Tangled Fate [Ranma 1/2 / Exalted]
- Thread starter Grounders10
- Start date
- Crossover
Grounders10
Nine-Tailed Kitsune
- Location
- British Columbia, Canada, Mars
I'm sure you've noticed that my writing pace has slowed significantly. Currently this story is in the third position on my list of "stories I need to write chapters for".
1. Long Path Home, available on FF.net or Fimfic. Trying to write the second chapter.
2. In The Shadow of Legends, First big fight of the story taking place in Pacific Center. (It's going to be interesting).
3. This story, and its more than just a chapter I need to do.
Having had a bit of time to think things over I've noticed a few things I've written that just don't make sense even in exalted. Almost making things too easy for them... I've brought up in the past that I've been working on this story for a while now, and that means I've got overlapping notes, hold-over ideas, and more drafts than I thought I'd ever write. The issue right now is I've got a few hold-over ideas from previous versions that have made their way into the story when, in hindsight, they shouldn't have. The big one is the sheer number of DBs appearing from Ranma's world. I've previously gone on record as stating that there's somewhere around 10k people from Ranma's world scattered across creation with most landing in the scavenger lands or the rest of the east. Around 800 of them appear in or around Greyfalls. The issue with this is that even if only about 2 hundred are soldiers they're still exalted. Learning war and battle is simply part of their nature. Given a little bit of time that puts Greyfalls Exalted levels at a level only the realm or Lookshy can compare. That's... too much. Far too much. As such I'm making a few changes. Small ones in the actual written story. Conversations are going to need to be rewritten before I can continue writing the next chapter.
At the end of this there will still be DBs from Ranma's world, but the percentage is dropping significantly. Of the 800 or so people who are going to be in or around greyfalls about 50-100 of them will be DBs. Still significant but less ridiculous, also below average for the number of people since the actual percentage of DBs is going to be around 20-30% of the 10k.
There are a few other minor details I need to modify or excise entirely, but that's the big one. I hope this update helps everyone get an idea of what's going on behind the scenes right now with my writing. 'Till Later everyone.
1. Long Path Home, available on FF.net or Fimfic. Trying to write the second chapter.
2. In The Shadow of Legends, First big fight of the story taking place in Pacific Center. (It's going to be interesting).
3. This story, and its more than just a chapter I need to do.
Having had a bit of time to think things over I've noticed a few things I've written that just don't make sense even in exalted. Almost making things too easy for them... I've brought up in the past that I've been working on this story for a while now, and that means I've got overlapping notes, hold-over ideas, and more drafts than I thought I'd ever write. The issue right now is I've got a few hold-over ideas from previous versions that have made their way into the story when, in hindsight, they shouldn't have. The big one is the sheer number of DBs appearing from Ranma's world. I've previously gone on record as stating that there's somewhere around 10k people from Ranma's world scattered across creation with most landing in the scavenger lands or the rest of the east. Around 800 of them appear in or around Greyfalls. The issue with this is that even if only about 2 hundred are soldiers they're still exalted. Learning war and battle is simply part of their nature. Given a little bit of time that puts Greyfalls Exalted levels at a level only the realm or Lookshy can compare. That's... too much. Far too much. As such I'm making a few changes. Small ones in the actual written story. Conversations are going to need to be rewritten before I can continue writing the next chapter.
At the end of this there will still be DBs from Ranma's world, but the percentage is dropping significantly. Of the 800 or so people who are going to be in or around greyfalls about 50-100 of them will be DBs. Still significant but less ridiculous, also below average for the number of people since the actual percentage of DBs is going to be around 20-30% of the 10k.
There are a few other minor details I need to modify or excise entirely, but that's the big one. I hope this update helps everyone get an idea of what's going on behind the scenes right now with my writing. 'Till Later everyone.
- Location
- Belfast
Fair enough, and thanks for keeping us in the loop
.Better to fix the plotholes and faulty foundations before too much gets built on top and they make everything collapse somewhere further on down the lines.
Grounders10
Nine-Tailed Kitsune
- Location
- British Columbia, Canada, Mars
That's the general idea.Fair enough, and thanks for keeping us in the loop
Better to fix the plotholes and faulty foundations before too much gets built on top and they make everything collapse somewhere further on down the lines.
