Hm, it seems spite was a bit loaded a word to use here. What I wanted to convey is the difference between doing something pragmatic (like taking food you desperately need at the expense of others, who probably need it just as much) and actively using salted-earth tactics, indiscriminately targeting hostile civilians in the process and good old terror tactics.
The value Ruthlessness is not about cruelty for cruelties sake, but to represent a willingness to use cruelty for your own benefit.
The difference in mindset you are missing is about the scale of conflict. The "war-goal" has shifted from "make them stop attacking us" to "kill them all so that they can never attack us again".
Both are valid goals and your actions are indeed logical and intelligent for the latter, though they show a difference in what you are willing to do for your own benefit. Hence the new value.
Right now there is no way at all to tell a difference between the two in relation to this action, and making sure they don't attack us until next Tuesday is a pretty shitty goal.
From the perspective of our group do we ever want to be attacked? No.
Therefore the only logical conclusion is to ensure we are not ever attacked.
What action that requires to achieve is entirely up to The Whites, and they better be damn convincing that we've achieved our goal while they still live because that needs to stand up against the certainty we would derive from their deaths.
If there was another group that would become aggressive as a result of ruthless actions that would change the scenario.
It has the potential to do so, hence the diplomacy malus. People might be worried once they hear the great stories about how your tribe slaughtered another tribe down to the last man, woman and child. Though at the same time, it has also a decent potential to scare off potential aggressors.
It synergizes rather well with Perseverance in that regard. You generally don't pick fights with people who you know will keep coming for you and are known to not fight with the kids gloves on.
The combination makes for a good base to become conquerors.
See Rome.
Fuck with them and they will see you BURN even if it takes them three generations to make it happen. They put such huge stock in their legion standard banners that taking one means you're committing to becoming an example as soon as they turn around to face you.
It lends to a very internally justified form of conquest, since "they started it" is eternal and the fact is that somebody will try eventually.
On a practical level we probably want to evolve Ruthless to merely Practical. Ruthless on its 'pure' form is not really good for internal stability either, since it generates one of the brittle social order states(i.e. when you're fine, it's hard to make you weaken, but when you're hit by multiple crisis your people all demonstrate Ruthless and applies Every Man For Himself, which kills your ability to react to crisis)
It has the potential to do so, hence the diplomacy malus. People might be worried once they hear the great stories about how your tribe slaughtered another tribe down to the last man, woman and child.
Fully on board with the Diplomacy malus, this creating enemies is a little odd unless they are allied with The Whites or consider our relationship with themselves similar to our relationship with The Whites, Might Makes Right dicks who call people they ambush unprovoked "food" -.-, not exactly victims, so likely we would do the same to them anyway.
If the above isn't the case it's kinda like culling Lions cause you saw them kill Bears, if they were killing your goats or your people sure that makes sense but when you aren't a Bear you shouldn't have anything to fear from Bear killers. Especially when the Bears were killing your goats.
I admit I'm speaking to some degree with the assumption of full contextual knowledge on the part of these third parties but if they made a decision of aggression without that information then they probably would have been a threat anyway.
This of course all changes when we are the unprovoked aggressors, I would fully expect the beginnings of coalitions against us etc.
Adhoc vote count started by Deliste on Jun 21, 2018 at 4:54 AM, finished with 805 posts and 21 votes.
[x] First study the plundered gear of the Snow Demons. The hunts will be safer for it. (Hunting: Great Beast becomes Study Winter Equipment)
Fully on board with the Diplomacy malus, this creating enemies is a little odd unless they are allied with The Whites or consider our relationship with themselves similar to our relationship with The Whites, Might Makes Right dicks who call people they ambush unprovoked "food" -.-, not exactly victims, so likely we would do the same to them anyway.
If the above isn't the case it's kinda like culling Lions cause you saw them kill Bears, if they were killing your goats or your people sure that makes sense but when you aren't a Bear you shouldn't have anything to fear from Bear killers. Especially when the Bears were killing your goats.
I admit I'm speaking to some degree with the assumption of full contextual knowledge on the part of these third parties but if they made a decision of aggression without that information then they probably would have been a threat anyway.
This of course all changes when we are the unprovoked aggressors, I would fully expect the beginnings of coalitions against us etc.
Remember we only see the strategic level interactions, but such attitudes permeate daily life, if not necessarily to the full extent.
Ruthless means that when our traders or diplomats talk to other tribes we may do this sort of thing:
-Some servant or minor fucks up, we will punish them excessively to make sure they remember it.
-When we negotiate, we'll prefer to drive hard bargains even if our people suffer in the process.
-When other empires have someone go over and steal a sheep, we'd go march out and do as much damage to their herds as possible.
All this is simplified into a simple diplomacy malus, which represents how our activities are upsetting and intimidating in cases where we are superior, threatening in cases where we are peers.
Ruthlessness is a great cultural trait when you are the superior power, same as generosity. Its dangerous when you are weak because you're more likely to make ending fights more difficult, people tend to fight Ruthless civs to annihilation because they are worried that one day you might take revenge.
