Sabertooth
Currently on a road trip with Magnus the Red
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- Portugal
The theory has it that they are made of chimeric gene seed from traitor legions.
Sympathy for the heretic
- Thread starter BiopunkOtrera
- Start date
- Essay
The theory has it that they are made of chimeric gene seed from traitor legions.
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- Mid-Atlantic
Given that the original question was "how do the High Lords ensure that they are completely loyal..."
THAT ONLY RAISES MORE QUESTIONS!!!
Unless your theory is that the High Lords are using "yeah, we totally based the Minotaurs off a genetic cocktail of the World Eaters, the Death Guard, and the Luna Wolves" as blackmail material in hopes that if the Minotaurs ever go off-base, they'll get mobbed and torn apart by everyone who sees them as Chaos Marines waiting to happen.
I suppose that's fair, though it kind of does tie into the question of "what is/is-not wrong with the entire concept of Imperial characters being sympathetic?"
Two of the big recurring observations in this thread over the 4-5 years it's been going on are that:
1) On the one hand, the portrayal of sympathetic Imperial characters in the 40k lore plays a big role in why people think of the Imperium as a fundamentally "acceptable" institution instead of, y'know, "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."
2) On the other hand, the sheer fashness of the Imperium means that it is difficult if not impossible, when you really think about it, to be a categorically and truly good person while acting within its machinery.
Ciaphas Cain is a very good illustration of both principles.
Sabertooth
Currently on a road trip with Magnus the Red
- Location
- Portugal
Sorry, forgot to add the word "loyalist". The running theory was that the Minotaurs are made up of chimeric geneseed from loyalist elements of traitor legions.
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I'm not sure that makes it better. If there's this one platoon of World Eaters who didn't go all BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD along with the rest of the legion, is it because there's something in their DNA that makes them super-loyal, or is it because Big Papa Angron didn't actually walk over to them and say "we are BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GODDING now, grab your axes."
I'm just not seeing how any of this helps. Some of the loyalist legions (e.g. Blood Angels and Wolf Wolf Wolves) were just as fucked up genetically speaking as some of the traitor legions (there was nothing that physically weird about, say, the Iron Warriors).
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Sabertooth
Currently on a road trip with Magnus the Red
- Location
- Portugal
The World Eaters, amusingly had the highest percentage of loyalist marines of all the traitor legions. They never liked Angron that much to be fair.
But like you said, it does not make it better, the Minotaurs are huge assholes and within the Space Marines, that bar is set pretty high.
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I don't think the Minotaurs loyalty is particularly inexplicable. The Minotaurs are kept loyal because they're 1 singular chapter that's unpopular with basically everyone except the High Lords who instead shower them with gifts and favor. So they have to remain loyal to the Lords, and in the mean time they get more/better equipment than a normal chapter, better deployments, etc.
Them being made from a bunch of loyalist elements of traitor legions isn't really part of it. And to a degree, I think that element is getting a bit over used: aren't the Grey Knights also from loyalist elements of the traitor legions? And what benefit would that be for the Minotaurs in particular, as opposed to just being a relatively 'normal' group?
Warhammer AU: Dark Age of Humanity
Loyalist Space Marines
Loyal to Terra, of course.
After Guilliman was wounded and placed in stasis, the Loyalist Legions began to draw away from Terra. Guilliman had maintained some degree of control over his fellow loyalists by simply giving them orders that they wanted to carry out. Lion El'Johnson was granted carte blanche to hunt the Traitor Legions and fight Chaos, Russ was exiled far from Terra and his fellow Primarchs, and Corvus Corax was essentially allowed to secede as long as he promised to ride to the rescue in future emergencies. Guilliman led the remaining Legions through consensus rather than strict command, permitting them substantial independence even as he built relationships that permitted him some degree of control.
The system was dangerously dependent upon a Big Man. A Big Man who was driven to lead from the front. After his grievous injuries at the hands of the Traitor Primarchs Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, the Imperium was left headless. Rogal Dorn had already departed to Cadia, taking up his duty as Warden of the Eye. Much to the relief of the Imperium's rulers, he had no intention of returning to Terra. Vulkan had departed on a desperate quest to restore the Emperor, leaving no Primarch to take up the reins of government.