Also does anyone have a good source on ww1 weapons (Preferably british) and the manufacturing techniques used for creating them? I need it for... reasons... <.< >.> *Shifty Kitsune is Shifty*
I'm glad to hear you are continuing as well, I'd really thought this was dead.
On WW1 armaments, I don't have a link on hand, but they did require an industrial base. Precision machining tools and reliable spring steel, not to mention chemical production. Except possibly in the realm of ammunition, you might actually be better off trying to bootstrap based on more modern insurgent weapons, or going back another further to the Napoleonic or us civil wars. It's entirely plausible someone in that army will know at least theoretically how to make an AK-47 in a home machine shop or hand craft the tools to make an old fashioned rifle.
Really though, their first concern I'd think should be ammunition for the guns they already have. It's be odd if they got transported with enough for a long battle.
On WW1 armaments, I don't have a link on hand, but they did require an industrial base. Precision machining tools and reliable spring steel, not to mention chemical production. Except possibly in the realm of ammunition, you might actually be better off trying to bootstrap based on more modern insurgent weapons, or going back another further to the Napoleonic or us civil wars. It's entirely plausible someone in that army will know at least theoretically how to make an AK-47 in a home machine shop or hand craft the tools to make an old fashioned rifle.
Really though, their first concern I'd think should be ammunition for the guns they already have. It's be odd if they got transported with enough for a long battle.
- Location
- Minsk
I don't think there are much differences in technology base for production of ww1 and modern handheld fire arms, construction school and materials changed greatly though. After all, all experience gathered in WW1 and WW2 lead to construction of modern weapon.
So unless you go into large canons production, technology required to produce fire arms would be roughly similar. Of course you'd need to change plastics to wood, use different chemicals to produce gun powder, etc...
Still I think this technology is quite outside of possibility in Exalted, unless some parts which require high precision in production (i.e. barrel) can be produced with magic.
So unless you go into large canons production, technology required to produce fire arms would be roughly similar. Of course you'd need to change plastics to wood, use different chemicals to produce gun powder, etc...
Still I think this technology is quite outside of possibility in Exalted, unless some parts which require high precision in production (i.e. barrel) can be produced with magic.
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
I mean, seriously. There's that whole thing about how Afghani fighters, using just the kind of tools that are commonly available to even mortals in Creation created bootleg AK-47s...
I'm not going to say anything about how good those AK-47s are... Other than they are the memetic 'This Gun Just Won't DIE!' gun, so it's probably very hard to screw up so they're too unreliable to use. But yes, the single biggest concern won't be making the guns, it'll be getting the actual propellant for the bullets. Proper Smokeless Powder in whatever form you use only really came about late 1860/70s... And it's also the reason that the transition to rapid fire weapons could be carried out. It's a hell of a lot less corrosive and much slower to clog the barrel.
If you can figure out a way to get Smokeless Powder in whatever form with high enough quality to be reliable, then there's going to be very few problems getting the actual gun to work out.
And @DivineImp ? The barrel's actually probably pretty easy. Just get someone to figure out how to make mass-produced quality steel, or Jade if you are that rich in it. Then have an Exalted, and this is a worst case scenario mind you, make a lathe. Then use that lathe to make a better lathe. Repeat until you have a lathe of the needed reliability and quality, then use it to bore out the centre of a rod of steel/jade. Congratulations, you've just made a smoothbore barrel.
Making a rifled barrel would be more complicated, but solvable. Seriously, all that's needed to get precision manufacturing up and running is someone to make a lathe (I think). That's the first tool that is able to continuously make another of itself with at a set quality. Which means you now have a minimum standard for your machining efforts. Make a bunch more lathes with that lathe, then find the one with the best quality that's reliable. Congratulations, you should just have improved your minimum standards for machining. Repeat until you reach the needed precision.
Then use those lathes to make all the other tools needed for whatever you've invented.
The big problem is basically material science and chemistry. By which I mean being able to reliably produce the base materials at a given quality. Solve that problem, and you're all set to have an Industrial Revolution kick off.
