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That's....not enough?
Like. I don't say that Krogans are particularly bad, I am saying they are not particularly good.
And one would think that in space future ability to churn out warships and combat suits and guns matter slightly more than big biceps.

I think the Krogans big advantage is that they conquered all of the many worlds the Rachni settled and exploited during their expansion. I mean, the Rachni were explicitly genocided and are mostly immune to orbital bombardment, so there had to be Krogan on the ground of each of their worlds, no matter how minor. Then they took over the remaining infrastructure that fuelled the Rachnis warmachine and used it for their own, with their quick reproduction and Citadel support turning minor outposts into industrial powerhouses in a few decades.

After the war, the Krogan just kept all of those worlds, plus whatever else they could grab and colonise and built them up for half a millenium.

So basically, the Krogan were the Rachni Empire come again + centuries of mostly peaceful expansion in terms of territory and industry. No wonder they could take on the galaxy and win.

We better find some time to develop our army and conquer the Rachni worlds in Attican Beta and Kepler Verge, or else those are probably going to be swarming with Krogan too after the Rachni are done for.
 
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It is certainly going to be an interesting exercise in worldbuilding for His Poptartness to try to fit Bioware's grimderp into something that makes actual sense.
Of course - butterflies.
 
The Romans staved off economic collapse by continually pushing outward. Their economy was driven by war. Notice how they collapsed when they could no longer support this.
It's both worse and better than that.

Pro your point, the Romans also lived in an era when wealth existed in the form of chunks of gold and animal herds that you could conveniently carry away from a country in the process of looting it. That doesn't work very reliably now, because the wealth you get from processes of consensual trade and interaction is so much more important than the wealth you can loot by scrapping those processes and stealing whatever isn't nailed down.

Contra your point... the Roman Empire reached its furthest extent some time between, oh, 50 and 100 AD, but held together rather well for centuries after that time. What really broke down the Roman Empire was the collapse of its original political institutions in the Crisis of the Third Century, followed by a tougher wave of barbarian invasions in the fifth century than it was prepared to deal with in the reformed (but somewhat weaker) state it occupied during the fourth century.

Politics as religion refused. Sticking to the Roman example.
The British Empire is also religion-neutral, so I will use that to point out that looting wars can do and have succeeded.
Other people asking you for evidence to support a positive claim is not "politics as religion."

Honestly, I'd like evidence that the British Empire made net economic gains out of looting wars. Furthermore, evidence that it could make those gains absent massive technological advantages ("whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun and they have not")



As an aside about Krogans.
IMO Bioware fucked up when they basically transplanted Orks into ME without regard for "in space, guns should be more important than tough biology".
With Rachni it made more sense; I have no idea how on earth Krogans manages the "logistics" part of interstellar warfare against Citadel space; Rachni had an excuse in "hivemind", "time to prepare" and "Reapers did it". The only thing going for Krogans is post-Rachni-War decline in militaries and Krogans getting some time to expand before anybody thought (or had political capital) to reign them in.
Like, when they were at war against Rachni, they had Citadel handling the industry part; but Krogans were not that great at industry or whatever, so how come they were succeeding enough to warrant genophage? IMO, it's kind of silly grimderp-inducing move by the Bioware more than anything.
I imagine it more as a case of the Citadel constantly needing to authorize armed expeditions to suppress the krogans, all the damn time, which the Council of quiet tea parties between a carefully chosen Matriarch and a carefully chosen Dalatrass was unhappy with doing. Eventually they found the turians who were willing to take care of thwacking the krogans with a rolled-up newspaper every couple of years...

But it was in large part the decision to entrust handling of the 'krogan problem' to the turians, while continuing the salarians' research into exotic means of limiting the 'problem,' that led to the genophage. Because turians don't play.

"If you want a problem shot, ask a turian."
 
Sorry, not touching this with a ten-foot barge pole with a health inspector on the end.
I was an idiot, should have known I would trigger the religious response. <Bad Grognard, smack on nose>
What are you even talking about, you made an assertion then someone asked for evidence, that is pretty much the opposite of religion.
The one acting most like some sort of religious fundamentalist here is you.
 