Or at least no suitable Primarch. Lion El'Johnson was waging his own war, Russ was a disgraced exile who despised the "soft" Terran bureacracy, and Corax was an open enemy of Terra's power. Under the circumstances, the High Lords were reluctantly forced to take the burden of government on their own shoulders, until Lord Guilliman should recover or Lord Dorn return.
The Salamanders were the first Legion to leave, evacuating their holdings in Segmentum Solar and formally seceding from the "corrupt, fallen Imperium". The Blood Angels were the second, rebelling against the growing persecution of "mutants". Though the Iron Warriors did not flee as a united Legion, more and more of their Companies began to depart from Segmentum Solar, joining Dorn at the front lines or finding homes in other Segmentums.
It is difficult to overstate the loss of legitimacy. The Loyal Legions were held up as exemplars, holy warriors who had remained true to the Emperor. Imperial propaganda emphasized the honor and strength of these righteous warriors, and their continued allegiance to Terra played a vital role in discouraging secession. Innumerable political disputes had been resolved through the intervention of the Astartes; where mere men would have been greeted with lasfire, the arrival of a Holy Angel was cause for celebration and often religious veneration.
If Holy Terra could not command the fealty of Astartes, then the High Lords were not the rightful regents of the Emperor, Beloved of All. A vast propaganda campaign began, declaring that the remaining "loyalists" were representative of their Legions, and that those who departed were a small minority of heretical traitors. At the same time, the High Lords worked frantically to bolster the ranks of the remaining Space Marines, desperate to restore their strength and image before they lost more sectors.
The new Astartes would be subjected to extensive hypno-conditioning, implanting an instinctual hatred of the alien. They would be indoctrinated ceaselessly in the doctrines of the new Imperium, so that they would not consider rebellion. This met with mixed results. While the ingrained hatred of "xenos" was largely successful, no amount of brainwashing could create genuine loyalty to the High Lords. A committee of bickering, selfish bureaucrats did not inspire reverence. While the new Astartes generally believe in the dogma of the Imperium of Man, it is easy enough for them to see how the High Lords fail to live up to their own ideals.
After the Departure, the Senatorum divided the Astartes into Chapters. Each Chapter is limited to only a thousand Space Marines, so that no single leader will wield the power of a Legion.
Loyalist Space Marines Chapters
Minotaurs
The favorite Chapter of the High Lords, they are distinguished by their fondness for fratricide. The Minotaurs delight in battle against their fellow Space Marines, and they obey the High Lords because their service provides many opportunities for such conflict. As the favorites, they enjoy the finest equipment, and when they deploy as a united Chapter there are few foes who can stand against them.
Flesh Tearers
Formed from the elements of the Blood Angels who liked the Imperium's new direction, they are a collection of monsters, lunatics, and torturers. Though they hold no regard for the corrupt, frail High Lords, they despise the alien, the mutant, the psyker. The Flesh Tearers recruit from a so-called "Feral World", and they idealize the perceived strength that comes from suffering and brutality. They enforce Imperial Compliance through terror and destruction, caring nothing for fine distinctions of guilt; the laborer who failed to prevent a Governor from consorting with xenos will suffer for his sin, and his protestations of ignorance of powerlessness will fall on deaf ears.
Angels Vermillion
They're vampires.
The Angels Vermillion found a "cure" for the Red Thirst. It is possible for a Son of Sanguinius to deal with their dreadful hunger for blood...by drinking the lifeblood of mortals. This "cure" was not acceptable to most of the Blood Angels, but a few embraced the possibility. They could regulate and control their bloodlust, and so preserve their Legion.
By quietly sanctioning this practice, the High Lords won the allegiance of the Angels Vermillion. They are reliable, savage, and terrifying enforcers, though they will not obey commands to wage war against the Blood Angels. The Angels feed in grand rituals where they reaffirm their loyalty to the God-Emperor and proclaim the necessity of sacrifice to defend mankind. Having embraced the logic of necessity, they will commit any atrocity in the name of victory, though they generally lack the sheer sadism of the Flesh Tearers or the Minotaurs.
Astral Claws
They were beloved.
Brutally competent conquerors. Surprisingly capable administrators. As their power grew over the centuries, they made no effort to secede from the Imperium or deny the authority of the High Lords. Chapter Master Lufgt Huron brought entire sectors into obedience through a combination of pitiless slaughter and cunning diplomacy, earning the praise of his masters.
