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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

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The point isn't that we're in danger of a people shortage. The point is that in the long run, six hundred million more people in the civilian economy are likely to do more for our military strength than six hundred million more beings with rifles.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Making equipment for the army is almost certainly the main reason the low end consumer goods economy is shriveling up. If the size of our army supply contracts grows by 150% over the next year or two, supplies of civilian consumer products are going to stay shriveled up.
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I'm with you with concerns about army expansion, but I think Poptart said we've got a massive equipment stockpile through overproduction. Makes me wonder if he army would run with less of a surplus of gear diverted to warehouses, rather than taking up more (presumably not-really-existing, as that's the problem) civilian production.

PoptartProdigy said:
For that matter, despite the fact that you've not fought a single ground action throughout the now-over-forty years of the Rachni War, you've still been producing Army equipment. You have to; if it comes to ground actions, you need the production lines already up and running. Thus, you're running one of the most spectacular surpluses of gear in history, allowing you to equip these people. The loss in credits, furthermore, represents you diverting some of your, "free," military resources to setting up more production lines to sustain this recruitment wave, where, "free," means, "not slated to ongoing commitments and held in readiness for short-term jobs." This is, in theory, an expansion you can sustain for a very long time, and it even threatens to bring matters to a new equilibrium, if a somewhat unstable one.
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The implication is that instead of expanding the army, one way to boost commercial production is to release some of this contingency capacity to the civilian sector.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
The point isn't that we're in danger of a people shortage. The point is that in the long run, six hundred million more people in the civilian economy are likely to do more for our military strength than six hundred million more beings with rifles.
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My concern is that we'll continue to just have too many people, and that those six hundred million people will be pretty useless to our military in the short run whether they have guns or not. So, you know, we can find something to do with 600 million people with guns even if it's just the greatest flash mob of all time, and then we can feed them back into the civilian economy as it can handle them.

Edit: Also, we can control the kind of people we feed back into the civilian economy based on what we feel it needs to some degree. The training that soldiers go through doesn't have to be wholly incompatible with civilian work.
 
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Kinruush said:
My concern is that we'll continue to just have too many people, and that those six hundred million people will be pretty useless to our military in the short run whether they have guns or not. So, you know, we can find something to do with 600 million people with guns even if it's just the greatest flash mob of all time, and then we can feed them back into the civilian economy as it can handle them.
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Or, you know, we've potentially got half a billion unemployed trained soldiers, if population growth continues to match economic growth.
 
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Alliterate said:
Or, you know, we've got half a billion unemployed trained soldiers.
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There isn't a time limit on the expansion. We don't have to kick them all out at once. And, to quote my edit:

Kinruush said:
Edit: Also, we can control the kind of people we feed back into the civilian economy based on what we feel it needs to some degree. The training that soldiers go through doesn't have to be wholly incompatible with civilian work.
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Kinruush said:
My concern is that we'll continue to just have too many people, and that those six hundred million people will be pretty useless to our military in the short run whether they have guns or not. So, you know, we can find something to do with 600 million people with guns even if it's just the greatest flash mob of all time, and then we can feed them back into the civilian economy as it can handle them.

Edit: Also, we can control the kind of people we feed back into the civilian economy based on what we feel it needs to some degree. The training that soldiers go through doesn't have to be wholly incompatible with civilian work.
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We are also likely get a whole lot of them killed conquering the Rachnis worlds for the glory of the Republic. Certainly solves our unemployment problem, and if we are smart about it we might be able to capture their industry intact.
 
