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[X] Plan Hard Line part 2

This plan I think is the best course at the moment.

Though I do find it rather interesting and worrying that their leader at least I think she is their leader is so poor at diplomacy. There intrigue actions until recently have done a ok job at keeping us away from real data I wonder what else they could have hidden from us and if they have any dead man style traps and such hidden in our military asserts.
 
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With how paranoid the Lystheni are - how sure are we that the person we are talking to is the dalatrass?
 
With how paranoid the Lystheni are - how sure are we that the person we are talking to is the dalatrass?

Point they could be playing some kind of shell game with us.

Also question in regards to the Lystheni @PoptartProdigy how big is there merchant marine, how many large vessels do they have and what is their capability to produce anti-ship missiles like?

The reason I ask is I'm worried they could use converted merchantmen as maybe fire ships, convert them too Arsenal ships or maybe have a few as some form of auxiliary cruisers or Q-ship.
 
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With how paranoid the Lystheni are - how sure are we that the person we are talking to is the dalatrass?
We can't be sure, but let's see what we do know:
  • They fulfill agreements we strike with this Lystheni.
  • They didn't send their best diplomat (Or did they :V).
So, why would their Dalatrass send some random minion? If in the end she is still bound by agreements, struck in these negotiations.
 
Maybe we don't want a society of paranoid nutjobs in our new nation?
I doubt they'd take annexation well, and it sounds like we'd be asking for terrorism/a Cerberus equivalent.
So? I don't want to annex them. (Personally I want to blockade them until they stop being insane and hostile.) I also don't want to commit our nation helping these paranoid nutjobs if they screw with someone else.

Unreliable allies are worse than enemies.
 
So, why would their Dalatrass send some random minion?

Maybe to cause us to underestimate them and lull us into a sense of complacency in regards to them? Stall for time so we waist precious day negotiating while they do something? Maybe hope she causes an incident to give them a casus belli (unlikely but still a possibility)? Some hierarchical thing where they sent someone well connected but not very capable? Also, inexperienced diplomats have been used in the past to go back on agreements made.

There are a lot of reasons
 
To not deliver us a hostage.
Maybe to cause us to underestimate them and lull us into a sense of complacency in regards to them? Stall for time so we waist precious day negotiating while they do something? Maybe hope she causes an incident to give them a casus belli (unlikely but still a possibility)? Some hierarchical thing where they sent someone well connected but not very capable? Also, inexperienced diplomats have been used in the past to go back on agreements made.

There are a lot of reasons
TBH I think you are overthinking this. As long as they don't break any agreements struck in these negotiations I see no reason to care whether the person opposite Mira is their Dalatrass or a nobody.
 
Maybe we don't want a society of paranoid nutjobs in our new nation?
I doubt they'd take annexation well, and it sounds like we'd be asking for terrorism/a Cerberus equivalent.

Sure.
Good way to practice landing armies, taking strongholds (Because there will be if not Stalingrads, then Brests) and generally occupying.
We can get the same sort of experience by running wargames, simulations and whatnot... But it would be longer, not as good and more chances of something slipping.

Honestly, I don't see this one as worth it.
As in, their fleet is so pathetic that they might actually be worth less than the logistic strain of supporting them.

But! It would bleed them men - most capable ones! And it would bleed them not only to Rachni claws, but to Virmire propaganda.
Unless they deliberately marginalize their military, making themselves even less capable of resisting Big Bad T'Vael.

So? I don't want to annex them. (Personally I want to blockade them until they stop being insane and hostile.) I also don't want to commit our nation helping these paranoid nutjobs if they screw with someone else.

Unreliable allies are worse than enemies.

Blockading is worse than invading in this case.
Blockade means maintaining flotillas and satellite constellations in orbit days or even weeks away from bases. Satellites we can do, ships we can't afford - you know, pangalactic genocide going on.
Invading at the same time means:
a) We get to use our army. To bleed it.
We get to rid ourselves of court generals (Something only active combat can do), to develop actual handbooks of planetary warfare in the scope of a cluster (Something that would take more time&money otherwise and be less effective to boot before we actually use it!), AND we can easily offset the losses by enrolling all these unemployed people (Sure, not officers material - but unless we screw real hard on the invasion&occupation, we would get more commanders by The Old Way).
b) As we get feet on the ground, our ships in orbit would become much more effective. And we would need less ships in orbit. And they would have a base on planet, largely easing their logistics.
Not to mention we would actually have a good chance of recovering the crew should any of the ships be shot down.
c) We get their industry, their infrastructure and their colonised world.
It's like we get free colonisation prospect of medium size already done! All we need to do is not shoot it up too much - therefore boots on the ground are needed.
 
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So? I don't want to annex them. (Personally I want to blockade them until they stop being insane and hostile.) I also don't want to commit our nation helping these paranoid nutjobs if they screw with someone else.

Unreliable allies are worse than enemies.
You asked why we'd want them independent, that implies annexation
 
Oh, I thought we'd had them set up in a tiered order of shit we'd be talked down to if needed(bad rolls), shit we'll ramp up to if they get rowdy with us.
Nope. It was a general list of everything Mira was prepared to give.
You know, if that's the case, I really wouldn't mind if our companies pull Shadowrun on them.

The government basically doesn't need to care about what happens unless something that the Companies can't afford to handle happens and the government takes control as it bails out. It'll be a bit messier, but it won't drain our resources and attention nearly as much. Might even be a good offering to get the conglomerates back on our side. Historically, thats exactly how all the European trading companies played out.