After a particularly glorious campaign, he was summoned to the Grand Chamber of the Senatorum Imperialis to receive the thanks of the High Lords in person. Huron gave a short, simple speech discussing the virtues of discipline, courage, and unwavering dedication to the vision of Imperial Unification. He then proposed the elimination of the main obstacle standing in the way of that vision.
The High Lords. With the aid of the Lord Commander Militant, Huron had smuggled his Astral Claws onto the soil of Holy Terra. They stormed the Imperial Palace, slaughtered the guards, and declared Huron Lord Commander of the Imperium, rightful heir to Guilliman. As the news spread beyond the Palace, Terra received their new overlord with remarkable calm. Few loved the High Lords, and fewer still were eager to give their lives to preserve a hated and corrupt government.
After brutally crushing any hint of disobedience, Huron proceeded to show what the Imperium was capable of when it was led by a superhuman general rather than a committee of paranoid bureaucrats. The sectors around Segmentum Solar rapidly came to recognize that Huron was a reasonable lord and a terrifying enemy. Many who were not conquered bent the knee to avoid the wrath of the Astral Claws, who were growing towards the strength of a Legion.
Huron's century of iron-fisted rule ended above Hydraphur. As the great naval fortress fell to the fury of the Astral Claws and a reborn Imperial Navy, he was greeted by unexpected guests. The Raven Guard Legion emerged from the Warp, a host of transhuman warriors led by their Primarch. Corvus Corax was a creature of shadows and knives, having walked the Path of Ascension and discarded the frailties of the flesh.
The battle raged through space, and the Astral Claws were holding their own until Corax tore his way into the bridge of Huron's Blackstone Fortress. The psykers Huron had gathered to banish him fell to their knees, weeping in awe at the sight of the Emperor's Beloved Son, and Huron fought valiantly to the very end. His death signaled the retreat of his forces, who managed a fighting retreat with heavy losses.
It was the beginning of the end. With Huron gone and the Astral Claws greatly weakened, the many enemies of the Imperium turned upon their tyrants. Rebellion raged through the conquered sectors, and within Segmentum Solar the Adeptus rose up against their Astartes masters. When the wars died down, Terra was left at her weakest, without control of most of Segmentum Solar. The Guard and Navy were leashed again, more savagely than ever, while a thousand new warlords founded their own empires.
The Astral Claws fled to Babab, where they established an empire that endures to this day.
Loyalist Space Marines
Loyal to Terra, of course.
After Guilliman was wounded and placed in stasis, the Loyalist Legions began to draw away from Terra. Guilliman had maintained some degree of control over his fellow loyalists by simply giving them orders that they wanted to carry out. Lion El'Johnson was granted carte blanche to hunt the Traitor Legions and fight Chaos, Russ was exiled far from Terra and his fellow Primarchs, and Corvus Corax was essentially allowed to secede as long as he promised to ride to the rescue in future emergencies. Guilliman led the remaining Legions through consensus rather than strict command, permitting them substantial independence even as he built relationships that permitted him some degree of control.
The system was dangerously dependent upon a Big Man. A Big Man who was driven to lead from the front. After his grievous injuries at the hands of the Traitor Primarchs Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, the Imperium was left headless. Rogal Dorn had already departed to Cadia, taking up his duty as Warden of the Eye. Much to the relief of the Imperium's rulers, he had no intention of returning to Terra. Vulkan had departed on a desperate quest to restore the Emperor, leaving no Primarch to take up the reins of government.
Or at least no suitable Primarch. Lion El'Johnson was waging his own war, Russ was a disgraced exile who despised the "soft" Terran bureacracy, and Corax was an open enemy of Terra's power. Under the circumstances, the High Lords were reluctantly forced to take the burden of government on their own shoulders, until Lord Guilliman should recover or Lord Dorn return.
The Salamanders were the first Legion to leave, evacuating their holdings in Segmentum Solar and formally seceding from the "corrupt, fallen Imperium". The Blood Angels were the second, rebelling against the growing persecution of "mutants". Though the Iron Warriors did not flee as a united Legion, more and more of their Companies began to depart from Segmentum Solar, joining Dorn at the front lines or finding homes in other Segmentums.