[X][PM] Campaign as normal. Ti'ord has gathered substantial support, but not nearly enough to threaten you as things stand.
[X][POLICY] Yes: Diamonds In the Rough. The FDO will prioritize systems that return the most profit, expense no object.
[X][NAME] Assilia Prime. Utilitarian and easily-scaled.
[X][COLONIES] No, this sets a poor precedent. The FDO will retain a limited remit of space-based development, and you will develop Nimal Pak at your leisure.
[X][BILL] Fetch me my rubber stamp! Assembly implements an army expansion option, raising the size of the standing army to a full one billion individuals in combat roles (from its current four hundred million). Takes up significant unemployed slack and lessens strain on civilian economy by way of removing huge swathe of population from civilian economy. Not actually a long-term fix and may actually lead to worse problems eventually by way of all of those individuals eventually going back onto the civilian market, all at once, but gives way more time to prepare for them and implement solutions. Also: gigantic army. Some would say the benefits are self-evident. -50,000 yearly income.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Interestingly, unemployment insurance for all the unemployed people costs considerably less than drafting roughly half the unemployed people. Despite how much surplus equipment we're throwing at the problem of the army expansion based on what @PoptartProdigy said.
This suggests that while drafting six hundred million soldiers may be effective at fighting the effects of unemployment, it probably isn't very efficient. I'm not at all sure I support it.
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Soldiers are more expensive than civilians, particularly when one is shouldering the full living costs of every single soldier but only ensuring that the unemployed people can get food.

As for efficient...depends on what you want.
 
Chronic said:
We are also likely get a whole lot of them killed conquering the Rachnis worlds for the glory of the Republic. Certainly solves our unemployment problem, and if we are smart about it we might be able to capture their industry intact.
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Look, Poptart said that Mira has a plan for them, but jumping to "They're all going to die!" isn't helpful.

Alliterate said:
Isn't there? It's the Assemblies program, run by them. Can they end the bill and mandate a scaling back? Presumably after they consider the Rachni threat reduced? Genuine Q.
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It's a bill presented by our ally in the Assembly to give us an option we hadn't previously considered. I don't think it's in the spirit of that to expect it to suddenly end, and I expect that any such scaling back would require another, new bill. I certainly wouldn't mind that question being answered by Poptart if they don't mind providing a more conclusive answer, though.
 
on the Colonies option.. would it possible to put a bureaucratic option in there, instead of a Firm Yes? She/FDO identifies a good sight to set up a minor colony out of their budget, and submits the paperwork for the approval for it. Paperwork winds up on our desk, we rubberstamp it, paperwork returns to them with our seal of approval. they begin landing options. Approval would be automatic without player input, unless something weird happens during the process.

Basically.. PM keeps the power to approve is a colony is set up, but a administrative process is set up that allows the FDO to seek such approval without the players getting involved. unless something goes wrong/weird and needs player input.
 
Kinruush said:
Look, Poptart said that Mira has a plan for them, but jumping to "They're all going to die!" isn't helpful.
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They're not going to all die, but if we conquer planets from the rachni it's going to be very freaking bloody. Remember our boarding actions of the rachni stations? Maybe not that bad in terms of "we lose thirty percent of the troops engaged and then have to retreat and nuke the site from orbit anyway," but bad.

These aren't your daddy's Bug War bugs, or rather they are, because Heinlein's Bugs used ray guns that could cut through powered armor and were every bit as much a technically competent, tool-using species as humanity. Many of their successors dropped that feature.

I'm not voting against it right now; I'm actually deeply ambivalent about all the vote choices that are even close to contested right now. But be sure that if we go up against the rachni in ground combat, we are going to lose a LOT of soldiers. Very possibly millions, if we're up against anywhere near the scale of opposition that would make it worth enlisting a billion-being army anyway.

Poptart's made that pretty clear as it is, remember? There are reasons the Council wasn't willing to stomach the military casualties it would take to clear rachni planets, and eventually wound up deciding they'd rather uplift the krogan than deal with it themselves.
 
Okay, so people have mentioned concerns about focusing too much on the long term and letting the short term stagnate, so I figure I'll lay out my understanding of the current situation and how what we've been doing and what I hope we do handle it. I'm going to try to divide things based on where their effects are felt most directly.

SHORT TERM - 0 to 2 years
Public Spending Campaign
Mass Stimulus
Colony Launch
Army Expansion
Public Works Projects
Virani's Proposal
Unemployment Benefits

Between PSC and Mass Stimulus, we stopped the financial collapse cold in its fucking tracks.

