Xenomorphs, Klingons, Treecats, Loroi or Morrigi?
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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest
- Location
- Somewhere near L1... I think
Andalites
Magic_Pal
On long term vacations in hell
- Location
- Poland
@PoptartProdigy is that a possibility?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think you may have slightly misunderstood why I proposed this idea in the first place.
If Mira T'Vael or her duly chosen representative goes to the Council in good faith, in full honesty, and lays the facts on the table, the facts will look something like:
"The overwhelming majority of Virmireans feel at least some negative sentiment to the Council for abandoning us. Support for some form of independence is overwhelming; if we were an asari-style direct democracy of all our citizens, we would have already declared independence. There is literally no way that Virmire can be administered as a colony directly owned and controlled by the Council. "
"Furthermore, Virmireans have worked very hard, sacrificed a great deal, and taken many risks while living in terrible danger, to build up the fleet and territory you now see. We were making considerable contributions to the Citadel war effort during decades when you didn't even know we were still alive, having left us for dead. We have now built up a military-industrial complex comparable to that of several interstellar species, including a network of colonies."
"I may be able to convince my people not to declare independence if we are granted a level of concessions that is commensurate with our military strength and established contributions to the war effort. But if you don't offer us a dramatically better deal than the status quo ante bellum in place before you abandoned us, or if you try to take Sentry Omega out from under us, I can't justify going home and telling my constituents anything other than "well, time to dust off that declaration of independence." "
I don't see how that is anything other than an attempt to negotiate in good faith. We really mean all of that, it's all true. Virmire is in fact in a political position where most of its population would honestly prefer independence (with all the associated risks) over any deal with the Council that involves subjugation or being treated like squatters for trying to colonize Sentry Omega and establish bases in Attican Beta and the Kepler Verge.
Yes; I'm betting on this to happen.
The salarians can easily claim "Oh, this salarian splinter colony? Ours!" It is likely the main reason they didn't do so was because of one of those cozy matriarch-dalatrass teatimes I was talking about earlier. If Virmire is no longer a Council-administered colony and is making problematic claims to own all of Sentry Omega in fee simple... Well, the status quo under which that wasn't being pressed just evaporated.
None of this means the salarians like the Lystheni, but they don't need to like the Lystheni for this to work.
(Incidentally, the current two-race Council system means that a hung vote is possible, so the only actions that get taken are ones both the matriarch and the dalatrass agree on, which is actually probably a pretty good system)
You know, that would explain a lot..
And yet legally, that is what is happening. She might have some indirect informal influence, but if over 50% of the Assembly is bound and determined to write the declaration a certain way, it will get written that way, and it will get passed whether Mira likes it or not. And to stop it, Mira would probably have to exert so much behind-the-scenes pressure that the Assembly could blackmail us as "she ACTED like she wanted a declaration in public, but look what she said and did to us when we tried to write it!"
The true feelings of the people are clearly pro-independence (at least as an alternative to the prewar status quo).
So what? The fact that independence is genuinely popular doesn't mean that corporate representatives can't use an independence bill to their advantage.
The entire point here is that they can use the popularity of their blank check "bill to pass a bill" as a way to intimidate us into not vetoing, and then giving them a blank check. Sure, that blank check has to actually include a declaration of independence, but it can also include pretty much anything else they want.
That would be an extremely good reason for us to veto said blank documents, and publicly state that we will NOT sign our name to a blank check made out to the legislature.
We could even publicly state that this is our main reason for not passing the bill.
Which is yet another good re keep voting...
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
Since when do people stop coveting the goose that lays the golden eggs just because said goose quacks "INDEPENDENCE KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY GOLDEN EGGS!" in a loud voice?
The flip side of this is, do you want to establish a constitutional precedent on Virmire that the assembly can pass a blank check "bill to pass a bill," ramrod it past Mira or her successor because it's too popular to veto a "bill to pass a bill" on this subject... then write the bill however it wants?
Because given that Virmire still has problems with powerful corporate influence, that could go very, very badly. How much pork and corruption do you think the legislature can pack into a bill once they've got themselves a guaranteed immunity from veto? How many unpopular but corporation-enriching riders do you think they can add to a bill that nominally does something popular, if they've got a guaranteed immunity from veto?
Right now the veto is the main check on the Assembly's power, and the Assembly is a very new and untried body whose precise interests and affiliations are still unknown. Even if we want them to have more power in the long run, now is not the time to start delegating all responsibility for the exact wording of important legislation, and giving them a blank check that says "I promise I won't veto this."