It is difficult to overstate the loss of legitimacy. The Loyal Legions were held up as exemplars, holy warriors who had remained true to the Emperor. Imperial propaganda emphasized the honor and strength of these righteous warriors, and their continued allegiance to Terra played a vital role in discouraging secession. Innumerable political disputes had been resolved through the intervention of the Astartes; where mere men would have been greeted with lasfire, the arrival of a Holy Angel was cause for celebration and often religious veneration.
If Holy Terra could not command the fealty of Astartes, then the High Lords were not the rightful regents of the Emperor, Beloved of All. A vast propaganda campaign began, declaring that the remaining "loyalists" were representative of their Legions, and that those who departed were a small minority of heretical traitors. At the same time, the High Lords worked frantically to bolster the ranks of the remaining Space Marines, desperate to restore their strength and image before they lost more sectors.
The new Astartes would be subjected to extensive hypno-conditioning, implanting an instinctual hatred of the alien. They would be indoctrinated ceaselessly in the doctrines of the new Imperium, so that they would not consider rebellion. This met with mixed results. While the ingrained hatred of "xenos" was largely successful, no amount of brainwashing could create genuine loyalty to the High Lords. A committee of bickering, selfish bureaucrats did not inspire reverence. While the new Astartes generally believe in the dogma of the Imperium of Man, it is easy enough for them to see how the High Lords fail to live up to their own ideals.
After the Departure, the Senatorum divided the Astartes into Chapters. Each Chapter is limited to only a thousand Space Marines, so that no single leader will wield the power of a Legion.
Loyalist Space Marines Chapters
Minotaurs
The favorite Chapter of the High Lords, they are distinguished by their fondness for fratricide. The Minotaurs delight in battle against their fellow Space Marines, and they obey the High Lords because their service provides many opportunities for such conflict. As the favorites, they enjoy the finest equipment, and when they deploy as a united Chapter there are few foes who can stand against them.
Flesh Tearers
Formed from the elements of the Blood Angels who liked the Imperium's new direction, they are a collection of monsters, lunatics, and torturers. Though they hold no regard for the corrupt, frail High Lords, they despise the alien, the mutant, the psyker. The Flesh Tearers recruit from a so-called "Feral World", and they idealize the perceived strength that comes from suffering and brutality. They enforce Imperial Compliance through terror and destruction, caring nothing for fine distinctions of guilt; the laborer who failed to prevent a Governor from consorting with xenos will suffer for his sin, and his protestations of ignorance of powerlessness will fall on deaf ears.
Angels Vermillion
They're vampires.
The Angels Vermillion found a "cure" for the Red Thirst. It is possible for a Son of Sanguinius to deal with their dreadful hunger for blood...by drinking the lifeblood of mortals. This "cure" was not acceptable to most of the Blood Angels, but a few embraced the possibility. They could regulate and control their bloodlust, and so preserve their Legion.
By quietly sanctioning this practice, the High Lords won the allegiance of the Angels Vermillion. They are reliable, savage, and terrifying enforcers, though they will not obey commands to wage war against the Blood Angels. The Angels feed in grand rituals where they reaffirm their loyalty to the God-Emperor and proclaim the necessity of sacrifice to defend mankind. Having embraced the logic of necessity, they will commit any atrocity in the name of victory, though they generally lack the sheer sadism of the Flesh Tearers or the Minotaurs.
Astral Claws
They were beloved.
Brutally competent conquerors. Surprisingly capable administrators. As their power grew over the centuries, they made no effort to secede from the Imperium or deny the authority of the High Lords. Chapter Master Lufgt Huron brought entire sectors into obedience through a combination of pitiless slaughter and cunning diplomacy, earning the praise of his masters.
After a particularly glorious campaign, he was summoned to the Grand Chamber of the Senatorum Imperialis to receive the thanks of the High Lords in person. Huron gave a short, simple speech discussing the virtues of discipline, courage, and unwavering dedication to the vision of Imperial Unification. He then proposed the elimination of the main obstacle standing in the way of that vision.
The High Lords. With the aid of the Lord Commander Militant, Huron had smuggled his Astral Claws onto the soil of Holy Terra. They stormed the Imperial Palace, slaughtered the guards, and declared Huron Lord Commander of the Imperium, rightful heir to Guilliman. As the news spread beyond the Palace, Terra received their new overlord with remarkable calm. Few loved the High Lords, and fewer still were eager to give their lives to preserve a hated and corrupt government.
