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Tales of History - A Civ-Builder Quest

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I think choosing the clothes over the potential food is a mistake. Do we even have enough materials to produce enough clothes right after that? Will we discover how to make the clothes and then have to spend another action actually making them? Like with the obsidian tools?

We are literally without food for next month, we barely lucked out in this one, we can't expect to be lucky every time. Making the traps right now would provide the possibility to have some more food income right now, and we do really need it. We still have a long winter in front of us, and while we can survive with sub par clothing, we can't survive without food.
 
HugoR said:
I think choosing the clothes over the potential food is a mistake. Do we even have enough materials to produce enough clothes right after that? Will we discover how to make the clothes and then have to spend another action actually making them? Like with the obsidian tools?

We are literally without food for next month, we barely lucked out in this one, we can't expect to be lucky every time. Making the traps right now would provide the possibility to have some more food income right now, and we do really need it. We still have a long winter in front of us, and while we can survive with sub par clothing, we can't survive without food.
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The winter gear would massively increase our efficiency while hunting or trapping. Snow shoes alone would be a major boon.
 
Duesal said:
The winter gear would massively increase our efficiency while hunting or trapping. Snow shoes alone would be a major boon.
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And will we have enough time to outfit every hunter? Each action where we don't hunt is less food in our storage.

And how much of an increase in effeciency are we talking about?
 
HugoR said:
And will we have enough time to outfit every hunter? Each action where we don't hunt is less food in our storage.

And how much of an increase in effeciency are we talking about?
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Considering that our current Winter Gear is utter crap?
Azel said:
Yours is barely adequate, favouring mobility over protection as your tribe never needed to deal with long periods of snowfall and thick snow cover on the ground. Biggest problem is your stitches, which can widen easily while moving and then let in the cold and snow. Hence many if your hunters wearing additional pelts over their clothes, which cancels out the hypothetical mobility advantage while still offering lacklustre protection.

As for snow shoes, you got nothing. The first days were pretty bad, since your footwear couldn't even deal with more then ankle deep snow before the tribe made some hasty alterations to them.

So yeah. Your winter gear kinda sucks right now.
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I'm expecting a massive increase in efficiency. Hunters can travel faster, further, stay out for longer, etc. With a general spread of knowledge of the winter gear people are far less likely to freeze to death.
 
Duesal said:
I'm expecting a massive increase in efficiency. Hunters can travel faster, further, stay out for longer, etc. With a general spread of knowledge of the winter gear people are far less likely to freeze to death.
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We have yet to die from the cold, but we for sure will start to accumulate malus for the shortage of food, so I'll need @Azel to tell us if after discovering how to make the clothes of we will have to dedicate another action to actually do it.
 
Azel said:
Curious. I've expected a much stronger negative reaction to you guys getting Ruthlessness.
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I see it as a positive, looking forward to the Tier 2 and the whole "the world shows no mercy" gives me confidence it will mix well with Perseverance and The World is Our Teacher.

Pragmatism ahoy, needs must.

Mercy is for the strong, that's why they call it giving quarter, you have to be able to afford giving that away, giving away the advantage against your enemies, giving away the knowledge they gained fighting you etc.

We do not yet have that strength.
 
@Azel
What is our current malus for lack of winter gear?

Will replication of The Whites winter gear provide a bonus or only remove the malus?

Does studying winter gear include manufacturing?
 
Azel said:
Curious. I've expected a much stronger negative reaction to you guys getting Ruthlessness.
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I have an unfortunate feeling that a good chunk of the playerbase will enjoy a trait that gives justification to "hard men making hard decisions" even if it's not entirely warranted.

People tend to get bloodthirsty in quests in general, but I find that it's especially pronounced in civ quests like this one.

Source: am a Paths of Civilization vet :V
 
Raichu1972 said:
I have an unfortunate feeling that a good chunk of the playerbase will enjoy a trait that gives justification to "hard men making hard decisions" even if it's not entirely warranted.

People tend to get bloodthirsty in quests in general, but I find that it's especially pronounced in civ quests like this one.