I'm not going to say anything about how good those AK-47s are... Other than they are the memetic 'This Gun Just Won't DIE!' gun, so it's probably very hard to screw up so they're too unreliable to use. But yes, the single biggest concern won't be making the guns, it'll be getting the actual propellant for the bullets. Proper Smokeless Powder in whatever form you use only really came about late 1860/70s... And it's also the reason that the transition to rapid fire weapons could be carried out. It's a hell of a lot less corrosive and much slower to clog the barrel.
If you can figure out a way to get Smokeless Powder in whatever form with high enough quality to be reliable, then there's going to be very few problems getting the actual gun to work out.
And @DivineImp ? The barrel's actually probably pretty easy. Just get someone to figure out how to make mass-produced quality steel, or Jade if you are that rich in it. Then have an Exalted, and this is a worst case scenario mind you, make a lathe. Then use that lathe to make a better lathe. Repeat until you have a lathe of the needed reliability and quality, then use it to bore out the centre of a rod of steel/jade. Congratulations, you've just made a smoothbore barrel.
Making a rifled barrel would be more complicated, but solvable. Seriously, all that's needed to get precision manufacturing up and running is someone to make a lathe (I think). That's the first tool that is able to continuously make another of itself with at a set quality. Which means you now have a minimum standard for your machining efforts. Make a bunch more lathes with that lathe, then find the one with the best quality that's reliable. Congratulations, you should just have improved your minimum standards for machining. Repeat until you reach the needed precision.
Then use those lathes to make all the other tools needed for whatever you've invented.
The big problem is basically material science and chemistry. By which I mean being able to reliably produce the base materials at a given quality. Solve that problem, and you're all set to have an Industrial Revolution kick off.
CnidarianMessiah
Totally not a flying polyp <whistles innocently>
- Location
- Cooling Water Intake
The original way of getting consistent quality metals was to only use ore from a certain mine and try to adapt to that. If you were average lucky it was "bad ore" that made consistently brittle crap that possibly could be used as roofing nails, if anyone at that point was crazy enough to use metal to put together wood constructions. If you were very lucky you got metal with useful qualities. If you were astronomically-once-in-human-history lucky you got something like damascus steel, and undying fame.
Then the mine ran out. Or what was left in the mine didn't have the correct impurities anymore, aka the "ore grew bad." Oops.
The modern (post WWII) way is to check whats in the ore and flux out whats not supposed to be in it but is and add what should be in it but isn't. The intermediate solution was using rules of thumb "Ore from here add this, ore from there add that, ore from da other place not usable." developed at great expense and effort by researchers.
As far as propellant goes, Creation already has Fire Dust, though I never bothered to find out how it measures up to modern gunpowder.
Most of the guns already in Creation are First Age Magitech, which take DBs a hell of a lot of training just to maintain. Again, not something I really looked at before that much, but guns aren't unknown, just rare.
Most of the guns already in Creation are First Age Magitech, which take DBs a hell of a lot of training just to maintain. Again, not something I really looked at before that much, but guns aren't unknown, just rare.
Grounders10
Nine-Tailed Kitsune
- Location
- British Columbia, Canada, Mars
Its my, "I'm feeling bored lets write something different" story. It's chapters are short enough they can be written whenever I feel.
Its basically powdered napalm... Not exactly a propellant, a usable one anyway. More useful for creating flamethrowers.
That's not quite right. It explodes in a blast of flame, but with almost no pressure. (This is impossible according to real-world physics, but Exalted never gave those the time of day.) This is important, because it makes flame pieces much simpler; they're basically just a barrel and a way to touch the powder off. Powdered napalm would be really hard to use in a flamethrower; probably beyond what modern Creation can reliably manage.
I'd actually recommend sharply limiting what modern technology they can get working in Creation. Partially because physics in Creation just doesn't work the same way and a lot of technology is impossible (which is why no one in Creation has black powder), but mostly because Ranmaverse people in Creation solving their problems through industrialization feels totally wrong. Between Creation solutions, and Ranma solutions, they've got plenty of good options; industrial solutions would just be out of place.
Like, if they want to make more ammo, they shouldn't be refining saltpeter, they should get in touch with the God of Guns (a brand-new position in Heaven that exists as of the moment a gun entered Creation) and get him to help find a recipe that'll work - not that he can do that off the top of his head, but he can poke around the records of Heaven or swap favors with the God of Explosions or something. (He'll be incredibly cooperative. If guns are the next big thing then he's going places fast, if they aren't, he isn't - and he can't possibly ask for a better way to make them the next big thing than to lend a hand to three Celestial exalts and several dozen DBs looking to make and use a whole lot of guns! The only catch is that the office is currently empty, but that's just a matter of time.)