After brutally crushing any hint of disobedience, Huron proceeded to show what the Imperium was capable of when it was led by a superhuman general rather than a committee of paranoid bureaucrats. The sectors around Segmentum Solar rapidly came to recognize that Huron was a reasonable lord and a terrifying enemy. Many who were not conquered bent the knee to avoid the wrath of the Astral Claws, who were growing towards the strength of a Legion.
Huron's century of iron-fisted rule ended above Hydraphur. As the great naval fortress fell to the fury of the Astral Claws and a reborn Imperial Navy, he was greeted by unexpected guests. The Raven Guard Legion emerged from the Warp, a host of transhuman warriors led by their Primarch. Corvus Corax was a creature of shadows and knives, having walked the Path of Ascension and discarded the frailties of the flesh.
The battle raged through space, and the Astral Claws were holding their own until Corax tore his way into the bridge of Huron's Blackstone Fortress. The psykers Huron had gathered to banish him fell to their knees, weeping in awe at the sight of the Emperor's Beloved Son, and Huron fought valiantly to the very end. His death signaled the retreat of his forces, who managed a fighting retreat with heavy losses.
It was the beginning of the end. With Huron gone and the Astral Claws greatly weakened, the many enemies of the Imperium turned upon their tyrants. Rebellion raged through the conquered sectors, and within Segmentum Solar the Adeptus rose up against their Astartes masters. When the wars died down, Terra was left at her weakest, without control of most of Segmentum Solar. The Guard and Navy were leashed again, more savagely than ever, while a thousand new warlords founded their own empires.
The Astral Claws fled to Babab, where they established an empire that endures to this day.
Multiple times in Perlia, via seating and army deployment arrangements, basically any time he gets in a vehicle. Perlia and For The Emperor being the ones I recently read where he does it multiple times.
There's also just different forms of cowardice. You can be really scared of dying, but also have such a strong sense of compassion that it overrides your fear if you see the awfulness happening, but when you're more distant and rational, you make much more cold, calculating decisions because you're not in the moment, you're able to make the call based on your overall preference, not your immediate _I don't want them to die_ horror.
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@dptullos , good one. I like the idea of flipping characters like Vandire and Huron around into "grey" characters who are arguably trying to make the Imperium better, but the nature of the beast is such that appalling destruction becomes part of the process and then they die.
Also, the High Lords of Terra have, well, legitimacy. They are, in point of fact, collectively the government of the Imperium. It is not particularly unusual or outstanding for any Imperial institution to do what they say, even if the general fuckery and poor communications and slow travel times of the Imperium mean that most of the time local rulers are more or less on their own.
That part is compatible with my point.
Also, the High Lords of Terra have, well, legitimacy. They are, in point of fact, collectively the government of the Imperium. It is not particularly unusual or outstanding for any Imperial institution to do what they say, even if the general fuckery and poor communications and slow travel times of the Imperium mean that most of the time local rulers are more or less on their own.
This was the core point of my previous post.
Well, what I'm getting at is that I would want to do a close read of the text itself, to form my own opinions about what is said, and I haven't read most of this stuff in 10-15 years.
Theoretically, but I've never thought of "Cain is just super-compassionate about things that happen in front of him, to the point that it overrides his cold, sober judgment made before the event happened" as a more likely explanation for his character than "Cain actually does give a shit about other people's lives and doesn't actively think of them as human shields."
It's been a while since I read the novels but the kind of central thrust was "Cain writes about how much of a coward he is while throwing himself in the lion's mouth again and again to protect others" with the occasional "accidentally finds an entire ork infestation while slacking on regular duty and singlehandedly fights them all off."
Thank you!
I think part of it is how you define "grey". For the most part, canon falls into the trap of "loyal=good, traitor=bad". Even as authors cheerfully portray horrible atrocities, there's still a baseline assumption that the Bad People break the rules and defy the Proper Order of Things. So a rebellious governor is Bad for rising against the High Lords, just as the High Lords are Bad for rebelling against Guilliman.
In my AU, Vandire is genuinely trying to overthrow an awful system and replace it with something better. It's just that fixing things is really, really hard, and he's surrounded by monsters who only obey him because he's the biggest monster.
Huron displays the limits of Imperial brainwashing. "Hate the alien" is simple enough, and "conquer the galaxy" was quite reasonable. It's "venerate the High Lords" that creates a problem. The High Lords aren't figures of awe and majesty; they're a bunch of bureaucrats who are good at political infighting. The Imperium needed to unite the galaxy and destroy all of mankind's enemies, and yet they insisted on a divided chain of command and political officers.
