a freaking FAMINE in some of the biggest and most fertile agricultural areas France has. Pretty much everything has to be put on hold to deal with that problem.

As for the nuclear weapons...I can attest that creating even one nuclear weapon is an ordeal as Burgundy. Most of what Himmler has, he had Heydrich steal for him from Germany during the civil war.

Oh, and to cap it all, Burgundy is honestly unnecessary for ending the world. Things can get shrimpy just fine without the intervention of "FUNNI NUKE MAN."



So, absent the God Hand of the player, what's actually going to happen to Burgundy? I'd say this guy makes a good case:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in North Korea in the 70's, Kim Il-Sung began a massive military buildup. He trashed the previously booming DPRK civilian economy in favor of refurbishing the army for the final reconquest of the peninsula. But the moment never came. The South began to surge past them economically, the USSR and China never came anywhere near giving them that kind of permission...and eventually he ended up having to give way to his son, Kim Jong-Il. Kim II, while just as paranoid as his father, had no real interest in "finishing the job" as his father did. He liked movies, nice food, and artwork. And once a series of massive storms and famines wrecked the infrastructure of the DPRK, and the USSR wasn't around to give them aid to rebuild...well, it took all their resources just to keep the country under control and the elite of the country in the style they'd become accustomed to. Who cared about the South, except to periodically fuck with them or kidnap people, in exchange for a bit of aid or food?

This is all a long-winded way of saying that while the Ordenstaat will always be an absolutely awful neighbor, I could absolutely see them "degenerating". As Himmler grows increasingly senile, as the economy grinds itself into dust, as a life spent in cold, damp bunkers grows pale compared to the images the young officers see on the signals they intercept from other countries. As a muscle held at full tension will eventually shred itself into a collapsed nubbin, so the Ordenstaat's own state of eternal readiness destroys it. Eventually, you've got a miserable country that periodically makes threats against the "JUDEAIZED BOLSHEVIK RATS" all around them, while secretly sending messages that they'll tone down the threats and periodic kidnappings if the Reich/OFN will send them a few truckloads of grain...and maybe some new films?

Not whitewashing nazism, or ruining the excellent role Burgundy plays as this terrifying figure in the game's first stage...but showing the sad ending of someone who spent their lives lost in a fantasy, sacrificing everything to be ready for a moment that already came and went when Heydrich lost the war.

To reiterate: the high water mark of Burgundy - when it was its best position to execute Himmler's dreams - was in the 1960s, when they still had a massive and up-to-date army, and Heydrich as a willing puppet ready to win the civil war and hand the country over to them*. After that, they are doomed to expend almost all their efforts and resources just holding themselves together while the country slowly degrades and Himmler steadily descends into senility like Hitler did. Himmler's successors, if they can hold the decaying mess together at all, will have no interest in his grandiose saturday morning cartoon villain schemes.

There might be no hope under the Black Sun...but even the Black Sun must eventually set.

*Well, not really, as the Heydrich path shows.
 
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