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We have no control over the wording of this declaration. It could call the Citadel war criminals and murderers, declare "Virmire space" inviolate and Citadel military ships enemies of Virmire.
That's just scaremongering, just because we dont control the wording doesn't mean we will be forced to basically declare war on the Citadel, whatever we sign has to stick to a declaration of independence and nothing more.
Yes, of course there are reasons to consider independence, at some point. None of them are reasons to let a bunch of populists decide the timing and content and risk the war effort.
That's just an opinion, not an argument, I think letting people who have been under constant siege for years after being abandoned a reason to feel strong and proud instead of scared and worried to be a perfectly viable reason to declare now.
When we get in contact, eventually we won't be able to lie to the Citadel about why this happened.
What? I dont think the Citadel is going to be able to find out what our thoughts were as we decide to veto or not then objectively prove what they were.
 
You know, it makes no sense that Mira would have no control over the wording in the declaration just because she's passed authorization to make a draft. The making of a declaration of independence like this would be done through the political process, and likely go through several revisions before the final draft is approved of by the Assembly. Leaders in executive branches of government do work with their legislative branches, and ones that have a mandate from the people have a great deal of pull to get their agendas passed. Mira getting involved in the process of drafting something this important should be a given, and her incredible popularity pretty much guarantees that she'd have an immense amount of influence over what the final draft would contain.

@PoptartProdigy has said a couple of times, the way to redraft/poll/revise is... Veto. The assembly is going to pass a bill authorising them to write this binding declaration.
 
That's just scaremongering, just because we dont control the wording doesn't mean we will be forced to basically declare war on the Citadel, whatever we sign has to stick to a declaration of independence and nothing more.

No? We have literally no idea what the text is, and "Virmire First" is not an encouraging slogan to march under.

That's just an opinion, not an argument, I think letting people who have been under constant siege for years after being abandoned a reason to feel strong and proud instead of scared and worried to be a perfectly viable reason to declare now.

You cannot shoot Rachni with pride and feeling of strength, we are not in Gurren Lagann.
 
No? We have literally no idea what the text is, and "Virmire First" is not an encouraging slogan to march under.
Why do people keep crying about a jokey reference to real world politics? We were told not to read into that and yet people still are...
You cannot shoot Rachni with pride and feeling of strength, we are not in Gurren Lagann.
No but you can keep workers trying their hardest and the recruitment offices full with it.
 
That's just scaremongering, just because we dont control the wording doesn't mean we will be forced to basically declare war on the Citadel, whatever we sign has to stick to a declaration of independence and nothing more.

That's just an opinion, not an argument, I think letting people who have been under constant siege for years after being abandoned a reason to feel strong and proud instead of scared and worried to be a perfectly viable reason to declare now.

What? I dont think the Citadel is going to be able to find out what our thoughts were as we decide to veto or not then objectively prove what they were.

Yikes. Declarations tend to describe the crimes and faults of the former master...

The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

Maybe not war, but certainly could be insulting, and make cooperation with their forces much more complicated. Who is a hypothetical Salarian admiral more likely to risk his fleet for?

People already feel strong and proud. Check the response to the medical school investment program. Unbridled joy, supreme morale. Not a problem.

Citadel doesn't need to find our thoughts, they'll have all the network access, media coverage, interviews, plus probably Citadel sympathisers passing info.
 
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Why do people keep crying about a jokey reference to real world politics? We were told not to read into that and yet people still are...

What does this have to do with real world politics?
(and for that matter who is "crying"?)
Virmire is not "first", it's not somehow more important than any other planets with sapient species. It is one of the many, and any piece of rhetoric which is centered around placing this particular planet over others is to be viewed with suspicion.
There is a cogent argument to be made about independence being necessary considering our difference in approach to X, Y and Z compared to Citadelspace and thus need for independent governance. Or how our space is unique in X, Y and Z (probably indeed unique in that it's a nation of immigrants and are Virmirean, not Salarian/Asari/whoever). Those are reasonable arguments for the necessity of self-governance, albeit premature ones for quite a lot of reasons.

It does not make us first, because saying something is "First" necessarily implies everybody else is "Second", and fuck that.

No but you can keep workers trying their hardest and the recruitment offices full with it.

They already are though; we don't need independence for it.
 