Clearly, they weren't strong enough to maintain their power without crippling the military, which meant they weren't strong enough to fulfill their duty to the Emperor. Which meant they needed to be replaced by someone who was strong enough.
The High Lords are the Imperium as a defeated, crumbling empire; Huron was the Imperium as a restored empire, a terror to all the neighbors. In many ways, he was the perfect New Space Marine the High Lords sought to create.
Also I suggested something like the RH Flawless Host to basically show at a sector or galactic scale how terrifying and messed up it would be to live in a empire led by Astartes only and show how Astartes really shouldn't be rulers of mortals.That said though I also wanted to show that they were capable of doing good.Granted these were only suggestion to dptullos and I don;tknow how much my comments effected this piece specifically
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Not gonna lie, I have trouble parsing what's going on in that piece you linked, and to what level it's "Space Marines shouldn't rule mortals" versus "40k be fucked in general."
Where Are They Now?
Night Lords
The modern Imperium is exactly what Konrad Curze wanted; a xenophobic monstrosity that kills every alien they meet.
The Night Lords are always happy to be of service. Many genocide expeditions have gone forth to wipe out alien life, only to find that the planet has already been cleared for human settlement. Dark Eldar raiders have been met with atrocities that impress even the drukhari, and Night Lords routinely "cleanse" aristocrats corrupted by Tau agents. Curze's sons are devoted defenders of the Imperium, and their methods are hardly beyond the pale.
Yet they are greeted with extraordinary ingratitude. On one notable occasion, devout Imperial loyalists allied with the Tau, claiming that "the alien is less vile than the traitors, who turned their swords against the Blessed Emperor Himself". Despite thousands of years of dedicated service, the Imperium continues to reject the offered hand of friendship.
There was a brief moment of optimism during the Purification, when a faction of radicals seized control of the Senatorum and declared an Eternal Crusade. Led by the Inquisitorial Representative, these High Lords claimed that political secessionists were merely misguided children, while the alien was the Eternal Enemy of Mankind. Only through increased slaughter could Holy Terra regain her past glories and purify the galaxy for mankind.
With covert aid from the Night Lords, the Inquisitorial Representative prepared half a hundred Judgement Fleets. These ships would be sent forth to target weak, vulnerable xenos races lurking in the corners of the galaxy, enemies who had been overlooked in favor of regaining lost human worlds. Their deaths would be a blessing to mankind. And, of course, a tribute to the Emperor, Beloved of All.
At the ceremony that marked the departure of the Judgement Fleets, Lion El'Johnson walked into the Grand Chamber of the Senatorum Imperialis, killed the ruling faction of High Lords, and informed the survivors of Curze's plan. He then walked out without another word.
Since then, Curze has been forced to settle for working on his own. The Dark Angels hunt him relentlessly through the Materium, while Curze and his Raven Guard wait within the Sea of Souls. It is hard to bear up under such relentless, unjustified persecution, but a true servant of humanity does not waver in his duty.
Night Lords
The modern Imperium is exactly what Konrad Curze wanted; a xenophobic monstrosity that kills every alien they meet.
The Night Lords are always happy to be of service. Many genocide expeditions have gone forth to wipe out alien life, only to find that the planet has already been cleared for human settlement. Dark Eldar raiders have been met with atrocities that impress even the drukhari, and Night Lords routinely "cleanse" aristocrats corrupted by Tau agents. Curze's sons are devoted defenders of the Imperium, and their methods are hardly beyond the pale.
Yet they are greeted with extraordinary ingratitude. On one notable occasion, devout Imperial loyalists allied with the Tau, claiming that "the alien is less vile than the traitors, who turned their swords against the Blessed Emperor Himself". Despite thousands of years of dedicated service, the Imperium continues to reject the offered hand of friendship.
There was a brief moment of optimism during the Purification, when a faction of radicals seized control of the Senatorum and declared an Eternal Crusade. Led by the Inquisitorial Representative, these High Lords claimed that political secessionists were merely misguided children, while the alien was the Eternal Enemy of Mankind. Only through increased slaughter could Holy Terra regain her past glories and purify the galaxy for mankind.