Sorry, not touching this with a ten-foot barge pole with a health inspector on the end.
I was an idiot, should have known I would trigger the religious response. <Bad Grognard, smack on nose>

This, uh...really sounds like more of a "you" problem. You're using "religion" as a bit of a conversational bludgeon that seems to cover such innocuous behaviors as "doubting your claims, providing evidence for said doubt, and asking for your own evidence in a mildly sarcastic way." I kinda feel like you're expecting a certain response and therefore seeing it where it's not.
 
This, uh...really sounds like more of a "you" problem. You're using "religion" as a bit of a conversational bludgeon that seems to cover such innocuous behaviors as "doubting your claims, providing evidence for said doubt, and asking for your own evidence in a mildly sarcastic way." I kinda feel like you're expecting a certain response and therefore seeing it where it's not.
Perhaps it was a me problem. This is why I apologized to @pbluekan .

I have tried to debate with Americans in the past.
Perfectly reasonable people fall back on dogma as soon as the religious reflex is triggered.
'Wait, a Democrat/Republican said that the sun will rise in the east?
'I am going to need positive proof of that.
'I am sorry, but that it has always done so is not enough proof because Democrats/Republicans Always Lie and/or are Always Mistaken
'Please provide positive proof that the sun will rise in the east, failure to do so shows that I am correct that the True Faith of Republic/Democrat is Correct'

In this case I triggered 'Republicans can Never do anything which will be Good For America Except by Sheer Accident'

Soo no guys. Regrets but barge pole health inspector.
 
In this case I triggered 'Republicans can Never do anything which will be Good For America Except by Sheer Accident'

I'm...really not seeing any reason to assume that that was the response provoked. As opposed to "I think you're wrong, I have this source backing me up, what's your source?" Like...that's a perfectly valid move in a discussion and specific factual claims like "the Iraq War was profitable for the USA" are not at all as obvious as "the sun rises in the East." People can doubt your claims for reasons other than being blinded by ideology.
 
The Romans staved off economic collapse by continually pushing outward. Their economy was driven by war. Notice how they collapsed when they could no longer support this.
Yeah the Western part of their empire collapsed... three centuries after they stopped expanding. This is if you ignore the Eastern part of the empire, which existed for another millennium after that. To blame the collapse of the Western Roman Empire on a lack of expansion is a gross misrepresentation of the actual causes behind the fall.
 
Yeah the Western part of their empire collapsed... three centuries after they stopped expanding. This is if you ignore the Eastern part of the empire, which existed for another millennium after that. To blame the collapse of the Western Roman Empire on a lack of expansion is a gross misrepresentation of the actual causes behind the fall.
You HAVE to simplify when you are teaching, these are children after all.

School: Water is incompressible, you can use this to get accurate result when measuring gas volumes.
Post-School: Yeah this project for the Navy measures how the compressibility of water changes with depth and salinity.

School: The Roman Empire was funded by looting. When distance and time forced them to stop, they collapsed a century later.
Post-School: Well its actually complex ...

Sadly most of us can only move on to complexity in ONE field, so we have school knowledge in all others.
 
You HAVE to simplify when you are teaching, these are children after all.

School: Water is incompressible, you can use this to get accurate result when measuring gas volumes.
Post-School: Yeah this project for the Navy measures how the compressibility of water changes with depth and salinity.

School: The Roman Empire was funded by looting. When distance and time forced them to stop, they collapsed a century later.
Post-School: Well its actually complex ...

Sadly most of us can only move on to complexity in ONE field, so we have school knowledge in all others.
I didn't say it was a simplification, I said it was a misrepresentation. Those are two different things. The Roman Empire didn't collapse due to the fact that the military and economic strength of the late republic and early empire was primarily built on looting conquered territories. That's simply factually wrong.

Also, this isn't grade school. People are (hopefully) held to a higher standard on this forum than actual children.
 
I didn't say it was a simplification, I said it was a misrepresentation. Those are two different things. The Roman Empire didn't collapse due to the fact that the military and economic strength of the late republic and early empire was primarily built on looting conquered territories. That's simply factually wrong.

