- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Okay, but how is the story being m/m disallowing bisexuals as an answer? What, is one not bisexual if they do not have both a female and male romantic relationship simultaneously?
SV has an odd problem
Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
...honey... bi men... loving men... is m/m...
Sweet pea...
Also, why're you still here?
What happened to this.
Last edited:
Next time I run a game elves will be 100% male, 100% gay, and also spore based. Thank you for the inspiration.
- Location
- HELL
- Pronouns
- They/It
This isn't quite the slam dunk you were hoping for, considering in like the very next line you still discount people who are bi. Like intended or no it comes across like being bi somehow makes them Less Queer.
Like haha, sorry, being queer yourself doesn't shield you from criticism, nor does it shield you from the fact that your arguments were terrible and still say some pretty awful shit.
see: legions and legions of gay people shitting on bi and trans people.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
I actually do think Tolkien's world building on elven marriage matters. It is after all part of the canon/setting you are engaging with. It is one element in the vast set of elements you can draw from, and I do think there is something to integrating disparate elements from disparate works to weave one coherent whole. In any case, if you want to write something about LotR elves and marriage, it really can't hurt to know and acknowledge what Tolkien thought about that subject.
And having engaged with that piece of canon you can in fact discard it for the purpose of your fic.
But I do think this should stand as a conscious choice, with full acknowledgment of a departure from canon. Basically, I don't think canon should be so much ignored as rather... Once you acknowledge what canon is, then you can select from it. Blergh, I don't think I worded this well, but like that. Invalidating pieces of canon for your "fic canon" is entirely valid, but that shouldn't mean canon is casually dismissed out of hand, and the departures should be acknowledged.
This actually becomes important in discussions like this. Canon as a concept is especially important in discussions about the work, because it provides the underlying framework for the discussion - it provides what is even talked about in the first place. So, if we talk about Legolas and his marriage prospectives here, the underlying framework for that discussion is in fact the LotR canon, because that is the only common base for that talk. As such, Anon is right to bring up canon.
And then a response like "Well, I would change that aspect in my fic/quest" is just as correct.
And having engaged with that piece of canon you can in fact discard it for the purpose of your fic.
But I do think this should stand as a conscious choice, with full acknowledgment of a departure from canon. Basically, I don't think canon should be so much ignored as rather... Once you acknowledge what canon is, then you can select from it. Blergh, I don't think I worded this well, but like that. Invalidating pieces of canon for your "fic canon" is entirely valid, but that shouldn't mean canon is casually dismissed out of hand, and the departures should be acknowledged.
This actually becomes important in discussions like this. Canon as a concept is especially important in discussions about the work, because it provides the underlying framework for the discussion - it provides what is even talked about in the first place. So, if we talk about Legolas and his marriage prospectives here, the underlying framework for that discussion is in fact the LotR canon, because that is the only common base for that talk. As such, Anon is right to bring up canon.
And then a response like "Well, I would change that aspect in my fic/quest" is just as correct.
- Location
- Land of the Midday Sun
Just putting this out there, but tTolkien's view on Elven marriage doesn't really emerges from reading the Silmarillion, LotR or the Hobbit, but it's something that is elaborated in his letters. So while it's "canon" insofar nothing he wrote contraddicts it (except maybe Finwë remmarying. Then again he was a widower.), it's also somewhat closer to a "word of God" statement from the author, a later clarification on the matter. So even in the context of fanfiction discarding this statement isn't that problematic, it's already somewhat obscure and not really evident reading the books.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This juxtaposition is incredibly important for the point that I'm about to make. The reason why your using your queerness as evidence of anything is falling flat is because it isn't how bigotry works. It isn't some binary thing where you can click a YES I'm bigoted or NO I'm not bigoted buttons based upon your LGBT status and call it a day. It's far more complex, with various gradients and degrees and the whole matter is honestly incredibly messy. If I were to try and describe it, it's a bit like a maze constructed by Salvador Dali. And people that try to navigate this maze looking for a way out are liable to wander through confused and perplexed, because they aren't sure exactly what the exit looks like you see, until they wander down the wrong hallway or fall through a trapdoor, and have to completely regroup. In the same way, literally all of us are capable of wandering down that metaphorical wron way and making bigoted statements and internalizing bigoted assumptions. Because bigotry is part of our culture, part of the fabric of society. It makes it easier to fall victim to these subconscious things unless you're really good at self-reflection.