With covert aid from the Night Lords, the Inquisitorial Representative prepared half a hundred Judgement Fleets. These ships would be sent forth to target weak, vulnerable xenos races lurking in the corners of the galaxy, enemies who had been overlooked in favor of regaining lost human worlds. Their deaths would be a blessing to mankind. And, of course, a tribute to the Emperor, Beloved of All.
At the ceremony that marked the departure of the Judgement Fleets, Lion El'Johnson walked into the Grand Chamber of the Senatorum Imperialis, killed the ruling faction of High Lords, and informed the survivors of Curze's plan. He then walked out without another word.
Since then, Curze has been forced to settle for working on his own. The Dark Angels hunt him relentlessly through the Materium, while Curze and his Raven Guard wait within the Sea of Souls. It is hard to bear up under such relentless, unjustified persecution, but a true servant of humanity does not waver in his duty.
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- Mid-Atlantic
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- Somewhere
I'm remembering recently an old Dr. Who/40K oneshot, where everyone assumes that GW/Black Library canon is the truth, but actually the "Horus Heresy" is a lie made up by the High Lords of Terra and those Primarchs who sided with them, while the real Emperor and his loyalists were actually going to be creating "The Second Great and Benevolent Terran Empire", one far more egalitarian than the Highlords wanted. (In other words without them on top). So the "Traitor" Primarchs are all either dead or resistance leaders, and the "loyalists" likewise either dead or corrupt.
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I mean... maybe.
Was the original intention "let's think about how to rehabilitate Chaos?"
Or was the original intention "let's think about how to explore the fact that the Imperium is not, you know, good?"
Because one thing Dptullos is doing a lot of is taking fairly basic facts about the Imperium ("Guard regiments are highly specialized so that no one regiment is plausibly capable of rebellion, despite the obvious disadvantages for combat effectiveness") and running with them to highlight just how dysfunctional the Imperium is as a polity.
And like with this recent piece about the Night Haunters, it makes it very obvious that Curze is a bad guy and that the Imperium effectively agrees with him, with the sole caveat being that they don't like his face personally, because they are also the bad guys, and the only good guys in the setting are the ones who've said "fuck this noise" and checked out of the Imperial hierarchy entirely.
Importantly, by breaking down the contradictory 'canon' idea that the Imperium is simultaneously totally dysfunctional and vicious as a state and also totally capable of suppressing rebellions against its authority by non-Chaos actors, Dptullos does something that I think is in keeping with the original goals of this thread. Namely, he creates a version of the setting in which it is possible for good humans to exist, without having to carry the Imperium's evil baggage with them, or imply that this evil baggage is actually good. He can paint the Imperium as bad precisely because it is not totalizing; there is no "even if the Imperium is just the worst imaginable regime, you still have to support it if you want humans to live" going on.
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- He/They
This, it was definitively this.
Where Are They Now
Raven Guard
Corvus Corax never liked the Imperium.
The Imperial aristocracy reminded him of the tech-lords he had overthrown, and he described the warlords as "slaver filth". He deliberately murdered parts of his own Legion and replaced them with recruits from worlds he liberated.
The Ravenlord (he hated the nickname) regarded the Emperor as a blind fool so focused on the future that he ignored the present. Corax argued with the Emperor whenever they met, and he openly refused to conquer worlds for the "Greater Good of Mankind". He was hated by the Imperial aristocracy, the mortal officer corps, and many of his "brothers".
The Emperor found him immensely frustrating, yet he also admired Corax. His unbending determination to do the right thing regardless of the cost was very different from the Emperor's attitude, but he could respect Corax's devotion to human welfare. While many of his Primarchs fell prey to xenophobia, Corax held no hatred towards aliens. His Raven Guard were often selected for missions that required cooperation with alien allies, and they were widely beloved by the general population.
Corax refused to conquer worlds for the Imperium, so he spent the Great Crusade murdering tyrants. If some of those tyrants were Imperial, the net result was still beneficial for the Imperium, and Corax did not kill without cause. Given the vast number of truly horrible people, he was not targeting "mild" despots. When Corax painted a throne room with the blood of a particularly horrible governor, the Emperor didn't lose sleep over it.
Corax was not charming or personable. He had a deeply flawed, homicidal vision for the galaxy, and he was downright eager to solve problems with murder. Only Angron liked him. They fought together on many occasions, force and savagery matched with stealth and cunning, and they got along.