So... Economic Dependence -> Conglomerates wrestle influence from the Government -> (if) Shit happens -> Virmere takes control

As such, I believe we should set up our negotiations with these goals in mind:
  1. Plan A: Occupation, Direct Rule from Virmire
  2. Plan B: Vassalization, whole shebang with full military control and economic dependancy. Government change.
  3. Plan C: Technically independent, but with economic dependancy and with their military becoming suborned into ours. Have their officers trained in our military schools (American way of ensuring Coup supporters in Latin America). Government generally unchanged.
  4. Plan D: As with C, but economic dependancy delegated to Companies who will establish economic dominance more efficiently, but are not under direct control of our government
I'm unwilling to settle for simple Military subordination (March). Long-term compliance with Virmerean interests must be established, but actual Virmirean rule is negotiable.

Economic Dependence: Might not be an outright demand, but we can allow it to happen gradually by barring the Lystheni government from restricting our merchants, while also pushing our companies to also invest rather than exploit. Short term it'll prevent Lystheni economy from collapsing, medium term though is that our companies now hold much more influence over the Lystheni people, with the government disallowed from interfering.

As such:

-[]Demands
--[] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey). [MANDATORY]
--[] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement). [MANDATORY, Compromise negotiable, see Concessions]
--[] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command). [MANDATORY]
--[] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records). [NEGOTIABLE]
--[] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister). [NEGOTIABLE]

-[] Leverage
--[] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says). [THREATEN]
--[] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes). [THREATEN]
--[] War (make your implicit threat explicit). [THREATEN]

-[] Concessions
--[] Economic support of Lystheni interests, i.e: companies pushed to reinvest part of their profits, Virmere guarantees economic security from crashes, but not economic independence. [MAXIMUM COMPROMISE POSSIBLE]
--[] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence). [DO NOT OFFER]
--[] Lystheni Education Support: Offer to support education of Lystheni in form of scholarships to Virmerean education institutions, keep the Lystheni people competitive [PUSH FOR]
--[] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF). [NEGOTIABLE]

Basically, throw the kitchen sink at them, but at a minimum aim for an establishment of economic dependence, with long term in-roads to make sure that the best and brightest of Lystheni would be sympathetic to Virmere.

In exchange, we stop short of turning their nation into a surveilance state. @PoptartProdigy , would a vote like this be acceptable?
New write-ins are not really going to work at this stage. The big, "make the list," vote, had unrestricted write-ins for a reason; I wanted this sorted early.
We are keeping the civilians in medical quarantine right? And checking them for bugs?
Of course. Mind, they're still five days out from Virmire, since they're not sprinting, so there'll be a delay.
mmm...Materialist xenophobes? who've modded their game to get the inward perfection civic.

That's how I see the Lytheni ATM.
Materialist xenophobes who desperately believe they have the, "Inward Perfection," civic, when in reality they have, "nothing."
@PoptartProdigy
Are we still able to add leverage items in a later vote (like war), or is this our last opportunity to do so?
You can always modify your offer, right up to the point you sign something.
Point they could be playing some kind of shell game with us.

Also question in regards to the Lystheni @PoptartProdigy how big is there merchant marine, how many large vessels do they have and what is their capability to produce anti-ship missiles like?

The reason I ask is I'm worried they could use converted merchantmen as maybe fire ships, convert them too Arsenal ships or maybe have a few as some form of auxiliary cruisers or Q-ship.
They have small cargo vessels, from what you've seen, and you don't believe they've built large transport ships. Upon their theft of your frigate design, they have fusion warhead torpedoes.
 
I like Steamroller, except for demanding the Lystheni join the war effort, which I have several problems with.
  • It reveals how deeply we have penetrated their security. Only two people in their entire government knows as much as we do.
  • It allows Lystheni spies to easily access secure communications and locations, where they can more easily steal information and sabotage us.
  • The Lystheni will probably just 'stop' producing more ships and we have to spend resources to track down where they relocate their production.
Overall, I don't think its beneficial to us, even if it doesn't cost us any political capital during negotiations.
 
[X] Plan Hard Line part 2

I cannot vote to Trust the Lysenthi to join the war effort. They would be horrible to have in a fight.
 
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I like Steamroller, except for demanding the Lystheni join the war effort, which I have several problems with.
  • It reveals how deeply we have penetrated their security. Only two people in their entire government knows as much as we do.
  • It allows Lystheni spies to easily access secure communications and locations, where they can more easily steal information and sabotage us.
  • The Lystheni will probably just 'stop' producing more ships and we have to spend resources to track down where they relocate their production.
Overall, I don't think its beneficial to us, even if it doesn't cost us any political capital during negotiations.
They will never accept Steamroller. So the question is not: Do we really want to include the Lystheni in the war effort?
But rather: Do we think it is useful to use this demand to threaten them now? Will presenting this demand now make them more agreeable to future proposals?

If you think the answer to that is yes, vote Steamroller.
 
Materialist xenophobes who desperately believe they have the, "Inward Perfection," civic, when in reality they have, "nothing."
mmm...

Batarians Authoritarian (fanatical) Xenophobic oligarchy
Asari Egalitarian Xenophiles(fanatical)...kinda oligarchy?
Salarians Materialist (fanatical) pacifits
Rachnai Devouring Swarm
Reapers Driven Exterminators
Vermir...Fanatical egalitarian...xenophiles...with the idealistic foundation and beacon of liberty civics??

Its fun comparing them to Stellaris :)
 
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