I'm fucking not. I'm a pan woman but that certainly didn't stop me from having a biphobic kick when I was younger. I believed basically every bad thing you've heard about bi people- that I didn't "count", that I needed to "pick a side", all that garbage. And I thought I was bi myself! Isn't that weird? Well it's not so weird when you think about how this is the sort of bigotry that's fed into our culture and as we almost necessarily pick up things from our culture, we often pick up those unconscious bisaes too. It's hard. And this plays really well into what's happening in this conversation about bi people; people are saying that your comments about bi people are rather... an issue. Don't think of it as you being a horrible phobic asshole, think about it in that maybe there's an assumption you're making that isn't totally justified- what broke me out of that spell was not curing myself in any way, but having some self-reflection about things that make sense to believe, and things that don't. Try to approach it like that is what the other users are trying to do here, and approach it in good faith, and you might realize there are one or two silly assumptions attached to your posts, or your mentality, that were completely unintentional, but perhaps skewed or colored your posts. Because as members of society, that can happen to us LGBT+ folks just as often as regular folks, and so you're getting an unimpressed reaction with your... gambit, let's say.
We all get lost in the maze of traversing a society with ingrained homophobia, transphobia, and whatnot. At least accept that being queer doesn't mean you don't need to engage in self-reflection to make sure you aren't getting horribly lost; checking your mental map, as it were. That's all I ask.
Queshire
Wants a pink flamingo for their lawn.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well.... I just skimmed through the first ten or so pages of this thread and HOLY FUCK.
Trying to trace back the current discussion... well, my major question is "half the plot of Naruto requires Naruto's crush on Sakura"? 0.o I'm having a hard time trying to think of any major plot point which wouldn't still happen if Sakura wasn't there.
Trying to trace back the current discussion... well, my major question is "half the plot of Naruto requires Naruto's crush on Sakura"? 0.o I'm having a hard time trying to think of any major plot point which wouldn't still happen if Sakura wasn't there.
Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
Obviously canon would irreversibly shatter if anyone became gay. It'd ruin everything, dude.
Renewal
Boring Person #5883781345
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Adding to what Flare said, I think it's illustrative to consider the famous problem of Tolkien grappling with the nature of orcs: they're the most obvious example of an Always Chaotic Evil race in fiction. And yet, as a devout Catholic, Tolkien struggled to justify that nature: he couldn't ascribe the power to truly create life to the devil/Morgoth, yet God/Eru would never create an innately evil being. He threw together a few ideas over the decades of his work—the most prominent of these being that orcs are corrupted elves, but which obviously has its own wonkiness—but never satisfactorily resolved it before he died.
Now, elven marriage is far less contentious a a topic, but both topics demonstrate why Death of the Author matters: unless the author's ideas are committed to the page, they are fluid and malleable and can be rearranged to suit the story and themes howsoever the author wants. Another example is how JK Rowling's conception of the Harry Potter universe has evolved and shifted, especially as new adapatations like the Cursed Child and Fantastic Beasts are produced without her direct control.
The author's word can be interesting and illuminating, but it's hardly definitive, especially when their very conception and definition of their works is as fluid as all human thinking can be.
- Location
- Somewhere
You would have to figure out how their relationship would change when put together on a team since a gay Naruto wouldn't have a history of pestering her for a date, despite her making it clear she was after Sasuke. So, it would have butterfly effects. I don't mind if you make him gay, just think about how it affects the rest of the story and act accordingly.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Dude. Naruto has likely been pestering her since pre puberty- they are twelve at graduation. The only sensible read I've had of that is he's following cultural memes that suggest he should pester her, because he can't possibly have been acting off sexual attraction initially.
Like, I assume it actually has to do with his social isolation more than anything else.
Likewise Sakura's crush on Sasuke starts so early that this, again, can't have started sexual.