- Location
- Australia
First and only thing I could think of.
I should point out that with Exalts, it will work because they 'tell it' to work.
Nah, that's way out of theme for Exalted. What you have to remember about Exalted gods is that Heaven is run by the Celestial Bureaucracy, and - especially in Heaven - gods are first and foremost bureaucrats. The God of Explosions isn't about blowing things up, he's Alfred Nobel, running a dynamite business and making a fortune from the comfort of his office. Mind you, he'd definitely win a punching contest with a flower-god of equal rank; he does get some explosion powers, but that's ultimately secondary to his role as a bureaucratic functionary. (Also, fashion in Heaven owes far more to eastern traditions than anything else.)
This does not make him any less useful as an ally. In fact, if you're trying to reproduce guns in Creation, that makes him exactly the guy you need to talk to. If he wants to know what kinds of things explode, he can crack open his archives and look through his records of things that have exploded.
Not really? Exalts can do a lot, but they can't just will Creation to bow to their will. I mean, an Exalted artificer could totally make an artifact gun that pretty much works because they tell it to work, but building and operating a factory that produces mundane firearms is a totally different prospect. They can't just tell Creation that gunpowder is a thing now.
Although that might get expensive, but yes, that's pretty much just what Charms do.
Pattern Spiders: "Okay and then this person dies-"
Solar: "Nope."
Pattern Spiders: "..."
That's basically what Exalts, especially Celestial Exalts 'do.'
No, it isn't. That's basically what they do when they are present and wielding their power in person. It's not what they do when they build a factory, train some workers, and then leave to do something else. They can't override reality like that at anything above personal scale. Like, they can dodge a falling mountain, sure, but they can't declare that falling mountains will no longer injure anyone in their kingdom. They can tend to an amputee and make his legs grow back, and if they really want to they can prepare an artifact healing salve that'll do the same thing, but they can't turn the recipe over to mortal doctors and expect them to accomplish anything with it. Mixing charcoal, saltpeter, and sulfur does not produce a useful explosive in Creation, and a Solar can't do anything to change that.
*Looks at the Bureaucracy Charms* Uh-huh. Totally. That's how every Charm works.
And then there's TAW Lunars and their Territory Charms as well.
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Okay, yeah, "personal scale only" was an overstatement. I stand by "exalts can't casually rewrite creation", though. I can't speak to the TAW lunars, but while bureaucracy charms are wider-scale, they're also a lot less blatantly miraculous than, say, a PD. And even then, the scale is way, way less than "rewrite all of Creation". The only time anyone did anything like that was the Salinan Working, which was a massive sorcerous project achieved at the height of the First Age; it's far, far beyond what can be achieved in modern Creation. I suppose that in the 3e paradigm you could do it with an ambition 3 solar circle sorcerous working, but that's about as far from "basically what Exalts do" as you can get while still being something achievable by an Exalt.*Looks at the Bureaucracy Charms* Uh-huh. Totally. That's how every Charm works.
And then there's TAW Lunars and their Territory Charms as well.
More importantly, allowing exalts to simply change the rules whenever they want is fucking stupid and leads to fucking stupid stories. If you let an exalt force gunpowder into existence by virtue of being an exalt and wanting it, you might as well let them force "drawing this symbol on the ground makes food appear" into existence, because that makes just as much sense. The exalt defines a process and a desired result, and declares that the former will cause the latter - if it works for making explosions it should work for making food. And then you start having to answer all sorts of awkward questions about why no one has ever done this before, or if they have, why Creation still has things like "farmers".