Also, this isn't grade school. People are (hopefully) held to a higher standard on this forum than actual children.
Demandt listed 210 theories as to why the Roman Empire fell, with generally no two historians agreeing on any fifty.
I am curious as to how you can state that lack of looting is incontrovertibly wrong.
 
298,000, actually (I applied the Explorer Corps hit earlier), but thanks for pointing this out!
You're welcome.
I think I'd like to keep the location of military bases under our control for the near future,
Why? We only have 2 Military Planets on the list; after this choice, that leaves only 1 Military Planet.
I wouldn't assume it's so ridiculous. It may be unwinnable in the long run, but you can make good arguments for the evolution of party politics being one of the major failure modes of democracy.
We're a multi-species polity. Anything that fosters peaceful, productive trans-species organization, political or otherwise, is something that it's in our best interests to foster, given the natural fracture points that already exist in our society.

A situation where an entire species was mostly voting a volus supremacist candidate as a joke is not good for society.
Mira needs to be thinking in the longer term beyond her rule, and establishing norms of behavior for political organizations, rather than futilely attempting to stamp them out; all that does is drive them underground. Channel the flow, don't stand in front of the tide.

Furthermore, Kirae mentioned having been part of the effort who engineered the bloc asari vote for the batarian former PM.
Ergo, they already exist, only with the arrangements being made in quiet backrooms. Better to bring those things out where transparency acts as a check on certain types of dealmaking.

EDIT
Besides, more generally, parties enfranchise the poor and civilian to have a voice in the selection of political candidates before they even get to the polls.
The rich and powerful do not need parties to distort the political process, and are advantaged by the lack of any existing political centers to impede them.
In the long term I think our goal should be to liberate as much space as we can once the Rachni are clearly losing, in order to lay claim to it after the war.
Not really seeing why? Last thing we want to do is overstretch.
And I will point out that the Salarians hold only two clusters, and are a Tier 1 polity regardless.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The Republic of Rannoch
Executive Briefing
Firstly, kudos on coming up with something that looks like a plausible ancestor of the Admiralty Board setup we see in canon.
Well done.

I'm getting a very Roman Republic feel from this writeup, with almost a 1:1 correspondence between the quarian Senators here and the Roman senatorial families of OTL. And tons of nepotism in play, because regardless of how meritocratic they say their system is, I note the lack of any actual political power shared with the plebes, and there is no indication that the quarians are magically immune to corruption and complacency.

Given it's lack of an executive, this governmental design lends itself very much to policy paralysis and infighting, and is inherently unstable given how it disenfranchises its plebes. And the fact that they abandoned the galactic stage to the asari and salarians rather than risk cultural contamination is a pretty good indicator they realize how fragile their system is. Their cultural immune system is weak, so to speak.

This is especially noticeable when you consider that the asari's best buds are salarians, who are basically a neofeudal society whose politics are managed by dalatrasses. And yet their government feels no threat of Asari cultural subversion.
Rannoch is overdue for a Caesar-type to harness the disenfranchised and throw everything into chaos.

I foresee Rannoch being a big headache for us post-war; too big to ignore the way we ignore the lystheni.
The politicians are unlikely to be thrilled at the return of hundreds of thousands of veterans exposed to alien ways of doing things, regardless of what's said in public. Not once they begin to talk.

On the brightside?
We may see quarian immigration post-war, depending on what their migration policies are like.
Assuming we figure out quarian medical requirements.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Wouldn't the mere fact of Mira T'Vael and Lissa S'Voi successfully leading Virmire for decades upset Asari Republics' internal policies? After all, they're maidens, and in asari culture maidens aren't held as particularly capable - to the point of entire theories and fields of study being disregarded due to youth of the researcher.
That's after about 2800 years of canon.
This is much earlier in the timeline. Do not assume that things are anywhere as ossified as they are in canon, and the ferment of the years of war are putting even more things in flux.