Your ludicrous success on these two measures has seen the crash halt entirely, if only for a limited period of time. You have yet more time to respond, and the corporations' uncharacteristically far-sighted actions with your money have helped the civilian economy expand -- not a lot, but a little, and so soon after the start of the crash, that is incredible. This crash will begin again if you don't act, immediately and decisively, to capitalize on these successes, but you have the room to do it.
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We need to provide more immediate relief to the economy and our citizens to keep the crash from starting again, but we have the room to do it.

Which is where, between Colony Launch, the Army Expansion, and Public Works Projects, we hire fucking everyone. 100mil from Colony Launch, 600mil to the Army, whoever Virani can hire, and as many warm bodies as we can possibly throw at Public Works. This is a massive, immediate investment in the lowest levels of the economy, and would flow outward.

For anyone who doesn't immediately get a job, we have Unemployment Benefits to accomplish the same thing. Fortunately, Unemployment Benefits gets cheaper for every person who's employed, so all those other expensive options just make Unemployment Benefits cheaper, providing another bit of immediate relief since we'll be picking up Unemployment Benefits anyway. Also, oh, hey, Virani's mining colonies give us a place to station some of those soldiers.

This is literally every option we have that helps the short term without causing direct problems or passing up opportunities in the long term.

MEDIUM TERM - 2 to 5 years
Public Works Projects
Virani's Proposal
Fun Coupons
Crash Courses
New Cities

The second phase of Public Works Projects and Virani's Proposal hit. For Public Works, we put people to work staffing the public works that we've finished building and cycle in new unemployed people to build new public works. For Virani's Proposal, the mining colonies start producing income we can use to recoup what income we've lost (notably more than if we hadn't chosen to accept her proposal) and additional minerals to go into the civilian or military economies.

Fun Coupons and Crash Courses both complete, giving us back the income we've invested in them. Crash Courses begins training people in useful trades. Fun Coupons finally reveals all the awesome stuff we got from our Ultimate Critical Success. Between the two, we'll have more opportunities to invest in our schools and in companies dedicated to medical research.

Two turns from now, we can start New Cities, and it will take four turns to complete, solving for now the crisis we have with overpopulation and giving yet another opportunity for employment and investment in business as we'll have to get those cities built somehow.

LONG TERM - 5+ years
Public Works Projects
Diamonds in the Rough
Army Expansion

Oh, hey, I put Public Works again here because it just keeps being awesome. This doesn't just maintain one, consistent level of employment like a lot of choices, or provide only temporary relief, it continuously provides new jobs and new opportunities for business. So great.

If we accept Virani's Proposal, the effects of Diamonds in the Rough won't really be felt until later than they normally would, since she'd be focusing on something else.

You'll notice that I put Army Expansion here, too. Its effects would, of course, be weaker here than they would be in the short term, but I wanted to mention what happens with it. See, hiring all those soldiers means we have to train them, making it like a ridiculously inefficient way to provide training for a variety of trades, and we get to decide (within limits) which trades! Now we get to feed them back into the civilian economy as needed. This does mean we have to make sure we don't flood the market with 600 million workers all at once, but we aren't locked into a specific time frame.
 
Simon_Jester said:
They're not going to all die, but if we conquer planets from the rachni it's going to be very freaking bloody. Remember our boarding actions of the rachni stations? Maybe not that bad in terms of "we lose thirty percent of the troops engaged and then have to retreat and nuke the site from orbit anyway," but bad.
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We don't actually have to invade the Rachni with them. That is not the point of the expansion, and we would get to choose if we actually wanted to use them that way, which, you know, neither of the two of us would be in favor of doing.

the bill proposes a massive Army recruitment drive in anticipation of future offensive against Rachni space, or failing that, garrison duty on current and future colonial properties.
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It's mentioned as a possibility, yes, but I don't think I've actually seen anyone seriously support the bill for that specific reason. It's more likely that they'll be used to garrison random planets while the whole thing is used as an inefficient training mechanism for workers and a way of giving 600 million people jobs. Mira will find a use for them even if we aren't invading, but it'll be finding a use rather than being the specific intent behind the expansion.