Source: am a Paths of Civilization vet :V
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It's a matter of making values based decisions actually, I refuse to be bound by preconceptions of any kind, including a cultural bias to being nice when it isn't warranted.

When mercy is beneficial then I'll vote for it, that time hasn't come.
 
If I'm not mistaken in the path of civilization quest the players civ is mostly harmless. Passive really.
I want to try something different, I want us to be the agressor for once. To raid and pillage. That would make for fun times.
 
Early human civilizations were the real OG peeps. The (Ancient) Persians made chairs out of people, poured molten gold down their enemies' throats, chained dismembered body parts to city walls, force-fed people milk and honey while they were eaten alive by insects...and they were the kinder, gentler, much more diplomatic alternative to other, more established Fertile Cresent powers. Dan Carlin has a great podcast on the topic.

It takes diplomacy & tact & blood & iron to hold an empire together.
 
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Satar said:
Early human civilizations were the real OG peeps. The (Ancient) Persians made chairs out of people, poured molten gold down their enemies' throats, chained dismembered body parts to city walls, force-fed people milk and honey while they were eaten alive by insects...and they were the kinder, gentler, much more diplomatic alternative to other, more established Fertile Cresent powers. Dan Carlin has a great podcast on the topic.

It takes both diplomacy & tact & blood & iron to hold an empire together.
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Damn. I'm impressed. That's giving me so many ideas.
 
[] Stick to the previous decision. The hunters will try to find and slay the great beast. (Perform Hunting: Great Beast as planned)

Can get enough food to tide the winter, assuming we don't get attacked again.
But if we do get attacked while our best hunters are out, that'd be disastrous.

[] First study the plundered gear of the Snow Demons. The hunts will be safer for it. (Hunting: Great Beast becomes Study Winter Equipment)

This will greatly boost Winter Hunting and combat. We need this because we're eating a -30 penalty to hunting in winter.

[] Let the hunters keep hunting, but closer to the village in case of an attack. Furthermore, they can scout for signs of the Demons. (Hunting: Great Beast becomes Hunting: Valley)

Helps stretch our food stocks a bit more to get a buffer for next turn.
Still got a horrible penalty for winter work though.

[] Let the hunter place traps in the forest around the village. For game and attackers both. (Hunting: Great Beast becomes Trapping)

Boost to defenses, and the snow makes certain snares much more powerful...IF they know where and how to raid us anyways.

My vote:
[X] First study the plundered gear of the Snow Demons. The hunts will be safer for it. (Hunting: Great Beast becomes Study Winter Equipment)

We need to degrade the Winter penalty or we'd die either when they raid us, or when our hunting attacks botch due to the massive penalties. With copied winter gear and Snow Fox we should have an advantage on the next clash.
HugoR said:
If I'm not mistaken in the path of civilization quest the players civ is mostly harmless. Passive really.
I want to try something different, I want us to be the agressor for once. To raid and pillage. That would make for fun times.
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Very silly plan to define us by being the 'opposite' of the super martial quest by being super matrial.
 
[X] First study the plundered gear of the Snow Demons. The hunts will be safer for it. (Hunting: Great Beast becomes Study Winter Equipment)
 
veekie said:
Very silly plan to define us by being the 'opposite' of the super martial quest by being super matrial.
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Until I stopped reading the quest, it was not really headed into a martial civ. If things changed later on then I'm sorry for my mistake. Anyhow, I just wanted to write my opinion is the thread, I'm sure there are other people with similar goals.
 
With few exceptions, most of the wars done on SV are usually on the defensive or answering a call to arms. I would be up for a more active martial civ than other builders have had so far. Wars of subjugation are a great way to expand after all as shown by the romans.
 
HugoR said:
Until I stopped reading the quest, it was not really headed into a martial civ. If things changed later on then I'm sorry for my mistake. Anyhow, I just wanted to write my opinion is the thread, I'm sure there are other people with similar goals.
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We were at least as martial as esrly Rome there, we had extensive martial elites with politocal power. Conquered the same way even.

Early Rome did a shitload of its conquests via self defense. Someone attacks them, they go completely overboard retaliating and then since the threat is gone, they settle and build.