Note how while Mira is a Maiden, her best friend, who followed her to Virmire, is a Matron.
Kirai has actually been very up-front with you about this.
Kirai has been unstintingly professional during her tenure. She has been critical of your handling of the financial crackdown, but never disrespectful. By all indications, she works tirelessly to the benefit of both the government and you personally.
This works for me.
We expect people to have their personal biases; as long as they're up front about them, do not subvert final decisions, and are competent? No problem.
Exposure to a variety of opinions is a good thing; it prevents groupthink, and reduces the likelihood of something blindsiding us out of the blue.

But then, she *would* be that way in any event.
The lady is effectively our chief of staff, which is one of the most powerful positions in a political administration.
Think a cross between Karl Rove, Rahm Emmanuel and John Podesta. Only much better looking.
Of course she'd be this way regardless of her opinions.

It's very, very hard to be sure she's not playing a double game.
She's still only Intrigue 20 vs Shurna's Intrigue 23, and Shurna has an entire Ministry behind her.
Not to mention that she's been cut off from Citadel space for at least sixteen years. And only approached us seven or eight years into our tenure.
If she was an active agent of the Citadel, I think she would have been much more proactive about doing something about Corruption McFucker

I suspect Kirae is just what she seems: A connected asari matriarch with Opinions and Concerns, but no actual employer.
Probably has an Interesting backstory; I would not be surprised to find she retired here after working for Asari Republic Intelligence, or something similar.

As an aside about Krogans.
ME is a RPG-shooter. The races were tailored with that in mind, hence the krogan.
Because honestly, if it was a space game, the salarians would be a better bet for a galactic threat than the krogan, whose only relevant trait was their ability to breed fast.

Maybe they were just better at taking that infrastructure intact from others and somehow steamrollered that way. Endless Krogan boarding parties.
Antimatter does not care how good you are at boarding other people's property; it will destroy it regardless. And antimatter was in wide use by the time of the Rachni wars.

Also, robust biology => skimping on environmental protection, discipline of labour force and the like.
But the krogan portrayed in the series are terrible workers. Undisciplined. Prone to berserking in a bloodrage.
Too stubborn to take instruction or orders, even among old soldiers who should know better.
Maybe they were different pre-war, but nobody says so.

Industrial war is way more reliant on logistics and supply than how gnarly your footsoldiers are. More depends on teamwork and cooperation than personal prowess.How good your nations is at mining, and turning that mined material into ships and guns matters more than how many bullets your infantry can survive.

Bullets are cheap, after all; if the soldier can survive 1 bullet, shoot him with 19 more.

The krogan, no matter how good they've been portrayed as on the ground, have no particular edge in space, which is where war would be decided. Or in producing the materials that fuel a war machine. Nor do they have the political organization necessary for total war.
It makes no sense to anyone who takes a hard look at them.
 
But the krogan portrayed in the series are terrible workers. Undisciplined. Prone to berserking in a bloodrage.
Too stubborn to take instruction or orders, even among old soldiers who should know better.
Maybe they were different pre-war, but nobody says so.

Industrial war is way more reliant on logistics and supply than how gnarly your footsoldiers are. More depends on teamwork and cooperation than personal prowess.How good your nations is at mining, and turning that mined material into ships and guns matters more than how many bullets your infantry can survive.

Bullets are cheap, after all; if the soldier can survive 1 bullet, shoot him with 19 more.

The krogan, no matter how good they've been portrayed as on the ground, have no particular edge in space, which is where war would be decided. Or in producing the materials that fuel a war machine. Nor do they have the political organization necessary for total war.
It makes no sense to anyone who takes a hard look at them.
With the technology we've got, we should be able to construct drones. Lots and lots and lots of drones, making the grunt war a simple extension of industrial might, logistics and operating.
 
Otherwise...well, if that 10-dreadnought fleet decides to pay us a beating, we will have trouble. Seeing as it was a garrison fleet...I'd rather keep raiding instead of hoping we can turtle this all out.
The 10-dreadnought fleet was pulled from multiple garrisons bordering Attican Beta. Not one. It was the Rachni equivalent of a scratch fleet, which, were it not for hivemind shenanigans, would probably have been rather weaker than an actual dedicated major fleet.