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yeah we performed an end run around the mega corps so their influence is most likely not as vast in the assembly as you are making out ctuluslp. this is more than likely the true feelings of the people from WOG it is mainly only the Asari Matriarchs that are in any way against independance
 
yeah we performed an end run around the mega corps so their influence is most likely not as vast in the assembly as you are making out ctuluslp. this is more than likely the true feelings of the people from WOG it is mainly only the Asari Matriarchs that are in any way against independance
Even if it is, declaring now is at best still short sighted, most likely counterproductive and at worst catastrophic to the war effort.
 
Megacorps pushed for Council and thus had a hand in composing the draft, they have no reason to give Mira any input if they can help it.
A pretty smart play by them: they can claim they were behind independence if passes, blame us for vetoing it and making Nativist opponent if we veto it, blame us for not vetoing it if if tanks our relationship with Citadel and blows something up down the line. Nice political move against us, and if it fucks
up our society or threatens war effort? Well, who cares. It, too, can be spun as an attack against us after all, and those who call the shots in Assembly or fund candidates are not the ones on the frontline.

edit: Plus, like, I am half-sure that declaration would conventiently remove some regulations from them, in a stunning coincidence.

Actually, making the Assembly was Mira's move. The corporations where going to try to undermine her by proposing it, but Mira found out before they did and implemented it before they could use it against her, allowing her side to get much more influence than the version the corporations would have tried to build. And it should be remembered that while the corporations will have influence of their own, the representatives are still democratically elected and as such having the approval of an absurdly popular executive leader is something that can ensure they get re-elected when their term is up.

@PoptartProdigy has said a couple of times, the way to redraft/poll/revise is... Veto. The assembly is going to pass a bill authorising them to write this binding declaration.

And I'm saying that makes no sense. This is just authorizing them to make a draft. While we can't force particular wording into the draft they'd be making since they'd be the ones writing it and approving the final draft to be sent to Mira's desk, Mira not having any capacity to influence the final draft just flies in the face of how actual political processes work. @PoptartProdigy?
 
yeah we performed an end run around the mega corps so their influence is most likely not as vast in the assembly as you are making out ctuluslp. this is more than likely the true feelings of the people from WOG it is mainly only the Asari Matriarchs that are in any way against independance

I am not sure what is the corporate influence on this assembly tbh. We did outplay them, but to what degree?
I mean, "true feelings" are easily manipulated by bbbasically anyone? And they changed fast. So.
 
I am not sure what is the corporate influence on this assembly tbh. We did outplay them, but to what degree?
I mean, "true feelings" are easily manipulated by bbbasically anyone? And they changed fast. So.
There was a whole series of vid interviews in one game where Shepard could influence public opinion and I think war readiness, so there is some precedence.
 
And I'm saying that makes no sense. This is just authorizing them to make a draft. While we can't force particular wording into the draft they'd be making since they'd be the ones writing it and approving the final draft to be sent to Mira's desk, Mira not having any capacity to influence the final draft just flies in the face of how actual political processes work. @PoptartProdigy?
Yep. And these newly minted council idiots don't know that, so are going ahead unilaterally. Veto.
 
There was a whole series of vid interviews in one game where Shepard could influence public opinion and I think war readiness, so there is some precedence.

Not exactly what I mean, since Shepard is an iconic in-setting figure.
I mean, more like. Sufficiently advanced VI to figure out preferences of every person and give them ads which would lead them to desired voting pattern on this issue (or, if you want to go more dystopian, change their worldviews). Ability to only show them news which, not blatantly of course, slightly wedge everyone's opinion in the direction of whatever the news company is being paid for.

But ME is not a cyberpunk dystopia, so I am doubtful "megacorps manipulate mass media to ensure public votes in line with what benefits megacorps and maybe even thinks in a way they are told to by their information-sphere" is within setting thematics. Maybe there are restrictions on research in media-manipulation technologies, maybe it's impossible within setting for some reason, maybe technology is not there and will never be there, but it is not a ME thing, so eh.
 
Yikes. Declarations tend to describe the crimes and faults of the former master...

The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

Maybe not war, but certainly could be insulting, and make cooperation with their forces much more complicated. Who is a hypothetical Salarian admiral more likely to risk his fleet for?

People already feel strong and proud. Check the response to the medical school investment program. Unbridled joy, supreme morale. Not a problem.