If you don't care about that issue, we have some serious reasons to differ.
Firstly, breezily dismissing the rachni as a small short-term problem seems unwise. Actually surviving the war matters a lot.
Secondly, the Citadel won't stop trying to reabsorb us just because we declare independence. The Council has thousands of years to mess with us, many subtle and effective tools of economic warfare and propaganda to do so, and a variety of pretexts that would give it the excuse to try.
Seriously. A declaration of independence is not a barrier shield. It doesn't keep out everything, and it doesn't mean people outside your sphere of influence stop wanting what you have.
Yes, but that cuts both ways. They won't declare eternal hatred of us for declaring independence.
But at the same time, the asari won't stop thinking of Virmire as "actually the Citadel's" for hundreds of years at least. The salarians may view our independence as status quo... but salarians like changing the status quo, remember?
If we are independent and outside the Citadel system of power, the Council has every reason to erode our own power so that it can add bits of that power to the Citadel and the Council. We're going to have to spend a very long period of time dealing with the Council's active, ongoing, and subtle efforts to carry out that erosion.
- Location
- Austria
Come to think of it, this. This here is some SovCit-tier line of thinking, that if you say magical ritual people will be obligated to treat you in a certain way.
And it's...not how it works, honestly.
Which is why starting out on friendly terms so that we get sympathizers there who'd lobby with our independence in mind or be willing to spread our take on it in their infosphere when we declare matters.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Especially when there are, as Poptart has specifically pointed out, no precedents for a Council colony declaring independence. The Council has only existed for a few hundred years; Virmire is the first major world settled under its aegis to have the incentive and opportunity to seek independence.
There are certainly no precedents for a Council colony declaring independence and gaining territorial rights outside its own star system.
The Council has no particular reason to even think that "Council world can declare independence and get to keep a whole cluster to itself" is even a thing, if they don't feel like it should be a thing.
- Location
- Leicester UK
Right now eroding our power will not improve theirs in any way so that's not an immediate issue. If the war situation changes to a point where citadel forces are capable of showing up and projecting meaningful force then that's a viable reason to consider rejoining the Citadel, your argument assumes declaring independence now means we will not consider or be able to rejoin once the situation changes and the Citadel is actually capable off assuming the responsibility of leadership again.
It is disingenuous to repeat your vote.
@PoptartProdigy
Vote closing soon? The numbers have been fairly constant for the last 24 hours and Pass has a clear lead over Veto. At this point people are just repeating themselves.
- Location
- Ural, Russia, Earth
You know, if something like this really happens, we'll want to be fully independent from the Citadel at this moment.
Because I expect the Lystheni make some glorious last stand in the best tradition of Salarians; sabotage, assasinations and terrorism against every the Citadel's holding they could reach. Which means against Virmire.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
This is almost certainly going to happen only if we have already declared independence, simply because if the salarians wanted the Lystheni back they could probably have found and claimed them. The reason for the salarians claiming control over the Lystheni wouldn't be because it values the Lystheni, it would be to crowbar open more negotiating room for themselves to lay claim to planets and economic opportunities in Sentry Omega.
Which they'd be trying to do in the face of a much weaker negotiating opponent who has little leverage with the Citadel. Namely, us.
It is very likely that exactly this will be the case. A strong Virmire independence movement means a 'ratchet effect.' Once a nation declares independence, it is going to be very reluctant to stop and merge with the original body once again. We might outflank this by declaring independence now and seeking associate member status later or something, but I have my doubts.
Would you mind expanding on that? Because you are asserting my insincerity.
Are we? This is a new argument that I don't think you're acknowledging. There was a sudden surge of "pass" votes when Poptart posted to affirm the (previously implied) fact that the majority of the Virmire population was pro-independence. If we'd cut the vote off shortly after that time, a number of Pass votes would not have gotten counted.
Just four hours ago Poptart had to emphasize to people
(struck-through part was inaccurate on a closer read, thank you @nat401 for bringing that to my attention)
That is significant information. It is "new" in the sense that it might reasonably impact people's decisions, and that based on their own statements, at least some of the Pass voters were not aware of it before. There seemed to be an understanding- for that matter, an understanding on my part- that we'd have great influence over the tone of the declaration of independence if we voted Pass. From the sound of it, that isn't going to be the case.
The last time Poptart added information to the thread, it was to comment on the popularity of independence among the Virmire population. Pass got a considerable boost out of that. I think we should at least give voters an evening's worth of time (for the many US quest participants) or a morning to wake up (for the Aussie participants) and digest the implications of what they're giving up by voting Pass.