Antimatter does not care how good you are at boarding other people's property; it will destroy it regardless. And antimatter was in wide use by the time of the Rachni wars.
See front page: Antimatter is not in wide use. (Lore post, under Technology.) And sure, scorched-earth works to wipe out Rachni infrastructure... but it's really hard to exploit radioactive, glassy rubble. I believe the idea that was being put forward was that the Krogan were able to take Rachni planets with infrastructure relatively intact, which allowed for more than resource-denial. *shrug*
 
We already did, just not in time to save a large number of injured.
Not just drugs for the injured. I'm talking about their immune system issues outside of Rannoch.
Maybe it just hasn't gotten as bad as canon; this is eighteen hundred years before the Morning War. Given that we see at least one quarian being chatted up by Kurik outside her hardsuit, that's possible. Who knows.

With the technology we've got, we should be able to construct drones. Lots and lots and lots of drones, making the grunt war a simple extension of industrial might, logistics and operating.
Pretty much.
As long as you have orbital superiority, you exploit it mercilessly and dump munitions on every battlespace.
For every enemy command center, a missile; for every infantryman, a flying suicide drone to the face.

But Mass Effect was created as a shooter, and getting your brave infantryman ganked by a swarm of drones remote controlled by some adolescent salarian sipping Mountain Dew and eating chips would not have sold the game.

EDIT
See front page: Antimatter is not in wide use. (Lore post, under Technology.) And sure, scorched-earth works to wipe out Rachni infrastructure... but it's really hard to exploit radioactive, glassy rubble. I believe the idea that was being put forward was that the Krogan were able to take Rachni planets with infrastructure relatively intact, which allowed for more than resource-denial. *shrug*
We were talking about the events of the Krogan Rebellions three or four hundred years uptime, not the Rachni Wars. Antimatter was a thing then, and I'm pointing out there was zero incentive for anyone to leave their infrastructure behind to be exploited by the krogans.

Not after the lessons of the rachni war.
 
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Demandt listed 210 theories as to why the Roman Empire fell, with generally no two historians agreeing on any fifty.
I am curious as to how you can state that lack of looting is incontrovertibly wrong.
Without going too much in depth because this is really off-topic. The length of time between the end of large scale looting by Rome in the west and the collapse of roman power doesn't support the hypothesis.
 
Perhaps it was a me problem. This is why I apologized to @pbluekan .

I have tried to debate with Americans in the past.
Perfectly reasonable people fall back on dogma as soon as the religious reflex is triggered.
'Wait, a Democrat/Republican said that the sun will rise in the east?
'I am going to need positive proof of that.
'I am sorry, but that it has always done so is not enough proof because Democrats/Republicans Always Lie and/or are Always Mistaken
'Please provide positive proof that the sun will rise in the east, failure to do so shows that I am correct that the True Faith of Republic/Democrat is Correct'

In this case I triggered 'Republicans can Never do anything which will be Good For America Except by Sheer Accident'

Soo no guys. Regrets but barge pole health inspector.
Honestly, no one mentioned republicans or democrats, you just seem to have had this weird kneejerk reaction.
I'm pretty sure most Democrats voted for the Iraq war too.
 
Without going too much in depth because this is really off-topic. The length of time between the end of large scale looting by Rome in the west and the collapse of roman power doesn't support the hypothesis.
Certainly the lack of 'infinite money, the sinews of war' would not have helped.
Are you a Gibbon fan then 'It's the Christians'?
I favor the latifundia idea myself.
 
We were talking about the events of the Krogan Rebellions three or four hundred years uptime, not the Rachni Wars. Antimatter was a thing then, and I'm pointing out there was zero incentive for anyone to leave their infrastructure behind to be exploited by the krogans.

Not after the lessons of the rachni war.
They haven't had yet the lesson of 'SUPERVISE your sepoy troops closely.' So, I could see it happen, with someone drawing global economy graphs accelerating exponentially, gleefully rubbing its main manipulators.
 
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