Grounders10
Nine-Tailed Kitsune
- Location
- British Columbia, Canada, Mars
It's not that gunpowder doesn't work in creation (Which isn't relevant to modern weapons anyway.). Guns do not fit the aesthetic of creation. A musket or assault rifle doesn't say 'ancient warfare' or 'time of legends' like a giant ass sword or incredibly complex mirror based solar powered laser that smites the enemies of the Unconquered Sun. That's the reason they aren't included, yet at the same time we see 'flamepieces' and 'prayer pieces' which are really just horribly complex (unnecessarily so) guns. Even if we assume gunpowder can't exist in creation there are other methods of creating guns that don't rely on gunpowder. I've heard reports of compressed air powered guns going back to the 16th century. Really the only reason guns don't exist as we know them, as musket or flintlock, is because it engenders the feeling of the end of the age of legends. (Not that guns do fuck all to exalted anymore than a sword does. Seriously you have to actually hit your target to do anything and that's hard enough when the guy can't outpace a car, run on leaves, or turn into shadows)
Physics in creation. How are physics determined? By the Loom and gods. On a quantum physics/meta-physics level Earth and Creation are entirely different beasts, this is true. On a material world level? They're fucking identical. I light a barrel of oil on fire? It explodes on both worlds. If you make gunpowder in exalted? It works just like Earth. It might explode because of an interaction of elements rather than molecules, but its still going to explode. Guns work in creation, its just creation has never invented guns. Why? Meh, who knows. Probably just never occurred to them. Making more guns though? Material science, for mundane materials, is all over the place in creation and the tools for working it to a precision required for modern firearms simply doesn't exist in anything more than the rare shogunate/first age workshops.
That's why I'm looking into manufacturing techniques of the last couple centuries, so I can figure out what they can get away with bootstrapping themselves to.
Physics in creation. How are physics determined? By the Loom and gods. On a quantum physics/meta-physics level Earth and Creation are entirely different beasts, this is true. On a material world level? They're fucking identical. I light a barrel of oil on fire? It explodes on both worlds. If you make gunpowder in exalted? It works just like Earth. It might explode because of an interaction of elements rather than molecules, but its still going to explode. Guns work in creation, its just creation has never invented guns. Why? Meh, who knows. Probably just never occurred to them. Making more guns though? Material science, for mundane materials, is all over the place in creation and the tools for working it to a precision required for modern firearms simply doesn't exist in anything more than the rare shogunate/first age workshops.
That's why I'm looking into manufacturing techniques of the last couple centuries, so I can figure out what they can get away with bootstrapping themselves to.
Winchester
Buzzzzzkill
- Location
- Creeping towards your ear
Huh. The last big Exalted story I read had the author explain that the Loom was severely damaged during the overthrow of the Primordials, and that entire concepts were destroyed, their threads burnt out, during the upheaval. Among those being the concept of "burning things generate expanding gas", which is kind of essential to all forms of chemically propelled firearms and rockets, as well as the internal combustion engine.
Gunpowder will still burn hot, fast and bright, making it useful for firestarters or incendiaries, and you can still light hydrocarbons on fire just fine and use them for lamp- or even boiler fuel, but you can't make an internal combustion engine. (Also, dust explosions like in a coal mine or a granary are impossible).
Which is why the firedust weapons in Exalted are so clunky - they need a mechanism for ejecting the burning dust at the target, because the dust isn't going to go anywhere on its own.
The biggest hurdle they'd need to pass for making guns & ammo is mass production. Specifically, standards (length, mass, etc) and assembly line techniques.
Get one person with decent modern metallurgical knowledge and you can set up mass steel production fairly straightforwardly. Getting 100 different people to make ammo & parts that can all work in a single gun is much harder. One of the main advantages of the AK-47 is that it's much more tolerant to poorly fitted parts, but that's only when compared to other modern guns.
IIRC, A Hero's War has a decent segment of 5 master smiths trying for weeks to make interchangeable parts, then the MC taking a bunch of apprentices and training them to do it in just a few days. Overall it's one of the best 'modern techniques brought to a fantasy setting' stories I've seen.
Grounders10
Nine-Tailed Kitsune
- Location
- British Columbia, Canada, Mars
Yeah miss 'I'm a million floating orbs full of fire' threw a bit of a fit at the end of the War and burned away a bunch of reality. The issue is that its never said what she burned away, because since it doesn't exist you can't explain it. Or something like that. People have theorized that she burned away the concepts that allow gunpowder weapons to work, but its just speculation. Like a lot of Exalted nothing is said either way so that Storytellers can fill it in themselves.
*Looks at Nyx/The 6th Sister/The Five going crazy* Ya don't say.