The Raven Guard suffered greatly during the Heresy, as Corax found himself matched against a genius that eclipsed his own. Horus was simply better than the Ravenlord, and Corax became desperate for some way to level the playing field. In defiance of the Emperor's command, he sought the power of the Warp, embracing his full psychic potential as a Primarch.
When the Siege ended, there was an energetic discussion about his decision. Lion El'Johnson wanted him dead, and he had the means to do it. Rogal Dorn and Leman Russ sided with the Lion, while Vulkan was willing to fight with Corax. Guilliman solved the problem in a simple, efficient fashion; a divorce.
Corax and anyone who wanted to go with him would depart in pursuit of the Traitor Legions. He would not officially secede from the Imperium. He would be assigned to hunt the traitors permanently, and he would swear a great vow not to return to Terra until the last traitor was dead. On the happy day that the last traitor was dead, they would honor him greatly and he would still not return to Terra.
Corvus Corax agreed without hesitation. He had his Legion and his freedom, and he was planning on hunting the traitors anyway. The Raven Guard departed Terra, and most of Corax's followers (he never called them sons) followed him along the Path of Ascension.
They hunt the Night Lords in the Sea of Souls. They fight the Sons of Horus within the Eye of Terror, though they have the worst of it unless Corax himself joins the fight. The Raven Guard wage war unending against the Four and their followers, and they have been known to make...visits to the Imperium. It was Corax who slew Lord Commander Huron, bringing an end to his reborn empire.
Corax is officially a Loyal Son, and the Ecclesiarchy continues to honor him. They just...don't mention any of the details.
The High Lords do not make Chapters with Corax's geneseed. After the defection of the Dusk Raptors and the Execution of the Carcahedrons, they have decided to avoid the Ravenlord's personal attention.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm.
I dunno. Maybe it's because I'm looking at Dptullos' version of the Imperium and seeing a lot of good launch points for how to use it as the launchpad for a Chaos-centric and Chaos-sympathetic take. Because, again, removing the Imperium's claim to totality, to being "the only way," immediately destroys the credibility of a lot of what it says about many things, including Chaos.. Portraying the Imperium as just another crumbling empire ruled by contemptible people who use contemptible means to achieve contemptible ends works perfectly well with that.
Sabertooth
Currently on a road trip with Magnus the Red
- Location
- Portugal
So AU Corax is a murderBatman done "right"?
You've missed some things.
In the AU, Chaos is a force of transformation. It permits you to transcend humanity and become something other, free from the weakness of mortal flesh. Chaos is a choice.
Horus didn't become a monster because of Chaos. Horus became a monster because he was already monstrous, and the power of the Warp just allowed him to pursue that path. To become more of what he already was, free from doubt and fear and hesitation. Chaos does not damn you, but you may build the road to your own damnation. That's what freedom means.
Corax was a homicidal maniac with good intentions, a freedom fighter who distrusted governments and disliked compromise. He came to see every problem as something he could solve by killing someone and writing a neat list of their crimes on the roof. In their blood.
He chose to become a kind of Fury, a monster that terrorized the guilty. At least according to Corax's standards of "guilty", which were seriously flawed but not terrible. In a sense, he "died" when he reached the end of his Path. He took the final step of his own will, knowing what it meant, and he gained tremendous power at the cost of losing free choice.
Lion El'Johnson thinks that Chaos is terrifying and that no one should be allowed to walk the Path. There is a lot of evidence supporting this position. It's all well and good to argue for the glories of transformation, but the Rangdan embraced "ascension", and the galaxy still remembers the terror of their pale ships. Shaping your own soul is an incredibly dangerous process, and if you get it wrong you are likely to lose the parts of you that understand why it is a bad idea.
Corvus Corax thinks that the power of the Warp is absolutely dangerous. Because people are dangerous. The bloody-handed tyranny of the Imperium has done far more harm than the Rangdan, and their rulers don't walk the Path of Ascension. Shaping your soul is not safe or easy, but you can't let the tyrants have a monopoly on that kind of power. How much harm would Curze have done over the centuries, if Corax was not there to fight him?
The powers of evil are ascendant in the Warp, but that's because the powers of evil are ascendant in the material universe.
- Location
- Russia
I mean, the Interex in Horus' part were exactly that. At least as far as I can tell.
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