Citadel doesn't need to find our thoughts, they'll have all the network access, media coverage, interviews, plus probably Citadel sympathisers passing info.
The history of the current Queen of the United Kingdom doesn't really compare to this situation at all so no point in trying to make a comparison there.
I dont think the Citadel will compromise an unexpected source of military support during a galactic scale war because they decide to arrogantly feel insulted that the people they left to die are a bit miffed with that whole left to die thing, it's an understandable position and once the galactic community find out that we live after being fucked over by the Citadel they are going to have a hard time fucking us over twice since that will make them look like saturday morning cartoon villains.
 
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And I'm saying that makes no sense. This is just authorizing them to make a draft. While we can't force particular wording into the draft they'd be making since they'd be the ones writing it and approving the final draft to be sent to Mira's desk, Mira not having any capacity to influence the final draft just flies in the face of how actual political processes work. @PoptartProdigy?
I've stated multiple times that the result of this bill is going to be binding, or it wouldn't be on your desk. Mira sure can and will make suggestions, as the declaration goes through the process of revision, but if you pass it right now, they will only be suggestions, and you (as in the players) will not actually be the ones who get to make them. If this bill passes, I take the average of the Assembly's thoughts on the matter and Mira's own opinions and ability to influence their discussion, and present the result to you all as a fait accompli. If you want to mandate changes, you must -- as I've said -- veto it, and take subsequent actions.
 
That's a big flaw in the veto system though. It allows the Assembly to push through blank documents, then later fill those in with whatever they want.
 
I've stated multiple times that the result of this bill is going to be binding, or it wouldn't be on your desk. Mira sure can and will make suggestions, as the declaration goes through the process of revision, but if you pass it right now, they will only be suggestions, and you (as in the players) will not actually be the ones who get to make them. If this bill passes, I take the average of the Assembly's thoughts on the matter and Mira's own opinions and ability to influence their discussion, and present the result to you all as a fait accompli. If you want to mandate changes, you must -- as I've said -- veto it, and take subsequent actions.

I understood the bill would be binding. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't make sense for Mira to not have any influence at all over what the final draft would look like - some people seemed to be acting like if Mira passes this now that she's not going to actually do anything else regarding it and have no influence at all in terms of the final draft, resulting in it being full of stupid. Since Mira is astoundingly popular, her voice is going to have a lot of weight, even if it's just a matter of making suggestions. So this is the answer I was looking for, since it confirms she can and will influence the final draft, even if it's without player input. I'm fine with that, since Mira and her advisors are competent enough to make noise if there's anything blatantly stupid put into the declaration, which should be enough to prevent it from being in the final draft.
 
A suggestion from Mira should carry a lot of weight in the assembly, anybody wanting to actively go against her has to burn a lot of political capital to do so and that wont guarantee they get there way by any means.
 
A suggestion from Mira should carry a lot of weight in the assembly, anybody wanting to actively go against her has to burn a lot of political capital to do so and that wont guarantee they get there way by any means.

Not to mention that generally being cooperative with Mira's agenda would increase the chances of getting her endorsement come election season, and that's an endorsement that would sway a good number of voters.
 
Ok at these point we are just arguing in circles. Let's talk about something else.

Anyone else buy my theory that there are more polities in the terminus. We did have a lot of ships that were killed by us than what was in cannon. 4 dreadnoughts, flotilla of cruisers, accompanying escorts, and regular attacks that we dealt with. So unless we got a smart Ranchi who shorten their supply lines and abandon territory we may be seeing some other terminus polities.
 
Can we take actions to get early warnings of bills like this in the future?

It does feel like this was dropped on us out of nowhere, which is an artifact of the yearly cycle that wouldn't actually happen in a realistic political system.
 
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Ok at these point we are just arguing in circles. Let's talk about something else.

Anyone else buy my theory that there are more polities in the terminus. We did have a lot of ships that were killed by us than what was in cannon. 4 dreadnoughts, flotilla of cruisers, accompanying escorts, and regular attacks that we dealt with. So unless we got a smart Ranchi who shorten their supply lines and abandon territory we may be seeing some other terminus polities.

I personally suspect we'll encounter one or two more small groups within the Sentry Omega Cluster who have been hiding out since we prevented the Rachni from ever taking it, and there may be a chance of someone having survived in the Kepler Verge by hiding on the fringes since the Rachni didn't seem to have much of a presence there. Probably not anyone in the Attican Beta Cluster though, since it being a hub I would imagine the Rachni did quite a bit of searching, much as we did quite a bit of searching to clear them out.

Biggest discovery might be a non-canon race in Sentry Omega that's just starting out that would have been wiped out by the Rachni had we not held the cluster.
 
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