The biggest benefits the expansion offers are that it's immediate, it provides jobs (and thus money back into the economy), and it doesn't take up one of our limited action slots next turn.
 
uju32 said:
It doesn't change my vote atm; we have at least 4 HQ mines within next to already colonized or exploited systems, three within one hop of Amalinya.
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I mean...if they're that nearby, wouldn't Low-Hanging Fruit target them anyway, with the added benefit of being extra sure we're not going to accidentally end up doing something that'll only be long-term profitable instead?
 
[X][PM] Campaign as normal. Ti'ord has gathered substantial support, but not nearly enough to threaten you as things stand.
[X][POLICY] No, a focus on a well-connected and -developed mining network can only be to your benefit at the moment.
[X][NAME] Assilia Prime. Utilitarian and easily-scaled.
[X][COLONIES] No, this sets a poor precedent. The FDO will retain a limited remit of space-based development, and you will develop Nimal Pak at your leisure.
[X][BILL] Fetch me my rubber stamp! Assembly implements an army expansion option, raising the size of the standing army to a full one billion individuals in combat roles (from its current four hundred million). Takes up significant unemployed slack and lessens strain on civilian economy by way of removing huge swathe of population from civilian economy. Not actually a long-term fix and may actually lead to worse problems eventually by way of all of those individuals eventually going back onto the civilian market, all at once, but gives way more time to prepare for them and implement solutions. Also: gigantic army. Some would say the benefits are self-evident. -50,000 yearly income.
 
The other inconsequential effects of the army expansion bill is Mira getting the publicity for those benefited from this generous bill. Of course we will never admit it that was never the concern.;)
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On the less good news is the department for internal development / Works Progress Administration might be less politically viable as the crash seems "defeated" for the moment.
People are not keen on creating a monster department if there are no pressing need for it.
 
VoidZero said:
On the less good news is the department for internal development / Works Progress Administration might be less politically viable as the crash seems "defeated" for the moment.
People are not keen on creating a monster department if there are no pressing need for it.
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I don't think that's really the case, though. The crash is stalled, but there's no economist who would say that it's defeated, and the economy is still in a hole with ridiculous unemployment.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The point isn't that we're in danger of a people shortage. The point is that in the long run, six hundred million more people in the civilian economy are likely to do more for our military strength than six hundred million more beings with rifles.
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In the long run? Sure.
But in the short run six hundred million more people in the civilian economy will strangle it.
We don't currently have the capacity to support them as civilians.

Even Unemployment Benefits only provide for their feeding; not their clothes, housing or transport.
Simon_Jester said:
They're not going to all die, but if we conquer planets from the rachni it's going to be very freaking bloody. Remember our boarding actions of the rachni stations? Maybe not that bad in terms of "we lose thirty percent of the troops engaged and then have to retreat and nuke the site from orbit anyway," but bad.
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Note that the last time, we sent light infantry, unsupported, to face off against numerically superior numbers of bugs.
And they were trying to take the infrastructure intact.
The losses are, in hindsight, more or less expected.

In this case we're going to be sending full armies: tanks, aircraft, artillery, possibly ships, and probably parking a couple cruisers in orbit for fire support.
We are NOT trying to take anything intact.

ROEs are going to basically be using everything that doesn't cause lasting environmental damage; gas, cluster munitions, fuel-air bombs, tacnukes, neutron bombs, all on the table. Population concentrations, military or civilian will eat ortillery strikes.
Drones and satellites will fill the skies for recon, and any tunnel mouth that even looks funny will get a thermobaric munition.