...
Now, I understand that as you said, you don't want the thread to get to vote on the declaration of independence or its contents. Your words were:
I can comprehend that argument, but it needs to be advanced openly. If we should pass this not only because we want independence but because we don't want input on it, then that argument needs to be sold to the voters separately.
We shouldn't have a situation where the thread gives up its influence over a key point in the game's history like "Virmire Declaration of Independence" because most of the voters were under the false impression that they would still get to have that influence after having voted to give the legislature a blank check.
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- Location
- Leicester UK
Nope
The individual who asked Poptart for clarification did not disbelieve what they had previously been told, your literally making that up.
I dont think the vote should be closed but no need to distort what actually happened.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Only if you let them.
Other races being present within Sentry Omega is possible in the sense that it's present on some of my loot charts for survey missions. No comment on likelihoods.
You did say that, yes. I was responding to somebody else, and what they suggested was making it publicly known that you planned on using independence as a bludgeon in negotiations. Saying, "This is my political reality, Madame Councilor, my people demand this, here are a few things to help you relate it to your own political realities and build empathy, let's please work out a solution so we can all walk away satisfied," is a far cry from, "No, Virmireans, you don't get independence, but don't worry, I'll threaten the Citadel into giving us shinies by using us declaring independence as a heavy blunt object." It opens negotiations with a hostile dynamic as opposed to a cooperative one. While both describe the same exchange (Virmire bargains the independence movement to secure concessions), one approaches the negotiation as a discussion, and one approaches it as a hostage situation.
My other quest is due an update first. No reason to close before then.
Let's all stay civil, though, folks. It is getting a little more heated.
By repeating your vote you are attempting to give the impression that more votes are being cast for 'veto', thus suggesting that the vote count is still in flux. It is insincere because you presenting a false situation.
[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Other vote trends have solidified.
Wonder how Lystheni keeps their navy and population fed at the same time, Salarian's faster life cycle still requires more resources; so are the claiming colonies?
edit: of course ninjas exists.
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- Location
- Minnesota
[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I dunno, maybe they just have 2% of their population working on agriculture instead of 1% of the population like all the other post-industrial economies. Feeding everyone might be harder with salarians, but feeding everyone is so easy for a modern economy that isn't short on agricultural land that it hardly matters.
And childrearing probably isn't taking up a disproportionate share of salarians' time, because they learn, develop, and mature at double speed just like they do everything else at double speed. The proportion of their lifecycle spent being taught, guarded, watched, and 'raised' by other salarians is about the same, as I understand it.
I suppose...?
I mean, I imagine Mira saying something to the Assembly like "You know what I think? I think the Council will be prepared to grant us a lot more recognition, and acknowledge our claim to [wide stretch of space], after all we've done. If they are, we save ourselves a LOT of trouble dealing with all the sneaky crap that will get thrown at us to try to subvert our autonomy after this war blows over. If they aren't, then we can tell them to go play hopscotch in a minefield."
And to me that doesn't sound like a bad faith negotiation. It sounds more like, say, a union local talking among themselves and saying to each other "okay, if management comes through and offers us this and this, great. If not, we're going to go on strike." Discussing that among themselves is not the same as approaching the negotiations with management in bad faith, I would think?
Of course, this is in addition to other things Mira might say like "And don't you ever expect me to sign a blank check again, I'm not signing away my right to veto legislation before I've read what's in the legislation."
Your analysis seems to be based on the notion that I believe our questgoers are a gullible and superstitious lot, which I do not. The false situation I am 'presenting' is in your own mind.
I also find it amusing that he post immediately after yours was a vote cast for "Veto," which you had just confidently assumed was not happening anymore.
Any distortion was unintentional.
That said, many people have done this, have assumed that we'd get more input than we apparently do. Enjou, specifically, appears not to have fallen into this trap, but he is one of the several dozen Pass voters. I'm not sure what the rest of them think.
And, again, I definitely do not want us to vote away our ability as a thread to influence the tone and terms of Virmire's Declaration of Independence, just because we're in a hurry to get it passed.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
It isn't a blank check bill, it is a declaration of intent. If we really want to, we will probably be able to veto the actual declaration once they get to writing it. They will probably vote on the text itself, and we can veto at this time if the document is ludicrous. If that's not how it works, we should probably put some pressure to ensure there is a vote on the actual declaration. But I doubt it's needed because I doubt they would do anything without votes.
If the yes wins, we have some time to act on them and the people to shape the actual declaration.
It's not a blank check because they won't write it in isolation, even if we say yes.