Remember we only see the strategic level interactions, but such attitudes permeate daily life, if not necessarily to the full extent.
Ruthless means that when our traders or diplomats talk to other tribes we may do this sort of thing:
-Some servant or minor fucks up, we will punish them excessively to make sure they remember it.
-When we negotiate, we'll prefer to drive hard bargains even if our people suffer in the process.
-When other empires have someone go over and steal a sheep, we'd go march out and do as much damage to their herds as possible.
All this is simplified into a simple diplomacy malus, which represents how our activities are upsetting and intimidating in cases where we are superior, threatening in cases where we are peers.
Ruthlessness is a great cultural trait when you are the superior power, same as generosity. Its dangerous when you are weak because you're more likely to make ending fights more difficult, people tend to fight Ruthless civs to annihilation because they are worried that one day you might take revenge.
Thank you for the reminder to think about it in the context of daily life.
If it is being applied in that manner then I'll have to disagree with the trait quite heavily.
Defending yourself against cannibals to the best of your ability =/= abusing a servant or driving a hard bargain to our own detriment, that's just dumb.
@veekie, the first two examples are a bit extreme for the Fad-level of Ruthlessness. That's more something you will see when it upgrades to Ideal without evolving in the process, but the direction is correct.
@Deliste
You have some points, but please do keep in mind that war ends with peace, not annihilation, most of the time.
It will always be harder to make peace with, or keep calm after conquering, an enemy you effictivly commited warcrimes (not that that's well defined yet) against.
@Deliste
You have some points, but please do keep in mind that war ends with peace, not annihilation, most of the time.
It will always be harder to make peace with, or keep calm after conquering, an enemy you effictivly commited warcrimes (not that that's well defined yet) against.
Modern war ends with peace and those reasons don't exist yet.
Warcrimes were eventually defined at a certain point in time and that was the same time people gave a shit when it was happening to someone who wasn't them, in our time their "fellow man" is still a filthy barbarian, despicable infidel or monstrous half-beast.
Some might have found such acts distasteful, given that their own tribe was tethering on the brink of starvation and was just as beleaguered by the snow, though Snow-Fox held no such convictions. A spear was just as deadly to his own kin than to his enemies, yet he wielded it regardless. It would have been foolish not to use all means at their disposal to fight the Snow Demons.
As far as I can tell wars have rarely been to extinction as long as wars were a thing.
Not sure about our early tribal conflicts IRL, but even here it will more likely end with one side loosing enough hunters that they can't attack without starving as worst case, not with everyone dead.
As far as I can tell wars have rarely been to extinction as long as wars were a thing.
Not sure about our early tribal conflicts IRL, but even here it will more likely end with one side loosing enough hunters that they can't attack without starving as worst case, not with everyone dead.
That's basically the same thing in my opinion, or at least it doesn't fit my conception of coming to peace, we didn't go after the children we just didn't care if they died of starvation alongside the warriors that are a threat.
It might or might not be the right thing to chase down the martially unthreatening remnants, maybe they're an information threat, maybe they're a threat by example of defiance/"getting away with it" and subsequent action by third parties or maybe time is better spent guarding a strategic pass or feeding your family.
@veekie, the first two examples are a bit extreme for the Fad-level of Ruthlessness. That's more something you will see when it upgrades to Ideal without evolving in the process, but the direction is correct.
As far as I can tell wars have rarely been to extinction as long as wars were a thing.
Not sure about our early tribal conflicts IRL, but even here it will more likely end with one side loosing enough hunters that they can't attack without starving as worst case, not with everyone dead.
I mean, fighting someone and accidentally starving them into breaking into refugees is basically extinction in an era of tribal isolationism. There's also the immense ease of cultural death, as the differences are very quickly assimilated out, often under threat of aggression.
[x] First study the plundered gear of the Snow Demons. The hunts will be safer for it. (Hunting: Great Beast becomes Study Winter Equipment)
The council had quickly decided that it would be unwise to have the hunters far away from the tribe as long as the Snow Demons, or White Clans as they were now called as the people knew them to be man, not beast, were so close. What they should do instead drew some discussion though. Many argued that they should finally try to lay traps for beasts around the village so that at least a trickle of meat could be procured without calling a hunt and they would also serve to discourage others to come to close to their home. Others saw it more important to replicate the White Clans gear, for the snow was piling ever higher, slowing down the hunters. Their enemies would not be hampered near as much and should they attack again, they would be a distinct disadvantage. Though the stocks of the tribe were still far too empty for comfort, it was in the end decided to go with the latter proposal. The traps alone would never feed the tribe and anything that gave the hunters an edge in these times would not only mean more safety, but also more game brought home.
Research Winter Gear
52 + 20 (Great Hunter) + 10 (Winter Specialization) = 82 -> Hunters learned how to make winter equipment and made enough for their own needs.