- Location
- Somewhere
If it's based on cultural isolation, shouldn't he be bothering whoever he had a crush on regardless of gender? Or if it's just societal expectations, wouldn't he have tried other girls too? "Puppy love" is a thing, and frequently occurs before puberty really becomes a thing. Hinata's been crushing on Naruto the same length of time after all.
I think it would be interesting to see a Sakura more friendly to Naruto because of the changes, OR one that treats him as a rival the way she did Ino if Naruto is pursuing Sasuke too.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
All of this is ignoring the fact that Ino/Sakura is a great pairing too. 
(I actually am/was something of a Naru-Saku fan, but eh.)
(I actually am/was something of a Naru-Saku fan, but eh.)
- Location
- Somewhere
I have not problem with either pairing, I just want stories that actually take their changes seriously instead of JUST doing it to allow for a pairing.All of this is ignoring the fact that Ino/Sakura is a great pairing too.
(I actually am/was something of a Naru-Saku fan, but eh.)
Mechasaurian
Big Bossu
- Location
- Lost among fields of history
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, something else I've meant to bring up.
People have suggested creating a "LGBTQ" tag to help people find the relevant works. The obvious problem, for course, is that the "L" in there would simply drown out everything else.
Why don't we have more specialized tags? "M/M," "gay male protagonist," that sort of thing?
Indeed, this measure has already been implemented to a degree - we already have a "trans protagonist" tag. Granted, only one thread is using it so far, but it's a start.
People have suggested creating a "LGBTQ" tag to help people find the relevant works. The obvious problem, for course, is that the "L" in there would simply drown out everything else.
Why don't we have more specialized tags? "M/M," "gay male protagonist," that sort of thing?
Indeed, this measure has already been implemented to a degree - we already have a "trans protagonist" tag. Granted, only one thread is using it so far, but it's a start.
Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
This drives me insane.
No, you don't. You can have the gays appear just because you want it. You don't need to make it a profound or plot-changing.
- Location
- Somewhere
Okay, so you think that it changes nothing if a character has a major change in their actions for multiple years prior to the main plot, and think that literally NOTHING will change? This is the sort of thing that people actually complain about in all the shittily written slashfic that set the stereotypes that this thread is working to overcome. Congratulations, you've proven the haters right, it's all about the sex and not about actually writing developed gay protagonists.
I think we are missing the most pertinent thing involving Tolkien, even he didn't care about canon when it got in the way of his story. He famously rewrote the Hobbit and he rewrote it because he didn't like how the 'canon' story of Bilbo went in relation to the sequel. He even gave a half assed retcon that the reason the first edition was wrong it because Bilbo is a lying liar who lies.
- Location
- HELL
- Pronouns
- They/It
Like, yes, performative homophobia exists. Yes, it's a real part of why it's so hard to come out. Yes there are great works that deal with it.
No, you don't need it in order to write a queer story. You can write queerness as completely normalized.
The culture of the story you are writing is your oyster. You can do whatever the fuck you want. You are not constrained by real-world struggles.
Hey, speaking of exhausting shit, I'm really tired of fantasy settings that use sexism as a driving societal force. Again, it's fiction, you can do whatever you want.
If you write it as normal, then you send the message that, yes, it's okay to be this way. Normalizing it does more good than "See, you can go past this bad shit!" Since writing the same auto sexism and homophobia in your stories means that it's still an abnormality. Like, you don't need this to keep happening, guys.
That and it's just fucking lazy worldbuilding.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Can you... not? But, like. There are in fact tons of plots were sexuality changes would change literally nothing, even following your logic and accepting it, which I don't know if I do?
Last edited:
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
I mean, the majority of people writing the "L" on this site aren't really writing it because they care about LGBTQ in the first place? As long as they don't try to passing their stuff off as such in the thread en masse it's not a problem.
- Location
- Somewhere
And those obviously wouldn't need to make any changes. I was writing specifically regarding the Naruto/Sakura thing though. It's VERY much dependant on the source material.Can you... not? But, like. There are in fact tons of plots were sexuality changes would change literally nothing, even following your logic?
- Location
- HELL
- Pronouns
- They/It