And then the next neighbor takes a swing.
It was only peaceful when it was just the core lands
 
Azel said:
Curious. I've expected a much stronger negative reaction to you guys getting Ruthlessness.
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1. We do not have anyone that we are in contact with and have good relations so that malus does not bother us for now.
2. White Clans might try to raid us soon, in which case -Enemy morale would be useful.
3. It is only a Fad. If we would find it counteproductive, we can remove it. By the way, I really like the division of Values into levels of importance to our tribe.
 
HugoR said:
We have yet to die from the cold, but we for sure will start to accumulate malus for the shortage of food, so I'll need @Azel to tell us if after discovering how to make the clothes of we will have to dedicate another action to actually do it.
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Depends on your roll for the action. A good result means that you have enough materials and learn quickly enough to manufacture a bunch of equipment with that action. A bad result means you need another dedicated action to actually make it.
Deliste said:
@Azel
What is our current malus for lack of winter gear?

Will replication of The Whites winter gear provide a bonus or only remove the malus?

Does studying winter gear include manufacturing?
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The current weather modifier is -30 from the snowstorm. Proper winter gear would halve that.
The -20 modifier from it being winter in the first place can neither be removed nor lowered.
Raichu1972 said:
I have an unfortunate feeling that a good chunk of the playerbase will enjoy a trait that gives justification to "hard men making hard decisions" even if it's not entirely warranted.

People tend to get bloodthirsty in quests in general, but I find that it's especially pronounced in civ quests like this one.

Source: am a Paths of Civilization vet :V
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It's not about making hard decisions, but about going that extra mile to damage your enemies with intentionally cruel means. Like, you know, trying to starve a tribe to death while you are in the middle of a food crisis yourself. That takes spite.
 
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Azel said:
It's not about making hard decisions, but about going that extra mile to damage your enemies with intentionally cruel means. Like, you know, trying to starve a tribe to death while you are in the middle of a food crisis yourself. That takes spite.
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That is not spite, it is intelligent, practical and realistic.

Snowfox said it himself, if they want you dead and you want them dead, then it doesn't matter how it happens.

Your duty is to ensure that as few of you die as possible and as many of them die as possible until you are no longer in that altercation.

If you aren't willing to do that then maybe you shouldn't be fighting in the first place, and if the other party still wants to fight and you don't act to the limit of your means then you value their lives, the way they die or the way third parties would perceive their deaths over the lives of of your own people.

May as well surrender and save everyone the hassle, really it's your duty to your conviction to surrender immediately because that will cause less suffering and less deaths overall, at most 50% of the combined forces if they slaughter you to the last.
 
Azel said:
It's not about making hard decisions, but about going that extra mile to damage your enemies with intentionally cruel means. Like, you know, trying to starve a tribe to death while you are in the middle of a food crisis yourself. That takes spite.
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Sorry, Mr. GM, but that just sounds stupid. Vlad Tepes-- Chinggis Khan-- Darius the Great may have been cruel, but their cruelty had a purpose beyond just spite. Vlad, for example, was the beleaguered prince of a spit of land north of the Greatest Empire in Europe at the time; his cruelty was just using psychological warfare to make the most of what he had. Or Chinggis Khan had far fewer troops than he needed to garrison and secure the empire his generals were carving out for him; his cruelty to towns that wouldn't surrender was to project more might than he actually had on hand (historians think that the Mongol forces were much smaller than their enemies realized; it was just the magnificent mobility that made their armies seem much bigger).

I hope that this kind of ruthlessness is only for the fad version and that when it becomes an Ideal we'll be able to choose something along the lines of having no taboos in war or using everything on hand, no matter how despicable, to counter a foe. Like strapping captured enemies to our shields in battle (when we get shields) or using punji traps, that sort of thing.
 
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Basically, All War should be Total War or you're just playing a morbid game and that's waaaaaaaay more fucked up than burning food in winter.

[X] Duesal

If it was a matter of reward vs reward I'd go with Bear Hunt because the malus negation is so low but we have the risk of an intelligent enemy now and we might need defenders on hand and the Armor.
 
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