While the concepts of their things were easy enough to grasp, it was Snow-Fox who truly brought the task forward. When other hunters still tried to make sense of the strange stitching patterns of the cloaks, he had already found a few matrons who would try to replicate the different techniques they saw. As they still struggled with the huge boots they captured, he had quickly found the lid of a basket for comparison and was trying out how far the shoes could be seized down to be less clunky, while still preventing the wearer to sink into the snow. Soon enough, a few ideas had been tried and discarded before settling on what to make and the tribe was working furiously to make as many sets of the new cloaks and shoes as possible. While it was still clear what these things had been inspired by, they no longer looked like Snow Demon garb, but something that the tribe would make. The shoes used a mix of wood and wicker for their size, making them more sturdy and smaller then what the White Clans used. Likewise, they didn't bother to copy the many overlapping patches of their cloaks, instead using the largest hides from the recent hunts to minimize the number of stitches needed, then layering a second strip of hide over them to make them sturdier.
Though as the work drew to a close, it gained a decent bit of urgency. The storms finally calmed down, letting the sun peak back into the valley and making it easier to get around again. Thus Snow-Fox had taken a small group of hunters on a trip through the valley to see how well their new equipment worked on a longer trip. When they reached the peak of one of the higher hills, they surveyed the valley for the first time since winter began and as their gaze went over the cracked hills, all the clothing in the world could not have stopped their blood from freezing. The smoke of campfires wafted from the broken rocks. Not one, not two, but more then they could count. As they looked more closely, they also saw lumps of white moving among the cliffs. The White Clans had come and they were many, rivaling the tribe in size if he had to guess. As he looked back over to where the village lay, the smoke from their own fires being mostly dispersed among the tress though traitorous swaths of black still rising now and then, he knew that they could not hide forever.
The White Clans have come to the valley and food is still scarce for the tribe. What should be done?
Available Actions: 3
Food Situation: Critical (Gathering, Fishing)
Reserves: 0.3 Months
Winter has come.
Malus of -60 applied to Gathering.
Malus of -20 applied to Fishing, Trapping and Hunting.
The weather is clear, but large amounts of snow cover the valley.
Malus of -20 to Gathering, Fishing, Trapping and Hunting.
Malus halved due to winter gear.
The river has frozen.
Fishing impossible.
Cut back the rations?
[] [Rations] Lower the rations. (Malus of -10 to all rolls per 0.1 months of rations saved. Maximum of 0.5 months of rations can be saved.)
-[] Write-In how much
[] [Rations] Do not lower the rations.
Available Actions
Sustenance:
[] [Action] Go hunting.
-[] In the valley. -[] In the mountains. Too dangerous due to the weather.
-[] Kill the great beast.
-[] Write-In
[] [Action] The small forest critters exist in great numbers, but are hard to catch. Try to catch them with traps. [] [Action] Put more effort into gathering to create a stockpile. Large scale gathering impossible in winter. [] [Action] Put more effort into fishing to create a stockpile. The river has frozen. Fishing impossible until spring.
Resources:
[] [Action] Make new tools from the strange stones for the entire tribe. (Bonus to Gathering efficiency.)
[] [Action] Try to learn more about the wood you can now gather and look for useful things to make from it.
[] [Action] Investigate the mountains if you can find other useful things.
Construction:
No construction actions available.
Diplomacy:
[] [Action] Attempt to establish peaceful contact with the White Clans.
Warfare:
[] [Action] Post more sentries to protect yourself against attack.
[] [Action] Lay ambushes to kill any groups of White Clansmen who venture out from their camps.
[] [Action] Scout the camps of the White Clans.
[] [Action] Raid the camps of the White Clans.
Other:
[] [Action] Explore your surroundings further.
-[] Follow the river into the valleys.
-[] Go towards the sunset.
-[] Explore the mountains.
-[] Write-In
[] [Action] Sit out the weather. (Bonus to Exposure rolls.)
You can assign Snow-Fox to one action to confer his bonuses to all attached rolls. To do so, add the following to the action:
-[] [Great Person] Snow-Fox
AN: You are pretty much where you started last month and considering that the most likely change in your circumstances was everyone starving or freezing to death, that can be counted as a great success.
Oh this is good actually, they're now big, slow and clumsy.
Guerilla warfare is a go, traps, night raids, scout ambushing and anything we can't steal we burn, eventually anyway.
[X] Plan Guerilla
-[X] [Rations] Do not lower the rations.
-[X] [Action] Go hunting.
--[X] In the valley.
--[X] In the valley.
-[X] Let the hunter place traps in the forest around the village. For game and attackers both.
--[X] [Great Person] Snow-Fox
We are also fighting winter so right now the important thing is eating and economy of action so making the very best traps we can is what we should do, defensive/offensive/alertive and it feeds us.
This is for a type of pit trap, so being left unarmed is not a concern.
But yeah the construction would focus on slicing from obsidian blades anchored into the walls of the trap rather than spikes driven into the base of the pit.
[X] Plan Get the Bear
-[X] [Rations] Do not lower the rations.
-[X] [Action] Go hunting.
--[X] In the valley.
--[X] Kill the great beast.
---[X] [Great Person] Snow-Fox
-[X] Let the hunter place traps in the forest around the village. For game and attackers both.
I guess we won't have to leave our valley for contact with other people.