Our only reason to attempt to take prisoners would be if we identify a Rachni queen sanctuary or senior commander.
Simon_Jester said:
I'm not voting against it right now; I'm actually deeply ambivalent about all the vote choices that are even close to contested right now. But be sure that if we go up against the rachni in ground combat, we are going to lose a LOT of soldiers. Very possibly millions, if we're up against anywhere near the scale of opposition that would make it worth enlisting a billion-being army anyway.
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Key consideration: Intelligence. We know very little about the rachni at the moment. Never captured a commander.
Planetary invasion is the only realistic chance we have of capturing a Rachni queen or a Rachni egg nursery in the near- or medium-term.
And if we pull that off, we can simply have an asari investigator force a Meld and pull data out of it's head.
 
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[X][PM] Campaign as normal. Ti'ord has gathered substantial support, but not nearly enough to threaten you as things stand.
[X][POLICY] No, a focus on a well-connected and -developed mining network can only be to your benefit at the moment.
[X][COLONIES] No, this sets a poor precedent. The FDO will retain a limited remit of space-based development, and you will develop Nimal Pak at your leisure.
[X][NAME] Assilia Prime. Utilitarian and easily-scaled.
[X][BILL] Fetch me my rubber stamp! Assembly implements an army expansion option, raising the size of the standing army to a full one billion individuals in combat roles (from its current four hundred million). Takes up significant unemployed slack and lessens strain on civilian economy by way of removing huge swathe of population from civilian economy. Not actually a long-term fix and may actually lead to worse problems eventually by way of all of those individuals eventually going back onto the civilian market, all at once, but gives way more time to prepare for them and implement solutions. Also: gigantic army. Some would say the benefits are self-evident. -50,000 yearly income.
Adhoc vote count started by Brogatar on May 7, 2018 at 9:16 PM, finished with 109 posts and 40 votes.
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[x][PM] Campaign as normal. Ti'ord has gathered substantial support, but not nearly enough to threaten you as things stand.

[x][POLICY] Yes, to Diamonds In the Rough

[X][COLONIES] Yes, Virani makes an excellent argument. You need people in jobs and more production, and a faster, cheaper, and easier start to a second colony world is one of the best possible ways to ensure that.

[x][NAME] Assilia Prime. Utilitarian and easily-scaled.

[x][BILL] Fetch me my rubber stamp! Assembly implements an army expansion option, raising the size of the standing army to a full one billion individuals in combat roles (from its current four hundred million). Takes up significant unemployed slack and lessens strain on civilian economy by way of removing huge swathe of population from civilian economy. Not actually a long-term fix and may actually lead to worse problems eventually by way of all of those individuals eventually going back onto the civilian market, all at once, but gives way more time to prepare for them and implement solutions. Also: gigantic army. Some would say the benefits are self-evident. -50,000 yearly income.
 
[X][POLICY] No, a focus on a well-connected and -developed mining network can only be to your benefit at the moment.
[X][POLICY] Yes, to Low Hanging Fruit

I'd favor the latter but mostly really don't see how Diamonds in the Rough is a good idea right now.
 
[x][PM] Campaign as normal. Ti'ord has gathered substantial support, but not nearly enough to threaten you as things stand.

[x][POLICY] Yes, to Diamonds In the Rough

[X][COLONIES] Yes, Virani makes an excellent argument. You need people in jobs and more production, and a faster, cheaper, and easier start to a second colony world is one of the best possible ways to ensure that.

[x][NAME] Assilia Prime. Utilitarian and easily-scaled.

[x][BILL] Fetch me my rubber stamp! Assembly implements an army expansion option, raising the size of the standing army to a full one billion individuals in combat roles (from its current four hundred million). Takes up significant unemployed slack and lessens strain on civilian economy by way of removing huge swathe of population from civilian economy. Not actually a long-term fix and may actually lead to worse problems eventually by way of all of those individuals eventually going back onto the civilian market, all at once, but gives way more time to prepare for them and implement solutions. Also: gigantic army. Some would say the benefits are self-evident. -50,000 yearly income.
 
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